The PH Gun Cabinet - Shooting Matters

[smack]

Dan_The_Man said:

How would you interpret this rule ?

Bisley Bible Appendix 6: Downloading ammunition will not be accepted as a means to bring rounds that would otherwise exceed potential ME/MV values within limits.

The HME RCO training course covers this and it means that every HME rifle must comply with the HME zero process no matter what load is being used.

Imagine turning up with a (lovely) new .300 Win Mag rifle, batch of reloaded ammo, no zero (not even on the zero range) and expecting to use the sandbank to walk rounds onto electronic targets at 600 yards, that's a PITA for any RO to deal with. Procedure is shoot 5 rounds into a HME zero card on the zero range, get it signed off and enjoy V bulls for the rest of the day.

Dan it is interesting you have replied to this. How would I interpret that rule? Well first define Downloaded Ammunition? The Bisley Bible, nor in any published information from the NRA defines it. The accepted interpretation is under starting/recommended loads from powder manufacturers. Of course downloaded or under charged loads is common, the world over the likes of pistol shooters have used light 'target' loads for competitions, but clearly this appendix has been defined as an example to prevent someone turning up with 50 BMG, and shoot it with a 'downloaded' round to get under 7000 J.

But picking that one rule out is out of context, and also to talk of a "HME Rifle", as the published NRA rules don't define one as such, unless it is of a 338 caibre - "Rifles chambered for .338” may not be fired on the Bisley Ranges." 338 Lapua Magnum ammunition, both commerical and with load data from powder manufactures is under 7000J, otherwise it could have been used as HME.
https://www.lapua.com/cartridges/338-lapua-magnum/

So to the relevant regulations published by the NRA:

NRA said:

The NRA Handbook 1 April 2019
APPENDIX II – BISLEY RANGES REGULATIONS

Firearms and Ammunition

4 All shooters are responsible for ensuring that their firearms and
ammunition are safe to use. Shooters are to make firearms and ammunition
available for inspection and testing as requested by NRA staff.

5 The following ammunition is prohibited on Bisley ranges:
a Tracer; incendiary; armour piercing; armour piercing incendiary
(API); depleted uranium; ammunition containing any igniferous or
explosive substance.
b Projectiles that are not constructed of pure lead, lead alloy, or a
lead core with a jacket of gilding metal or soft iron. Lead-free
mono-metallic bullets may be used during specific events that are
controlled and planned by the NRA. They are otherwise forbidden.
c Cartridges which, when normally loaded, would exceed the ME/
MV limits of any specific range, may not be used, on that range,
even if downloaded.
Limits as to Calibre, Muzzle Velocity and Muzzle Energy

6 No firearm and ammunition combination which develops a muzzle
energy exceeding 7000 J (5160 ft lb) may be used on any of the Bisley ranges
without the specific permission of the CE which must be sought in writing well
in advance of the planned use. The following limits apply:

a Rifle ranges, no specific calibre limitation but:
i a maximum muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s (3280 ft/s)
ii a maximum muzzle energy of 4500 J (3319 ft lb);

b Gallery Rifle and Pistol ranges, no specific calibre limitation but:
i a maximum muzzle velocity of 655 m/s (2150 ft/s)
ii a maximum muzzle energy of 2030 J (1496 ft lb).

c High Muzzle Energy (HME) firearms no specific calibre
limitation but:
i a maximum muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s (3280 ft/s)
ii a maximum muzzle energy of 7000 J (5160 ft lb). Special
zeroing procedures are required as explained in Para 8
below.

Additional Limits on High Muzzle Energy (HME) Firearms

8 A High Muzzle Energy (HME) Firearm is defined as any firearm which,
using a particular round, develops a muzzle energy (ME) in excess of 4500 J
(3319 ft lb). The HME zeroing procedure must be carried out before they may
be fired on any range at Bisley. The firearm may be zeroed:
a on the NRA Zero Range using a special target supplied by the
Range Office.
b under control of an RCO (HME) at the start of the practice for
shooting at 200 yards or less .
c at a distance of 200 yards on a special target under the direction
of an RCO (HME) (see paragraph 39 below) prior to shooting at
greater distances.

