Biggest gap between professional & enthusiast?

[blueg33]

Is anyone old enough to remember the TV programme from the 70's "Superstars"?

They pitched elete sports people from different sports against each other in a range of fitness type competitions, eg swimming, running, push ups etc a big range. I seem to recall that Jody Schekter (F1 driver) was frequently the best all rounder.

[HeatonNorris]

blueg33 said:

Is anyone old enough to remember the TV programme from the 70's "Superstars"?

They pitched elete sports people from different sports against each other in a range of fitness type competitions, eg swimming, running, push ups etc a big range. I seem to recall that Jody Schekter (F1 driver) was frequently the best all rounder.

He makes a pretty damned good Buffalo Mozzarella these days

[berry100]

Would struggle to agree any one sport, but besides skill, fitness (sport related ;-) ) etc, what also separates it for me is the mindset and general bottle of the pro's v amateur.....

[berry100]

Cheib said:

No way does snooker have the most differentiation.....your average enthusiast snooker player is a lot closer to a pro than for example a club tennis player is to a pro.

Rubbish.....not saying it has the biggest gap between pro v amateur but the statement around enthusiast and pro is a silly misinformed statement.....

[Tiggsy]

To be fair, I had no idea he paddled his ski. I take it all back

[bigbubba]

Cheib said:

It's a fact that if you sink a 10 foot putt you are performing that task as well as a pro...the difference is that the pro will sink that putt 50% of the time....an 18 handicapper maybe 20%.

You actually know jack about golf don't you?

A golf professional would be suicidal if they only hit 50% of 10ft putts.

If you actually watch tour professionals at practice greens where you can see them hit putt after putt you will see that they get 95% of 10ft putts.

This consistency is impossible for an amateur when you consider that it is not just putting it is every aspect of their game.

[Cheib]

bigbubba said:

Cheib said:

It's a fact that if you sink a 10 foot putt you are performing that task as well as a pro...the difference is that the pro will sink that putt 50% of the time....an 18 handicapper maybe 20%.

You actually know jack about golf don't you?

A golf professional would be suicidal if they only hit 50% of 10ft putts.

If you actually watch tour professionals at practice greens where you can see them hit putt after putt you will see that they get 95% of 10ft putts.

This consistency is impossible for an amateur when you consider that it is not just putting it is every aspect of their game.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear

95% of of 10ft puts

It's you that knows jack about golf

Looks like there are going to be a lot of suicides on the PGA tour......probably all the players

You're so wrong it's not even funny

Check these official stats from the PGA tour

http://www.pgatour.com/r/strokes-gained-putting-ba...

Pro's only actually make 38% of ten foot puts so I was wrong....but not as wrong with you.

The good news is they do make 95% of three foot puts though.

I bet you believe you've got ten inches downstairs don't you....I've got some bad news...it's only three inches

Edited by Cheib on Sunday 22 April 21:21

[taaffy]

Lets put the golf thing in perspective here .... as an ex golf pro .....

Your average enthusiastic amateur playing off a handicap of 12 or 13 around average courses which measure circa 5900- 6300 yards with light rough and greens at a speed of circa 9 on the stimpmeter would not break 100 on the average course that tour players play on.
Average tour courses have yardages of 7100+ and the greens usually run at about 11 to 13 on the stimp and the tour guys are averaging circa 69-71 shots per round.
You will also find that tour courses are set up with virtually no run on the fairways so the courses play their full length.
The average golfer even the big hitters will be lucky to hit it any farther than 260yds even if they think they hit it farther . I drive the ball circa 260-270 yds on average and I can say out of all the times i have played there are only a handful of players who knock it past me and they have been players of a similar standard to me. Yes your higher handicapper may have hit it 300 yds on a dry day with lots of roll, but then I would have hit it 360 yds so its all relative. The tour guys are ranging from 255 -310 yds so not that much longer than me but so much better from 200 yds to the green and just awesome on the greens.

As an amateur now I play off 2 at the 2010 ryder cup course in wales and off the very back championship tees i struggle to make my handicap but still play to about 6 or 7 as it is nearly 7500yds.
Off the medal tees at 7100 i manage just fine, but guests that I have taken (even single figure guys) struggle to break 90 and it is considered an easier tour venue as the fairways are quite generous ..

So unless you have played or have experienced golf at a high standard of play then I'd suggest that opinions mean squat ....
I have played with ex ryder cuppers and they pummel me .....and I can easily break par on an average joe type of golf course ....

So the difference between a top tour pro and your average enthusiastic golfer is massive ......

Put a tour pro on an average course and he would easily be scoring in the high 50's .......fact

Edited by taaffy on Monday 23 April 10:21

[bigbubba]

Cheib said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear

95% of of 10ft puts

It's you that knows jack about golf

Looks like there are going to be a lot of suicides on the PGA tour......probably all the players

You're so wrong it's not even funny

Check these official stats from the PGA tour

http://www.pgatour.com/r/strokes-gained-putting-ba...

Pro's only actually make 38% of ten foot puts so I was wrong....but not as wrong with you.

