The PH Gun Cabinet - Shooting Matters

[200Plus Club]

andyb28 said:

200Plus Club said:

Anyone else had much luck on the pigeons this summer? We had another cracking day yesterday with 148 birds. My own shooting was about average for me 67 birds for around 200 shots fired in very tricky windy conditions.

What are you shooting over?

Bet they are going like rockets in this wind

Just over fresh cut stubble. Absolute rocketships going with the wind, very challenging. We've had over 800 birds in 7 outings since the fields were cut. Tgat might be the last as the farmers are busy drilling again on many of ours this week.

[mickyh7]

andyb28 said:

Since rather enjoying the Baikal Side by side, I have a urge to get an Sbs for my little collection.

Trouble is, I want one with a few more modern features. Those being 28", single trigger, ejector and pistol grip. This obviously narrows down the choices to very few.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks
Andy

Have a look at Berreta SxS's well engineered, but pricey.
Or buy a good used AYA No 2 single trigger.

[andyb28]

mickyh7 said:

Have a look at Berreta SxS's well engineered, but pricey.
Or buy a good used AYA No 2 single trigger.

I would love an Aya No 2. I haven't seen one with pistol grip, but a quick google shows there are some.

Well thats just gone on to my christmas list

[simo1863]

This thread has been on popguns for too long so I'll share a real gun I've just picked up.

I've had 7.5mm Swiss on my license for a while and just found this pristine 1944 Swiss K31 service rifle:



Going to be loading it down for indoor use as well as some full power/long range targets when the clubs start doing away days again.

[MKnight702]

Nice, there is at least one Schmidt Rubin at my club.

[Pesty]

Nice, fired a few on low power loads, same guy who has one of those has a Nagant carbine, it’s horrific.

[aeropilot]

simo1863 said:

This thread has been on popguns for too long so I'll share a real gun I've just picked up.

I've had 7.5mm Swiss on my license for a while and just found this pristine 1944 Swiss K31 service rifle:



Going to be loading it down for indoor use as well as some full power/long range targets when the clubs start doing away days again.

Popguns ......

The K31 are very cheap to buy, and very good rifles.

A couple of the very senior club officials of the club I joined 5 years ago, were huge K31 fans, and one of them had about 3 of them including the sniper version......although they were just about to give them up when I joined as they had both passed age 80 and were struggling with health issues to continue full bore shooting.

I'm content to stick with my Lee-Enfields and K98's though

[simo1863]

aeropilot said:

Popguns ......

The K31 are very cheap to buy, and very good rifles.

A couple of the very senior club officials of the club I joined 5 years ago, were huge K31 fans, and one of them had about 3 of them including the sniper version......although they were just about to give them up when I joined as they had both passed age 80 and were struggling with health issues to continue full bore shooting.

I'm content to stick with my Lee-Enfields and K98's though

I originally had 303 on there but every other person at the club has an Enfield and after a bit of digging and research found the 1889 - K31 line. Figuring if I want to shoot an Enfield I could just borrow one at the club (and have done in the past).

It came with an aftermarket 3 power scope and mount that I took off. Craftsmanship is amazing for a service rifle but the real reason behind the purchase is because I'm a trigger snob and the two stage on it is incredible.

Have ordered a surplus sling and some 6 round resin clips for it from Switzerland..... just weighing up a bayonet but they're a bit steep.

The straight pull factor is overstated, I dont feel like you could fire it any faster than any of its contemporaries.

And the dies were very expensive.

Reloading data isn't plentiful but its ballistics are very similar to 308 so will just roll with that. Have some alliant red dot powder and have already made some subsonic test loads for it.

[aeropilot]

simo1863 said:

I originally had 303 on there but every other person at the club has an Enfield and after a bit of digging and research found the 1889 - K31 line. Figuring if I want to shoot an Enfield I could just borrow one at the club (and have done in the past).

For me though, its the history of the Enfield's and Mausers etc that are part of the attraction of them.

Its the very thing the K31 doesn't have, unless you have an interest in the Vatican Guard

simo1863 said:

The straight pull factor is overstated, I dont feel like you could fire it any faster than any of its contemporaries.

Its a lot slower in fact, as the problem with the K31 is you have move your head off to the left and away from the sight picture, while you operate the bolt, otherwise you just pull it into your face, which means then having to put your head back and getting your sight picture back.....which is crap for a battle rifle.

