The PH Gun Cabinet - Shooting Matters
Discussion
MKnight702 said:
Yep, the lead ban is nothing but a poorly disguised gun ban.
The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
Why is it a poorly disguised gun ban?The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
I can immediately go out and buy substitute ammo in steel and carry on as normal. Fairly soon the price for steel ammo will be only slightly more than lead, inflation adjusted. It was only expensive before because the volumes produced were low in the UK. but in parts of Europe it's been steel only for ages and the sport/activity/pursuit haven't been "banned"
The_Doc said:
MKnight702 said:
Yep, the lead ban is nothing but a poorly disguised gun ban.
The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
Why is it a poorly disguised gun ban?The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
I can immediately go out and buy substitute ammo in steel and carry on as normal. Fairly soon the price for steel ammo will be only slightly more than lead, inflation adjusted. It was only expensive before because the volumes produced were low in the UK. but in parts of Europe it's been steel only for ages and the sport/activity/pursuit haven't been "banned"
So yes, it is a poorly disguised gun ban. Their stated reasoning for stopping lead getting into the food chain is frankly laughable, if it was about that then the miles of lead waterpipe supplying thousands of homes would be top of the list, but they don't even get a mention. Plus, the below chart was profuced by the European Food Standards Agency, if you look, does it look to you that the pareto rule has been applied to reducing lead in food or is there, maybe, an ulterior motive? (I have highlighted the major issue that is lead from game meat)
The_Doc said:
MKnight702 said:
Yep, the lead ban is nothing but a poorly disguised gun ban.
The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
Why is it a poorly disguised gun ban?The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
I can immediately go out and buy substitute ammo in steel and carry on as normal. Fairly soon the price for steel ammo will be only slightly more than lead, inflation adjusted. It was only expensive before because the volumes produced were low in the UK. but in parts of Europe it's been steel only for ages and the sport/activity/pursuit haven't been "banned"
Turn7 said:
200Plus Club said:
.22 rimfire will be dead and buried going by the odd review you see of non toxic rounds. A shotgun groups better.
We shoot literally hundreds of rats with lead pellets too.
Massive problem looming.
Oh sWe shoot literally hundreds of rats with lead pellets too.
Massive problem looming.
t, didnt realise the lead ban was across airguns as well.aeropilot said:
The_Doc said:
MKnight702 said:
Yep, the lead ban is nothing but a poorly disguised gun ban.
The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
Why is it a poorly disguised gun ban?The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
I can immediately go out and buy substitute ammo in steel and carry on as normal. Fairly soon the price for steel ammo will be only slightly more than lead, inflation adjusted. It was only expensive before because the volumes produced were low in the UK. but in parts of Europe it's been steel only for ages and the sport/activity/pursuit haven't been "banned"
Having done some reading up on the shotgun situation, it looks as though the answer to the issue was clever designed HDPE plastic wads to keep the shot from contacting the inside of the gun. But guess what? "They" are coming for the plastic wadding too, citing the ecologic impact of non biodegradable plastics being shot everywhere..... Talk about a no win situation....
ChemicalChaos said:
Turn7 said:
200Plus Club said:
.22 rimfire will be dead and buried going by the odd review you see of non toxic rounds. A shotgun groups better.
We shoot literally hundreds of rats with lead pellets too.
Massive problem looming.
Oh sWe shoot literally hundreds of rats with lead pellets too.
Massive problem looming.
t, didnt realise the lead ban was across airguns as well.aeropilot said:
The_Doc said:
MKnight702 said:
Yep, the lead ban is nothing but a poorly disguised gun ban.
The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
Why is it a poorly disguised gun ban?The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
I can immediately go out and buy substitute ammo in steel and carry on as normal. Fairly soon the price for steel ammo will be only slightly more than lead, inflation adjusted. It was only expensive before because the volumes produced were low in the UK. but in parts of Europe it's been steel only for ages and the sport/activity/pursuit haven't been "banned"
Having done some reading up on the shotgun situation, it looks as though the answer to the issue was clever designed HDPE plastic wads to keep the shot from contacting the inside of the gun. But guess what? "They" are coming for the plastic wadding too, citing the ecologic impact of non biodegradable plastics being shot everywhere..... Talk about a no win situation....
Some of the issue needs to be shouldered by the shooting industry itself, this has been on the cards for quite some time. The research should have been active years ago not just as a rapid reaction.
In the 90’s, I went through a lead ban for course fishing, and another for lead solder, this is nothing new. Then lead was banned for wildfowlers, so again, another warning that lead’s days were numbered.
Now I shoot both air guns and shotguns, and agree with a lead ban on shotguns. If the numbers are anywhere near close to accurate on what’s used for them, then it’s horrific. As an example, I’m shooting a 120 bird event next week and I’ll kick 120 ounces (7.5 lbs) into the environment, multiply that by circa 600 plus guns and you start seeing the problem.
