The PH Gun Cabinet - Shooting Matters
Discussion
Efbe said:
tumble dryer said:
They're almost at opposite ends of the spectrum quality wise. The Weihrauch is a serious bit of kit (virtually regardless of model variant) and probably more deserving of having 'worked-up' to the make; I'd suggest that not many airgun shooters start from this position. I had a Stoeger for a year as a trainer for a friend (not that model) and the spring broke, but it had served its purpose; the guy's now a fanatic!
BTW, it's not so much the single shot from a springer that you learn more from; it's more about trigger release. A tank fed weapon has a far cleaner 'break', whereas a springer (not so much the Weihrauch) tends to have more by way of creep, and a more physical 'break'. Horses/courses really.
What do you have by way of a facility in which / where to shoot?
I live in the middle of nowhere, so have either thousands of acres of mountains/forests, or also an industrial unit with just me in to shoot in.BTW, it's not so much the single shot from a springer that you learn more from; it's more about trigger release. A tank fed weapon has a far cleaner 'break', whereas a springer (not so much the Weihrauch) tends to have more by way of creep, and a more physical 'break'. Horses/courses really.
What do you have by way of a facility in which / where to shoot?
will have to read up on the legalities of this first as well
Will probably start on a cheaper one as you suggest then. Is stoeger an ok budget brand, or would a Gamo or even a cheap Weihrauch be better or not really matter at the c£200ish price bracket.
http://www.airgunshooting.co.uk/expert-advice/airg...
I'm the one who'll probably get shot down now, but you'll become a far better / more accurate shot if you learn to use your weapon with open (non scoped) sights firstly, and then add a scope later - but I DO see the attraction!
If you don't want the faff of a divers bottle and pre charged something like an air arms tx200 Springer is a fine accurate 12ftlb air rifle that's perfect for pigeons etc or plinking.
You can get them circa £200-250 2nd hand if lucky for a nice one.
I've a 35ftlb fac rapid 7 pre charge and it's a deadly bit of kit to 50 yards so don't be fooled into thinking air rifles are still kids toys. It's more expensive to get a brand new top make air rifle and bottle than a lot of rimfire and shotguns!
You can get them circa £200-250 2nd hand if lucky for a nice one.
I've a 35ftlb fac rapid 7 pre charge and it's a deadly bit of kit to 50 yards so don't be fooled into thinking air rifles are still kids toys. It's more expensive to get a brand new top make air rifle and bottle than a lot of rimfire and shotguns!
Efbe said:
I'm pretty sure I'm going to get lined up and shot for asking this but...
I'd like to have a go at target practice with a scoped rifle, but it seems quite a lengthy process, difficult to get into and costly. So, I was thinking about trying out an air rifle to see if it is something I might like to pursue with proper rifles. (Am aware the airgun license is required.)
Are there any suggestions of an airgun that is a good starter and has a bit of range (for an airgun).
I'm biased as I'd never touched an air rifle until perhaps last year. Almost 20 years after I first shot a rifle. I'd like to have a go at target practice with a scoped rifle, but it seems quite a lengthy process, difficult to get into and costly. So, I was thinking about trying out an air rifle to see if it is something I might like to pursue with proper rifles. (Am aware the airgun license is required.)
Are there any suggestions of an airgun that is a good starter and has a bit of range (for an airgun).
On the costs: it is not particularly costly to shoot a 22LR rifle. The things you will be up for are:
1. Club membership. Varies, should be less than 200 quid.
2. Ammo and depending on club range fees or gun rental. Some clubs range fees and guns are included in membership, some not. Ammo is about a fiver for a box of 50.
So you could shoot a club owned scoped 22LR rifle at a club and it would cost you less than 200 to get started.
If you chose to go on, then you would have the cost of the FAC+cabinet (maybe 350-ish combined) and rifle (maybe 300 used).
It is not difficult at all, if you are interested in it. You can try out a scoped rifle as a club probationer, so if you find a club with vacancies (which is probably most rifle clubs except in central London) then you can be shooting stuff with a scoped rifle less than a month from today.
The benefit of an air rifle under 12 ft-lbs energy is that they are unregulated (except in Scotland) so you can plink stuff in your back garden lawfully. Preferably out of sight an earshot of your neighbours though so you don't get an unwelcome visit from an ARV.
---
I see you have plenty of space. So for you, an air rifle makes plenty of sense to start off with.
The other thing you could do is a shotgun: Section 2 shotguns (maximum magazine capacity of 2 plus one in the chamber) are lightly regulated. Buy a pump action section 2 shotgun and put a red dot sight or low power scope on it and go out into your forest and plink stuff (with landowner permission of course). Obv a shotgun will spray shot over a much wider area than the point impact of a bullet, but a pump action shotgun with a red dot sight will definitely bring a smile to your face
Edited by creampuff on Tuesday 21st August 21:48
Cheers for that.
Really good advice on here. I think I am going to start heading down to my local club which seems to be a pretty decent one and get a hang of it first.
Might also help me decide between scoped/non and also spring/gas.
It is scotland I am in, but the license looks to be easy enough to gain.
Really good advice on here. I think I am going to start heading down to my local club which seems to be a pretty decent one and get a hang of it first.
Might also help me decide between scoped/non and also spring/gas.
It is scotland I am in, but the license looks to be easy enough to gain.
creampuff said:
As you are in Scotland afaik you need a FAC even for air rifles.
Might as well just go straight to a 22LR in that case and forget about air rifles.