Again, the fact that you can operate the bolt very quickly while keeping your head fixed and eyes on target with a Lee-Enfield make it arguably the best bolt action battle rifle of all time.

[NMNeil]

simo1863 said:

Reloading data isn't plentiful but its ballistics are very similar to 308 so will just roll with that. Have some alliant red dot powder and have already made some subsonic test loads for it.

Try these
https://ia600909.us.archive.org/4/items/LymanReloa...
https://ia903003.us.archive.org/0/items/alliantrel...
https://ia803207.us.archive.org/35/items/19414427-...
https://ia801903.us.archive.org/26/items/19414423-...
All in the public domain so no copyright issues.
And if it ever needs fixing
https://ia800303.us.archive.org/8/items/gunmanual_...

[simo1863]

aeropilot said:

For me though, its the history of the Enfield's and Mausers etc that are part of the attraction of them.

Its the very thing the K31 doesn't have, unless you have an interest in the Vatican Guard

I was pretty pragmatic about why I went for a K31. I can use Enfields when I want to (being relatively common here) and I've a CZ with a Mauser action (albeit in a tiny 17 Hornet) so went for a less obvious choice. My main temptations when I had a 303 British slot were Martini Henrys.

And I'd want to restore one to as close to the best condition I could so the best rifle to do that with is one that never saw action, or weren't under strain to be produced with whatever materials were around.
When researching I found an anecdote (and I'm not sure how true it is) on a forum in the US claimed that an owners group had asked Winchester to remake a modern replica of a K31 to exact standards and they were quoted at around $5k per rifle just because of the materials used.

They sort of do have a history in themselves, most were issued in national service and kept by the same individual until retirement (sometimes for 40 or 50 years). Many still have the names of the serviceman that they were originally assigned to under the but plate. Granted, that's not the same as serving the entire commonwealth for two world wars!

aeropilot said:

Its a lot slower in fact, as the problem with the K31 is you have move your head off to the left and away from the sight picture, while you operate the bolt, otherwise you just pull it into your face, which means then having to put your head back and getting your sight picture back.....which is crap for a battle rifle.

Again, the fact that you can operate the bolt very quickly while keeping your head fixed and eyes on target with a Lee-Enfield make it arguably the best bolt action battle rifle of all time.

I agree, I always try to be aware of my national bias but I tend to agree with the adage of:
The Americans brought a target rifle
The Brits a battle rifle
The Germans a hunting rifle
And the Russians..... well they brought a rifle (although in my experience not all Mosins are made equal)

For me the strength of the Enfield isn't just that the bolt cocks on close but also that the bolt and trigger position are perfectly aligned (which is certainly not the case with a K31 and the main reason the straight pull doesn't actually add anything), had better sights and held ten rounds. I always question though that if it's as good as I think it is, then why is the 98K the most popular rifle action in the world and the cocking on close action is dying out. Maybe accuracy, average WW1 SMLE are said to be between 3-4 MOA whereas 98Ks were 2 MOA (K31s are supposedly between 0.5-1 but I'll be testing that!).

On the K31, seems hit and miss whether the bolt will hit you in the face when cycling it. It gets very close to me but I don't have to move my face from the stock, even though (with a bit of practise) you can get yourself back on target pretty quickly, although not mad minute speeds (which was another Enfield strength - training around fast aimed shots).

Sorry, could talk about service rifles all day!

TLDR: Got a K31 because it's different/rarer, made very well from very good materials, accurate, incredible two stage trigger.

[simo1863]

NMNeil said:

Try these
https://ia600909.us.archive.org/4/items/LymanReloa...
https://ia903003.us.archive.org/0/items/alliantrel...
https://ia803207.us.archive.org/35/items/19414427-...
https://ia801903.us.archive.org/26/items/19414423-...
All in the public domain so no copyright issues.
And if it ever needs fixing
https://ia800303.us.archive.org/8/items/gunmanual_...

thanks for that.

A lot of that seems to be either full power loads or loads trying to replicate the GP11 ammunition that it was issued with.

There's not a lot of published data on subsonic loads.

I've gotten a load together for about 1000FPS with red dot (a powder for shotguns) and seems to hit consistently. The first one I tried chrono'd at 550FPS.... could see it and am surprised it didn't get stuck in the barrel. Pretty sure it was tumbling too.