The good news is they do make 95% of three foot puts though.

I bet you believe you've got ten inches downstairs don't you....I've got some bad news...it's only three inches

Edited by Cheib on Sunday 22 April 21:21

Have you actually watched tour players at practice greens live?

No, didn't think so.

Tiger was famous for his putting practice regime.

He used to set out a cross of balls with the hole in the centre. The closest four balls would be 4 feet from the hole and each leg of the cross would have 10 balls in each 18 inches from previous ball. He would put each ball and if he missed one he would reset the cross.

An amateur would never ever make all 40 putts, no matter how much practice they had.

What is your handicap Cheib, apart from your attitude?

[bigbubba]

taaffy said:

unless you have played or have experienced golf at a high standard of play then I'd suggest that opinions mean squat ....

Edited by taaffy on Monday 23 April 10:21

Whilst I agree with everything else you said, this is BS.

Simon Cowell has never been a recording artist but he knows a bit about how to make money from singing.

[anonymous-user]

taaffy said:

Lets put the golf thing in perspective here .... as an ex golf pro .....

Your average enthusiastic amateur playing off a handicap of 12 or 13 around average courses which measure circa 5900- 6300 yards with light rough and greens at a speed of circa 9 on the stimpmeter would not break 100 on the average course that tour players play on.
Average tour courses have yardages of 7100+ and the greens usually run at about 11 to 13 on the stimp and the tour guys are averaging circa 69-71 shots per round.
You will also find that tour courses are set up with virtually no run on the fairways so the courses play their full length.
The average golfer even the big hitters will be lucky to hit it any farther than 260yds even if they think they hit it farther . I drive the ball circa 260-270 yds on average and I can say out of all the times i have played there are only a handful of players who knock it past me and they have been players of a similar standard to me. Yes your higher handicapper may have hit it 300 yds on a dry day with lots of roll, but then I would have hit it 360 yds so its all relative. The tour guys are ranging from 255 -310 yds so not that much longer than me but so much better from 200 yds to the green and just awesome on the greens.

As an amateur now I play off 2 at the 2010 ryder cup course in wales and off the very back championship tees i struggle to make my handicap but still play to about 6 or 7 as it is nearly 7500yds.
Off the medal tees at 7100 i manage just fine, but guests that I have taken (even single figure guys) struggle to break 90 and it is considered an easier tour venue as the fairways are quite generous ..

So unless you have played or have experienced golf at a high standard of play then I'd suggest that opinions mean squat ....
I have played with ex ryder cuppers and they pummel me .....and I can easily break par on an average joe type of golf course ....

So the difference between a top tour pro and your average enthusiastic golfer is massive ......

Put a tour pro on an average course and he would easily be scoring in the high 50's .......fact

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 23 April 10:21

As an amateur playing off +2 I'm going to have to call some of the above into question.

How do figure you'd hit it 360 if the fairways were rolling? 100 yards of roll? I think not. Avg driving distance on tour is circa 280-285 so you're a good 20% shorter than AVERAGE.

Driving is all relative anyway, the key for all good touring pros is their short game from 100 yards in. This is what separates the club pro from a tour pro.

What did you turn pro off? I bet higher than scratch..

What tour pro have you seen shoot in the 50's? I played with Hennie Otto for 2-3 weeks at a decent club course and he managed a best of 66..

The courses the pros play are so manicured they are playing the absolute best of conditions. A normal track for a club golfer deals with greens probably not 50% of the quality of a tournament course. That makes a huge difference imo.

[Cheib]

bigbubba said:

Cheib said:

Oh dear oh dear oh dear

95% of of 10ft puts

It's you that knows jack about golf

Looks like there are going to be a lot of suicides on the PGA tour......probably all the players

You're so wrong it's not even funny

Check these official stats from the PGA tour

http://www.pgatour.com/r/strokes-gained-putting-ba...

Pro's only actually make 38% of ten foot puts so I was wrong....but not as wrong with you.

The good news is they do make 95% of three foot puts though.

I bet you believe you've got ten inches downstairs don't you....I've got some bad news...it's only three inches

Edited by Cheib on Sunday 22 April 21:21

Have you actually watched tour players at practice greens live?

No, didn't think so.

Tiger was famous for his putting practice regime.

He used to set out a cross of balls with the hole in the centre. The closest four balls would be 4 feet from the hole and each leg of the cross would have 10 balls in each 18 inches from previous ball. He would put each ball and if he missed one he would reset the cross.

An amateur would never ever make all 40 putts, no matter how much practice they had.

What is your handicap Cheib, apart from your attitude?

Yes I have thanks....I've also played in pro-am's with a couple of tour pro's so have been on a putting green alongside them. Played most of the Open venues and a few of the other course in the UK that get used for pro tournaments...i.e. Wentworth West, Loch Lomond etc.

I've honsestly got no idea why you are arguing about this....those are official PGA Tour stats....they made 38% of 10 foot putts in 2010. FACT.

It's all very well talking about Tiger's practice regime but there are two key things you are missing.

1) It's a practice green. Very different from playing a round even for Tiger.