Unless you want a rifle to shoot squirrels out of a tree or pigeons, in which case you can't use your .22rfMight as well just go straight to a 22LR in that case and forget about air rifles.
Go FAC air rifle and get the best of both worlds. I had my rapid 7 serviced yesterday (£30) and it was chronoed at a healthy 36ft/lb on 18 grain Diablo heavy pellets. The trigger is so much better than my cz455 and it stops pigeons and squirrels dead at 50 yards just like any rimfire.
creampuff said:
^ Haha, isn't a .22-250 just about the fastest cartridge? Mach 3 or thereabouts; I'm not surprised an air rifle is quieter!
If you have a FAC air rifle, does your FAC also have the restrictions you get with regular rifles, eg target on approved ranges or vermin control and zeroing?
Yes it fairly cracks along. Makes a mess of foxes at decent range too. The fac air rifle is no different than my other fac guns, I'm on a closed ticket so the land has to be added for fac use and anything I get permission on has to be added to my ticket. Bit of a faff to start with but I'll see if I can get open ticket next renewal perhapsIf you have a FAC air rifle, does your FAC also have the restrictions you get with regular rifles, eg target on approved ranges or vermin control and zeroing?
Well, I'm trying to get my ballistic calculator to match my range results for the NRA GGG 7.62x51 Imperial 155gr match ammo.
I like this ammo as it is cheap as far as match ammo goes and it shoots consistently for me.
Getting the ballistic calculator to match the range elevations is tricky though as I don't know the muzzle velocity or the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.
So far I've got three very different numbers for the muzzle velocity and no idea at all for the ballistic coefficient.
On the box it says MV = 855m/s = 2805fps. Box does not say what barrel length this was.
This guy tested the ammo and got about 3000fps
http://photos.ammara.com/ggg/GGG-First-Look-Part-2...
He doesn't say what barrel length either, but maybe it was a long barrel.
On my ballistic calculator, I get results approximating the elevations I dial in on the range using a MV = 2500fps.
I have a 20 inch barrel but even then, 2500fps seems too slow.
I like this ammo as it is cheap as far as match ammo goes and it shoots consistently for me.
Getting the ballistic calculator to match the range elevations is tricky though as I don't know the muzzle velocity or the ballistic coefficient of the bullet.
So far I've got three very different numbers for the muzzle velocity and no idea at all for the ballistic coefficient.
On the box it says MV = 855m/s = 2805fps. Box does not say what barrel length this was.
This guy tested the ammo and got about 3000fps
http://photos.ammara.com/ggg/GGG-First-Look-Part-2...
He doesn't say what barrel length either, but maybe it was a long barrel.
On my ballistic calculator, I get results approximating the elevations I dial in on the range using a MV = 2500fps.
I have a 20 inch barrel but even then, 2500fps seems too slow.
The NRA tested the GGG ammo using a 30" barrel and got an MV of 2979 ft/sec. That was a previous batch, but there's no reason to think the current batch has changed in spec. although there were several reports of competitors getting unexplained 'flyers' in this year's Imperial, so the consistency of the current batch may not be as good as in previous years.
Your 20" barrel is going to make quite a bit of difference and I'd expect you's get an MV around 2750 ft/sec out of it, but if you want your calculations to be at all accurate you do need to get hold of a chrono.
BTW the BC of the bullet used in the GGG ammo (Sierra 2155) is more like 0.450 at the velocities you'll be getting.
Your 20" barrel is going to make quite a bit of difference and I'd expect you's get an MV around 2750 ft/sec out of it, but if you want your calculations to be at all accurate you do need to get hold of a chrono.
BTW the BC of the bullet used in the GGG ammo (Sierra 2155) is more like 0.450 at the velocities you'll be getting.
Using the rule of thumb of 25fps muzzle velocity loss per inch of barrel length, I should be getting about 2700fps out of my 20” barrel.
OTOH I’ve plugged in the elevation numbers with BC=0.417 and 0.45 and that back calculates to 2540-2585fps.
Think I need to find a chrono.
Or try a 1000 yard target. If it really is <2600fps the ballistic calculator predicts subsonic at about 1000 yards
OTOH I’ve plugged in the elevation numbers with BC=0.417 and 0.45 and that back calculates to 2540-2585fps.
Think I need to find a chrono.
Or try a 1000 yard target. If it really is <2600fps the ballistic calculator predicts subsonic at about 1000 yards
red_slr said:
Have they changed the bullet?
No, the BC you quoted is an average for the 2155. At 2500-3000 fps it will be higher.Depending on who measured it, it will be in the 4.3-4.5 region.
This is one of the reasons ballistic calculators are often slightly out. If a BC is calculated at a particular velocity or the average is used as the quoted BC for a particular bullet, then the ballistic calculator will only be correct at that specific velocity.
So many variables at work with these things. That's why I don't bother with these calculators. They'll give you a starting point, but it's much better to use your own practical experience and measurements to base your settings on.
creampuff said:
Or try a 1000 yard target. If it really is <2600fps the ballistic calculator predicts subsonic at about 1000 yards
Depends on the conditions. Some bullets stay very stable through the transonic region and into subsonic. The bullet used in the GGG ammo is very forgiving and has been used for many years in target rifles because of this.If you're expecting to see a sudden drop off in accuracy from 900 to 1000 yards, you may be surprised. I can't think of any other way you'd be able to tell what velocity the bullet's travelling at other than a chrono.
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