For rifles, I’m not sold on a lead ban, to increase projectile mass using non lead, you increase the projectile length, which would require a higher twist rate, which isn’t easy to overcome at the drop of a hat.
Add to that the amount of lead used for rifles, isn’t anywhere near as high as shotguns, and that most ammo is bimetallic now (I’ll come on to rim fire and air guns shortly), game dealers routinely use metal detectors to find ammo residue.
Now on to air and rim fire rifles. I have experience of early non toxic pellets, and they were not good for medium to long range, short ranges were ok. The problem was they were too hard and didn’t take the rifling or deform, and were too light really for hunting. This was proved when the same moulds were used to produce lead pellets, and they were exceptional if slightly to heavy for sub 12ft/lbs.
The same problem exists for rimfire calibres, plus the same twist rate issue that centre fires suffer from.
Now as I said in the first paragraph, this has been hovering around for decades, and ammo manufacturers should have been working on substitutes since then, rather than saying lead is god, when it’s not, it doesn’t take a lot of lead to have some quite serious consequences.
Don’t get me wrong, lead is a good choice for ammunition, because it’s soft, relatively heavy for size, and deforms easily. The alternative for shotguns is easier than rifles as pretty much any metal could be used as we have Bismuth, steel and Tungsten available now. However they are not perfect, steel is too light, bismuth is better but costly, and a finite resource. Tungsten is seriously costly and hard as nails, however it’s nice and heavy and also a finite resource.
For rifles, copper as in FMJ’s isn’t a good choice as a solid projectile, and those named for shotguns wouldn’t work, but a soft phosphor bronze could with a copper jacket possibly could.
The best option will be an alloy, which will differ between uses. Whether one is known about remains to be seen.
The way this is being handled is atrocious from all parties, but also 20 years too late in my opinion.
In the 90’s, I went through a lead ban for course fishing, and another for lead solder, this is nothing new. Then lead was banned for wildfowlers, so again, another warning that lead’s days were numbered.
Now I shoot both air guns and shotguns, and agree with a lead ban on shotguns. If the numbers are anywhere near close to accurate on what’s used for them, then it’s horrific. As an example, I’m shooting a 120 bird event next week and I’ll kick 120 ounces (7.5 lbs) into the environment, multiply that by circa 600 plus guns and you start seeing the problem.
For rifles, I’m not sold on a lead ban, to increase projectile mass using non lead, you increase the projectile length, which would require a higher twist rate, which isn’t easy to overcome at the drop of a hat.
Add to that the amount of lead used for rifles, isn’t anywhere near as high as shotguns, and that most ammo is bimetallic now (I’ll come on to rim fire and air guns shortly), game dealers routinely use metal detectors to find ammo residue.
Now on to air and rim fire rifles. I have experience of early non toxic pellets, and they were not good for medium to long range, short ranges were ok. The problem was they were too hard and didn’t take the rifling or deform, and were too light really for hunting. This was proved when the same moulds were used to produce lead pellets, and they were exceptional if slightly to heavy for sub 12ft/lbs.
The same problem exists for rimfire calibres, plus the same twist rate issue that centre fires suffer from.
Now as I said in the first paragraph, this has been hovering around for decades, and ammo manufacturers should have been working on substitutes since then, rather than saying lead is god, when it’s not, it doesn’t take a lot of lead to have some quite serious consequences.
Don’t get me wrong, lead is a good choice for ammunition, because it’s soft, relatively heavy for size, and deforms easily. The alternative for shotguns is easier than rifles as pretty much any metal could be used as we have Bismuth, steel and Tungsten available now. However they are not perfect, steel is too light, bismuth is better but costly, and a finite resource. Tungsten is seriously costly and hard as nails, however it’s nice and heavy and also a finite resource.
For rifles, copper as in FMJ’s isn’t a good choice as a solid projectile, and those named for shotguns wouldn’t work, but a soft phosphor bronze could with a copper jacket possibly could.
The best option will be an alloy, which will differ between uses. Whether one is known about remains to be seen.
The way this is being handled is atrocious from all parties, but also 20 years too late in my opinion.
Celtic Dragon said:
For rifles, copper as in FMJ’s isn’t a good choice as a solid projectile, and those named for shotguns wouldn’t work, but a soft phosphor bronze could with a copper jacket possibly could.
The best option will be an alloy, which will differ between uses. Whether one is known about remains to be seen.
None which will work with historic rifles where the only option is casting your own bullet heads etc in lead.The best option will be an alloy, which will differ between uses. Whether one is known about remains to be seen.