2) You're talking about the guy that was Number 1 in the world for many many years. Unfortunately he is not representative of the entire field at a golf tournament. When you watch a tournamnet on TV the coverage will be almost entirely of the ten to fifteen leading players....guess what these are the people making the putts that week. If they showed the guys making up the bottom 15 players it wouldn't look so good would it.

You're the guy that started with the attitude........get over it.

[Tiggsy]

I think the golfers need to get some proper exercise and burn of some of this aggression!

[taaffy]

Dubai said:

How do figure you'd hit it 360 if the fairways were rolling? 100 yards of roll? I think not. Avg driving distance on tour is circa 280-285 so you're a good 20% shorter than AVERAGE.


What did you turn pro off? I bet higher than scratch..

What tour pro have you seen shoot in the 50's? I played with Hennie Otto for 2-3 weeks at a decent club course and he managed a best of 66..

The courses the pros play are so manicured they are playing the absolute best of conditions. A normal track for a club golfer deals with greens probably not 50% of the quality of a tournament course. That makes a huge difference imo.

As an amateur i turned pro off +3 so considerably better than scratch and that was a handicap I could play off at most courses I encountered.

100 yds of roll is easily achievable in the summer on average courses that most amateurs play that have fairways which have become rock hard, I've regularly knocked it 350 in the summer at Royal Porthcawl and at Pyle and Kenfig both close to where I live
My carry distance with my driver is circa 255 at the 2010 but as the fairways are heavily watered I get very little roll. On a normal course with harder fairways, 20 yds or so of run takes me to the 275-280 yd average..
At present i play once a week at most and can still maintain my current handicap easily.

I've played with Phil price in his heyday where he easily knocked it round local Cardiff courses off yellow boxes in circa 58 -59 -60 on a regular basis.
I've also been lucky enough to play with both Paul Lawrie and Andrew Coltart, both of who scored 59 and 61 off normal yellow boxes at Rosemount golf club 6200 yds.
I've also played with Monty at Woburn where he carded a 63 off the back tees of the Marquess course when I played my socks off for a level par round. (so I have no doubt a 6000yd course would present no problem for him to break 60.)

As for some handicaps....they can be very misleading depending on the difficulty of course you play at.
I go to watch the Duncan putter at a local links type course which is a current points qualifying course for the amateur order of merit and usually the cut off for handicaps is +0.5 or better. It always amazes me how a field of +? handicaps very rarely manage to break par for 4 rounds and some don't even break 80 for each of the 4 rounds. That makes a mockery of the handicapping system as most of the handicaps are not real representations over anything other than their own home courses.

I play off 2 off the back medal tees at a current european tour venue course but take me to a course with normal yardage at circa 6000-6500 yds and I easily play to +2.
Tour boys are knocking it round the 2010 course 3 and 4 under off the very back tees ....


When it comes to greens yes average courses have inferior greens but in the summer months most of them have fairly good surfaces.
Take your average joe onto a tour speed green and he would struggle with the speed and slopes.

I've played with former British amateur champs who have played at Augusta and they have said that the golf course itself is fairly straightforward but the greens make you look like a monkey....an average amateur around there would most probably have a nightmare with the flat stick.


I don't know how good your+2 is but if you can consistantly play to it off the back tees at many different courses then fair play to you it a hell of a standard to have reached.

But even that is still a long way off making it as a tour pro ......believe me I have tried and spent much wonga trying.....

It's vastly different when you have to pay a mortgage with it .....

Edited by taaffy on Monday 23 April 14:24

[taaffy]

Tiggsy said:

I think the golfers need to get some proper exercise and burn of some of this aggression!

I also play ice Hockey so no aggression here ....

[taaffy]

bigbubba said:

taaffy said:

unless you have played or have experienced golf at a high standard of play then I'd suggest that opinions mean squat ....

Edited by taaffy on Monday 23 April 10:21

Whilst I agree with everything else you said, this is BS.

Simon Cowell has never been a recording artist but he knows a bit about how to make money from singing.

Most amateurs who have never played with or actually seen a tour player in action on a normal course have nothing to guage how good they actually are so their opinion is just that ....opinion and not from any real experience.

I play regularly with 10-24 handicappers and they always make comments about my "awesome drives" and solid short game yet my game is light years away from that of you average tour player.

Edited by taaffy on Monday 23 April 14:23

[Carlton Banks]

Squash and Tennis.

[Celt]

deadmau5 said:

MMA? Don't think many amateurs would last long against the likes of Fedor, Silva or St. Pierre!

I was thinking some sort of fighting based sport. If an amateur drops their guard for a split second you have a fist full of glove. Professionals are just far to quick to react.

[gmh23]

blueg33 said:

Is anyone old enough to remember the TV programme from the 70's "Superstars"?

They pitched elete sports people from different sports against each other in a range of fitness type competitions, eg swimming, running, push ups etc a big range. I seem to recall that Jody Schekter (F1 driver) was frequently the best all rounder.

Similar thing on BBC3 a while ago, called "Last Man Standing".

IIRC it was a boxer who won that though

[superkartracer]

Is golf even a sport?