9 Rifles chambered for .338” may not be fired on the Bisley Ranges

NRA are not defining a HME Firearm by itself, it is only one when using ammunition between 4500-7000J.

Section 68 has a graph do define if a round is HME applying to Section 8-9 (on page 70).

Referencing Accurate Load Guide 3.5, as it is on my computer right this moment:
300WM, 24 inch barrel, 2350 powder 168 Sierra HPBT
Recommended starting load 66.6gr 2774 fps
= 3893J - well under.
That is a recommended load, not downloaded or undercharged. So the barrel is shorter, The Berger Reloading manual says for the 308 Winchester, ‘muzzle velocity will increase (or decrease) by approximately 20 fps per inch from a standard 24? barrel, so for a 27" barrel, resulting in a velocity of 2834 fps results in 4063J

For comparison, fine I have cheery picked from the Lyman 49th Edition Reloading Handbook (widely used as a reference by reloaders), but to make a point
308W 24 inch barrel, Vit N550 powder 190 HPBT
Max Load 47.0gr, 2667 fps
= 4096J

But referencing the graph on Page 70, push a 170gr bullet faster than 2996 fps, it is HME, or for the 190gr bullet it is 2805 fps. I think that is pretty clear, and if there is any question (most people shooting large calibres, and all shooting things like F Class are using non factory made ammunition), section 4 - "All shooters are responsible for ensuring that their firearms and ammunition are safe to use. Shooters are to make firearms and ammunition available for inspection and testing as requested by NRA staff.". I'm sure there are odd calibers people use skirting around HME rules but get away with it as they are a bit unknown.


My point and the reply to the earlier post, when assumptions and misunderstanding when it comes to HME. Maybe the NRA need to rewrite the regulations.

Edited by smack on Friday 13th December 20:34

[Dan_The_Man]

smack said:

My point and the reply to the earlier post, when assumptions and misunderstanding when it comes to HME. Maybe the NRA need to rewrite the regulations.

More than happy for you get them to confirm in writing, we just need to be covered. Several people have had their SSC & RO cards suspended recently for similar technical infringements.

[FurtiveFreddy]

Even a custom built FTR rifle (.308) is capable of exceeding the HME threshold with home loads, so as Smack says you can't really define what an 'HME rifle' is, unless you take into account the calibre and loads being used with it.

[Wobbly]

Dan_The_Man said:

More than happy for you get them to confirm in writing, we just need to be covered. Several people have had their SSC & RO cards suspended recently for similar technical infringements.

I quite agree Dan, confirmation would be a good step forward, clearly it needs to be less ambiguous.

As you said, the NRA are coming down hard on infringements and coming back from a ban is difficult.

[Meltham Terrier]

Just wanted to say that I shot 2 PB’s on Sundays Sporting set up at my local club with a 37 and a 40.

I’m proud of myself as I’ve only been shoot around 2yrs.

[SlimRick]

As a Christmas present to myself, I've booked a game shoot at Belvoir Castle in two weeks time. All well and good, except whilst beating last Saturday I fell and broke my shoulder. What's the fastest a broken bone has ever healed? I'm going for a world record.

[The_Doc]

Serious answer: young children's broken wrists heal in 2-3 weeks

Adults long bone fractures (tibia and femur) in 12 weeks.

Adult fractures near joints can be healed enough to move gently in 3-4 weeks, but if you fall on it before it's 100% it will either displace to a worse position (sometimes requiring surgery) or on rare occasions come out through the skin.

And you are a danger to the other guns if you're not tip top.

William
NHS Carpenter and game shooter

[Turn7]

I had a 425 And sold it on after all the blacking fell off and Browning wouldnt warrant it - brand new gun !

Then bought a used Silver pIg that I own today and would part with......

Also, feels better to shoot and I think I shoot better with it.

[jimmyjimjim]

As a Christmas present to myself (wife left present buying very late), I bought myself another polymer 80 lower receiver(G17 this time) and a lower parts kit.

Objective this time it to make the cheapest DIY possible weapon (ok, machining the entire thing from scratch would be that, but I'm not that skilled, nor am I interested in making my own barrels and slides to the required strength), sort of. Deviations from this plan may occur*

Spend so far-

P80 G17 receiver - $89.99
Barrel - $42.74
Lower parts kit - $41.24

Bits to be ordered as deals occur.
Magazines are 3D printed already, and with the springs work out at ~$8 each.
Need a slide, upper parts kit and sights*

* the barrel is threaded (for that price, you take what you can get), so I may go down the suppressor route, which is $200 for the tax stamp, plus the suppressor itself - this increases the cost of sights, which blows the original plan out of the water....I may just complete as 'standard', then add a suppressor later.

This being my second P80 build, it went a lot more smoothly, and probably only took 90 minutes to get a fully finished receiver.

[Turn7]

Yep, same for me as well....

Apart from the EELL.....I KNEW I couldnt afford one of those !

And if I could, I be looking at Perazzi's....lol

[Turn7]

Dont !

I follow atkins grant and lang on FB, and some their stuff is mega.......like the price tag....

[200Plus Club]

I've just bought myself a centrefire rifle (used) but mated it to a lovely new Zeis scope (only the budget end conquest) which has made a nice package together. Looking forward to using it in 2020.

[tobinen]

Anyone on here with experience/ownership/an opinion on Kemen trap guns? I think it's the KM4

I believe they're a 'copy' of a Perazzi.

[tertius]

tobinen said:

Anyone on here with experience/ownership/an opinion on Kemen trap guns? I think it's the KM4

I believe they're a 'copy' of a Perazzi.

Yes I have a KM4 though they aren’t exclusively “trap guns - mine is more of a sporter with multi choke barrels and a shallow rib.

Lovely guns, shoot very well but fairly substantial as is the Perazzi style.

[tobinen]

Thanks for that. Early stages but quite like the look of them.

[tertius]

Things to look out for are:
1. The factory don’t make very many so they are quite rare (and prices vary a lot)
2. Accordingly parts can reportedly be hard to get, though I have never actually needed any and my gun came with a spares kit of which a single spring was used (before my ownership) and I’ve never needed any of the other parts!
3. Some early guns apparently suffered from cracking stocks around the grip; though again mine has no issue and I feel that any gun that’s going to have the problem would probably have shown the problem and been fixed by now
4. I think quite a few guns were originally fixed choke and have been converted to multi choke systems (certainly true of mine) this usually means there is no barrel selector

Finally in the interests of full disclosure my gun is actually up for sale as I am mainly shooting my 20 bore now and fancy a change.

[Johnspex]

I've taken my Taurus LBP to bitas and can't make the cylider go back into the frame.I removed the cylider, the crane, the star andthe cntrescrew, cleaned it all now the bugger won't go back in to the gun. Any ideas please

[Old Fart]

[quote=tertius]Things to look out for are:
1. The factory don’t make very many so they are quite rare (and prices vary a lot)
2. Accordingly parts can reportedly be hard to get, though I have never actually needed any and my gun came with a spares kit of which a single spring was used (before my ownership) and I’ve never needed any of the other parts!
3. Some early guns apparently suffered from cracking stocks around the grip; though again mine has no issue and I feel that any gun that’s going to have the problem would probably have shown the problem and been fixed by now
4. I think quite a few guns were originally fixed choke and have been converted to multi choke systems (certainly true of mine) this usually means there is no barrel selector

A good report on the Kemen, I shot one for a while, bought from Kelbrook, six months later the wood across the grip cracked, I lost faith in it and resold it to Kelbrook with quite a loss of money.

My advice is buy something modern, I'm shooting a 725 Pro Sport, nice gun with a good warranty.

[tobinen]

Thanks tertius

Just handed in my medical form to the GPs' office for renewal. 50 fking quid to spend a few minutes on a simple form. Robbing bds.

[200Plus Club]

I've just renewed FAC and shotgun. Dr's did my letter foc. Just shows you different areas and lack of level playing field.