Celtic Dragon said:
Now I shoot both air guns and shotguns, and agree with a lead ban on shotguns. If the numbers are anywhere near close to accurate on what’s used for them, then it’s horrific. As an example, I’m shooting a 120 bird event next week and I’ll kick 120 ounces (7.5 lbs) into the environment, multiply that by circa 600 plus guns and you start seeing the problem.
And yet, as far as I have seen, when soil samples have been taken and analysed, there is no discernible difference in lead levels between samples from land where shooting has taken place over many years, and those from locations with no significant shooting activity. I'm not sure I see the problem.What are you shooting 120 of next week btw?
thismonkeyhere said:
And yet, as far as I have seen, when soil samples have been taken and analysed, there is no discernible difference in lead levels between samples from land where shooting has taken place over many years, and those from locations with no significant shooting activity. I'm not sure I see the problem.
What are you shooting 120 of next week btw?
You only have to look at the environmental wasteland that is Bisley, or the battlefields of WWI to see the long term impact of tons of lead being shot. It came out the ground, we are just putting it back, albeit a bit faster.What are you shooting 120 of next week btw?
Studies show that lead levels in humans have fallen dramatically over the last 40 years, (presumably mostly to do with the removal of lead from petrol?)
Going back to the 80s & 90's I don't recall many people dying from lead poisoning so what is the justification for this ban? Especially given that the contribution from game to the overall lead in the food chain is way down the bottom of the chart.
thismonkeyhere said:
And yet, as far as I have seen, when soil samples have been taken and analysed, there is no discernible difference in lead levels between samples from land where shooting has taken place over many years, and those from locations with no significant shooting activity. I'm not sure I see the problem.
What are you shooting 120 of next week btw?
I’m at the Jack Pyke sporting 120 at Sporting TargetsWhat are you shooting 120 of next week btw?
aeropilot said:
The_Doc said:
MKnight702 said:
Yep, the lead ban is nothing but a poorly disguised gun ban.
The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
Why is it a poorly disguised gun ban?The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
I can immediately go out and buy substitute ammo in steel and carry on as normal. Fairly soon the price for steel ammo will be only slightly more than lead, inflation adjusted. It was only expensive before because the volumes produced were low in the UK. but in parts of Europe it's been steel only for ages and the sport/activity/pursuit haven't been "banned"
I nearly didn't post my question because pistonheads responses are usually so snarky, but I thought I would.
-my mistake.
Bye.
The_Doc said:
aeropilot said:
The_Doc said:
MKnight702 said:
Yep, the lead ban is nothing but a poorly disguised gun ban.
The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
Why is it a poorly disguised gun ban?The majority of gun owners in the UK haven't realised the full impact of the proposals, so if this happens it is going to come as a very nasty shock to a lot of people. The biggest issue for us is that the world and their granny "knows" that lead is poisonous, despite lead shot not actually being the big problem that it is being made out to be. If it was really about lead causing health problems then the miles of lead water pipe still being used should be far higher up the priority list, the fact that this is being conveniently ignored tells you everything that you need to know about that.
I can immediately go out and buy substitute ammo in steel and carry on as normal. Fairly soon the price for steel ammo will be only slightly more than lead, inflation adjusted. It was only expensive before because the volumes produced were low in the UK. but in parts of Europe it's been steel only for ages and the sport/activity/pursuit haven't been "banned"
I nearly didn't post my question because pistonheads responses are usually so snarky, but I thought I would.
-my mistake.
Bye.
And people wonder why we have the problems we do have in the UK.
MKnight702 said:
aeropilot said:
I was right then.....
And people wonder why we have the problems we do have in the UK.
I don't think that your response is helping in any way, deliberately attacking another gun owner rather than the anti gun crowd.And people wonder why we have the problems we do have in the UK.
I have specific interests, but I don't want to see others lose the ability to do their's, just because I don't share that particular interest......its because of apathy in other disciplines which is what happens in the UK, as seen here.....
If that means having a go at another shooter for displaying exactly that attitude, then so be it......and I'd do it again....if more people had a go at others for being selfish, we might, just might be able to show a joined up front to the anti's, but instead the anti-crowd can use the fractious nature of UK shooting to their advantage.
Until ALL sperate UK shooting interests combine as one, we'll just get picked off one by one. Even the various associations and organisations have the same attitude within themselves.
Its impossible to show a united front to the antis as you suggest when some groups of shooters don't give a rats arse about others groups, because they don't share that interest. The common interest shoot be shooting, whatever the discipline you do............but not in the UK, where its I'm alright jack. Just boils my pi$$.
Celtic Dragon said:
I’m shooting a 120 bird event next week and I’ll kick 120 ounces (7.5 lbs) into the environment, multiply that by circa 600 plus guns and you start seeing the problem.
It's about £1/kg as scrap value, so my immediate thought is it'll sit on the surface, so there's a need for lead shot gathering machine, that'll probably pay for itself quickly at shooting grounds?Brush to gather like a combine, separate in a water tank?