[aeropilot]

Yes, the quality and the MOA accuracy/trigger etc., is why the old boys in my club bought them years ago, as they were more like a target rifle than a battle rifle.
The Swiss had the advantage of course that they weren't at war and I presume they were all made in the same factory in a consistent way, compared to Enfields and K98's which were made in many mulitiple factory locations by multiple contractors and thus have a huge variation in accuracy when new.
Its no surprise that the Enfield sniper conversions by H&H came from pretty much only 2 of the No.4 factories, and in reality most of them came from just the one.
Likewise, with the K98's, of all the factories making them, the factory SSR/LSR and Zf.39 snipers were built by Mauser-Oberndorf and JP Sauer (with the one exception of the small run of single claw snipers built up in 43/44 by the bespoke gunsmithing company Mahrholdt from completed rifles supplied from the Steyr factory)

[Pesty]

What factory was that ( No.4 sniper)?

[simo1863]

Pesty said:

What factory was that ( No.4 sniper)?

I'm sure aero will correct me on this but it was my understanding that No 4 Ts were those tested at factory and showed better than 2 MOA accuracy.

So not one particular factory but just the cream of the crop in general. Maybe one factory lends itself to making them more accurately but I don't know if that was the case or which factory it was, if so.

Edit: https://webpages.uidaho.edu/stratton/Enhistory.htm...

Suggests Long Branch in Canada and (over here) RSAF Enfield and Holland & Holland.

Edited by simo1863 on Thursday 1st October 08:21

[aeropilot]

Pesty said:

What factory was that ( No.4 sniper)?

In general terms, the only two sources of the No.4(T) sent to Holland & Holland for conversion were from ROF Maltby, and from BSA. Rifles that passed the accuracy test at those two factories were set aside for dispatching to H&H in London. No.4(T) had been produced by Enfield prior to the contract be let to H&H, but these were not in numbers that were sufficient, hence the contract to H&H.
By some way though, the majority came from BSA at Small Heath, and its quite rare to find a Maltby 4(T), especially in the later production, as Maltby was a war factory and so production there ended before the contract for the 4(T) ended. However, a handful of the 4(T) that were converted into L42A1 in the early 70's were Maltby made examples.
H&H did convert some from other sources, as part of the testing and evaluation process, and Long Branch in Canada made their own versions of the 4(T) for the Canadian forces.

Edited by aeropilot on Thursday 1st October 09:58

[red_slr]

Anyone got a Walther PPQ?

Thinking of getting one. Only thing putting me off is the price but seems to get much better reviews than the firefly?

[Pesty]

aeropilot said:

Pesty said:

What factory was that ( No.4 sniper)?

In general terms, the only two sources of the No.4(T) sent to Holland & Holland for conversion were from ROF Maltby, and from BSA. Rifles that passed the accuracy test at those two factories were set aside for dispatching to H&H in London. No.4(T) had been produced by Enfield prior to the contract be let to H&H, but these were not in numbers that were sufficient, hence the contract to H&H.
By some way though, the majority came from BSA at Small Heath, and its quite rare to find a Maltby 4(T), especially in the later production, as Maltby was a war factory and so production there ended before the contract for the 4(T) ended. However, a handful of the 4(T) that were converted into L42A1 in the early 70's were Maltby made examples.
H&H did convert some from other sources, as part of the testing and evaluation process, and Long Branch in Canada made their own versions of the 4(T) for the Canadian forces.

Edited by aeropilot on Thursday 1st October 09:58

Thanks
I worked in Maltby for years. I’d be surprised if anything made there even fired

Never seen a maltby one in the wild, I was looking for one ended up with a long branch that had been Sporterised so I fitted new wood. Shoots very well.

[aeropilot]

Pesty said:

I worked in Maltby for years. I’d be surprised if anything made there even fired

Pesty said:

Never seen a maltby one in the wild, I was looking for one ended up with a long branch that had been Sporterised so I fitted new wood. Shoots very well.

I managed to find a Maltby made No.4 many years ago, but sold it when the chance of getting my current BSA 4(T) came up.
I've only seen 2 other Maltby No.4's for sale since then (not T's) - so they are pretty rare to see these days, with the vast majority of surviving No.4's in circulation being Savage, Long Branch or post war Fazakerley made MK.2's.

[MKnight702]

Pesty said:

a Nagant carbine, it’s horrific.

What's wrong with the Nagant carbine Comrade? I loved mine, the 2 foot of flame from the barrel, the earth shattering noise, the lovely Soviet action designed for use by untrained peasants. I used to love taking it out on guest days, very rarely did it fail to generate interest and a smile (although it may have been a grimace).