Byker28i said:
Celtic Dragon said:
I’m shooting a 120 bird event next week and I’ll kick 120 ounces (7.5 lbs) into the environment, multiply that by circa 600 plus guns and you start seeing the problem.
It's about £1/kg as scrap value, so my immediate thought is it'll sit on the surface, so there's a need for lead shot gathering machine, that'll probably pay for itself quickly at shooting grounds?Brush to gather like a combine, separate in a water tank?
So I've started the whole FAC application process. Anyone fancy a pool on when it will arrive?
Application process started 03rd June 22.
The GP has already started with the 'we ain't signing nuffink' routine so I've had to employ a third party to sign the medical proforma. They have estimated a 12 week turnaround should the GP play ball in sending my medical records.
When I applied for my SGC It took them until the last hour of the last day of their (COVID extended 3 month) medical record request response deadline to call me and tell me that I had 30 mins to come and collect my records before they closed for the weekend. Despite a pre paid envelope being supplied along with my written consent they wouldn't post the records directly.
Almost 12 months to the day after that my SGC landed on the door mat. Many thanks to SWP for their efforts in expediting my application, they originally said 18 months.
A farmer friend wants everything in place to tackle his fox and crow problems for the coming lambing season. I think I'll be lucky to see it much before lambing 2024.
Application process started 03rd June 22.
The GP has already started with the 'we ain't signing nuffink' routine so I've had to employ a third party to sign the medical proforma. They have estimated a 12 week turnaround should the GP play ball in sending my medical records.
When I applied for my SGC It took them until the last hour of the last day of their (COVID extended 3 month) medical record request response deadline to call me and tell me that I had 30 mins to come and collect my records before they closed for the weekend. Despite a pre paid envelope being supplied along with my written consent they wouldn't post the records directly.
Almost 12 months to the day after that my SGC landed on the door mat. Many thanks to SWP for their efforts in expediting my application, they originally said 18 months.
A farmer friend wants everything in place to tackle his fox and crow problems for the coming lambing season. I think I'll be lucky to see it much before lambing 2024.
dci said:
So I've started the whole FAC application process. Anyone fancy a pool on when it will arrive?
Application process started 03rd June 22.
The GP has already started with the 'we ain't signing nuffink' routine so I've had to employ a third party to sign the medical proforma. They have estimated a 12 week turnaround should the GP play ball in sending my medical records.
When I applied for my SGC It took them until the last hour of the last day of their (COVID extended 3 month) medical record request response deadline to call me and tell me that I had 30 mins to come and collect my records before they closed for the weekend. Despite a pre paid envelope being supplied along with my written consent they wouldn't post the records directly.
Almost 12 months to the day after that my SGC landed on the door mat. Many thanks to SWP for their efforts in expediting my application, they originally said 18 months.
A farmer friend wants everything in place to tackle his fox and crow problems for the coming lambing season. I think I'll be lucky to see it much before lambing 2024.
I was just about to ask how long people are actually waiting for their first time grants to be completed. I applied for my (first) SGC and Medical form on the 10th May. I also reveived the GPs spiel of we don't do that anymore so I went with shootcert. Shootcert got my medical notes on the 16th June and then got my completed form back to me on the 17th June and I've just sent them in to the Police.Application process started 03rd June 22.
The GP has already started with the 'we ain't signing nuffink' routine so I've had to employ a third party to sign the medical proforma. They have estimated a 12 week turnaround should the GP play ball in sending my medical records.
When I applied for my SGC It took them until the last hour of the last day of their (COVID extended 3 month) medical record request response deadline to call me and tell me that I had 30 mins to come and collect my records before they closed for the weekend. Despite a pre paid envelope being supplied along with my written consent they wouldn't post the records directly.
Almost 12 months to the day after that my SGC landed on the door mat. Many thanks to SWP for their efforts in expediting my application, they originally said 18 months.
A farmer friend wants everything in place to tackle his fox and crow problems for the coming lambing season. I think I'll be lucky to see it much before lambing 2024.
I phoned the Police FA department to confirm receipt of the medical certificate and they told me there's up to a year long wait! Has anyone else applied with Avon and Somerset?
Merseyside seem to be very on top of their game.
Put my application in about 3 weeks ago and had my interview this morning, the lady was exceptionally nice and gave me some really good advice on the exact orientation for my cabinet (having discovered the original idea wasn't quite going to work).
Once she's come back to inspect the fitted cabinet it should be all systems go!
Put my application in about 3 weeks ago and had my interview this morning, the lady was exceptionally nice and gave me some really good advice on the exact orientation for my cabinet (having discovered the original idea wasn't quite going to work).
Once she's come back to inspect the fitted cabinet it should be all systems go!
Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff