The Swimming Thread - Pool/OW

[RobM77]

This is the case for any exercise though surely? I burn about 1,000 calories a day exercising. You've just got to find food that's healthy.

[Jambo85]

dirty boy said:

I can understand the hunger...I have two kids, one averages about 30,000m a week, the other around 20,000m a week.

There's little food in the house when I get home...proper horaces! The calorie burn is horrific...

Not to mention wife and I both gym 6-7 times a week each and my food shop is astronomical at the moment

Bloody hell. I thought I was doing pretty well and a big week for me is 8,000 m or thereabouts

[RobM77]

Jambo85 said:

dirty boy said:

I can understand the hunger...I have two kids, one averages about 30,000m a week, the other around 20,000m a week.

There's little food in the house when I get home...proper horaces! The calorie burn is horrific...

Not to mention wife and I both gym 6-7 times a week each and my food shop is astronomical at the moment

Bloody hell. I thought I was doing pretty well and a big week for me is 8,000 m or thereabouts

I must admit, 30k swimming is pretty astonishing! That's dedication! He must know every tile in the pool by now

[Jambo85]

RobM77 said:

This is the case for any exercise though surely? I burn about 1,000 calories a day exercising. You've just got to find food that's healthy.

It probably is Rob, but other than swimming I'm ashamed to admit I have very rarely if ever burned 800 calories or more in a single workout. Hillwalking perhaps but that's over 6-8 hrs so it seems a bit more normal, plus with sandwich stops I don't notice it as much.

My question wasn't supposed to come across as an exercise results in hunger shocker, more soliciting practical advice on how to counter the desire to stuff my face with crap immediately after. Although I do still wonder if being immersed in cold-ish water for a while triggers some survival response to consume calories, which you don't necessarily experience with other exercise.

Thanks to your advice yesterday I put a yogurt in the car this morning and fired that into my face straight after my 2k swim, detour to Lidl's croissant aisle avoided!

[boyse7en]

Jambo85 said:

It probably is Rob, but other than swimming I'm ashamed to admit I have very rarely if ever burned 800 calories or more in a single workout. Hillwalking perhaps but that's over 6-8 hrs so it seems a bit more normal, plus with sandwich stops I don't notice it as much.

My question wasn't supposed to come across as an exercise results in hunger shocker, more soliciting practical advice on how to counter the desire to stuff my face with crap immediately after. Although I do still wonder if being immersed in cold-ish water for a while triggers some survival response to consume calories, which you don't necessarily experience with other exercise.

Thanks to your advice yesterday I put a yogurt in the car this morning and fired that into my face straight after my 2k swim, detour to Lidl's croissant aisle avoided!

I find similar to you. I swim a couple of mornings a week (I'm not a good swimmer) doing 2000m in about 45 mins. I'm always starving a short while after.

I also run two or three times a week, doing about 6 miles in 50 minutes (so similar time exercising) but I'm nowhere near as hungry afterwards.

[RobM77]

Jambo85 said:

RobM77 said:

This is the case for any exercise though surely? I burn about 1,000 calories a day exercising. You've just got to find food that's healthy.

It probably is Rob, but other than swimming I'm ashamed to admit I have very rarely if ever burned 800 calories or more in a single workout. Hillwalking perhaps but that's over 6-8 hrs so it seems a bit more normal, plus with sandwich stops I don't notice it as much.

My question wasn't supposed to come across as an exercise results in hunger shocker, more soliciting practical advice on how to counter the desire to stuff my face with crap immediately after. Although I do still wonder if being immersed in cold-ish water for a while triggers some survival response to consume calories, which you don't necessarily experience with other exercise.

Thanks to your advice yesterday I put a yogurt in the car this morning and fired that into my face straight after my 2k swim, detour to Lidl's croissant aisle avoided!

Ah, sorry; I do an hour a day of fairly hard exercise, so get used to it. I always make sure I have food available, although it helps that I never buy food, so don't get tempted by junk in shops; I always just take home made sandwiches, fruit and a drink with me.

Funny you should mention hillwalking - my wife and I do a fair bit of that and strangely I eat no more than in a normal day at work. Often we're walking for 5-7 hours and I'll just have a couple of sandwiches and a banana. Strange. Running and cycling are the biggies for me in terms of calories - I don't seem to burn very much swimming, not according to my Garmin or Strava anyway.

[dirty boy]

Jambo85 said:

dirty boy said:

I can understand the hunger...I have two kids, one averages about 30,000m a week, the other around 20,000m a week.

There's little food in the house when I get home...proper horaces! The calorie burn is horrific...

Not to mention wife and I both gym 6-7 times a week each and my food shop is astronomical at the moment

Bloody hell. I thought I was doing pretty well and a big week for me is 8,000 m or thereabouts

More than likely!

He's 12 now and aiming for a first regional qualifying time...he's got a st birthday though (12 on boxing day) so about as young as you can be in his age category.

He's gutted because a mate he swims with got a few regional times (same age bar a few days) but he's a freak and ranked 1-3 in most strokes for the region.

So he's got it set that he wants to join him this year and who am I to argue.

Rule is...both kids say which sessions they want to do and they wake us on the day!

I hate that 5am alarm with a passion, when they come though and put the bedroom light on!

[Highway Star]

BoRED S2upid said:

That’s a lot of swimming reminds me of my youth didn’t last long I didn’t find it enjoyable.

Pretty average for what I'd assume are good age groupers these days - 30k over 6 or 7 sessions is only 4-5k a session - about what the kids at the club I swim at are on.

I used to do 50k a week as a teenager, week in, week out (90s). Was never totally sold on the benefits though and with hindsight, knocking that down to 30k a week probably wouldn't have affected my performance and possibly would have saved me a f*ck load of shoulder issues now I'm hitting 40 and still swimming competitively.

[Rich_W]

boyse7en said:

I also run two or three times a week, doing about 6 miles in 50 minutes (so similar time exercising) but I'm nowhere near as hungry afterwards.

Running uses fewer muscles than Swimming Shirley?

dirty boy said:

Rule is...both kids say which sessions they want to do and they wake us on the day!

I hate that 5am alarm with a passion, when they come though and put the bedroom light on!

What a great idea!

[RobM77]

Rich_W said:

boyse7en said:

I also run two or three times a week, doing about 6 miles in 50 minutes (so similar time exercising) but I'm nowhere near as hungry afterwards.

Running uses fewer muscles than Swimming Shirley?

Yes, but it depends on the amount of exertion put in, and this will be highly individual and technique dependent. Water is about 800 times denser than air, so technique has a massive impact on swimming efficiency - this is what the Total Immersion technique that I mentioned earlier focuses on. Running efficiency also varies but not nearly as much. My source for that is that a few years ago I had about three years of fortnightly TI swimming coaching with underwater cameras and slow-mo etc measuring and improving my efficiency, and I've had two sessions of similar with running, so I've spoken to experts in both fields and seen the differences they can generate. When I stopped the intensive swimming coaching I was still on a steep learning curve; the amount of technique to learn was mind boggling, whereas with running after two sessions we felt I could benefit from a few more sessions, but certainly nowhere near fortnightly for three years - he'd run out of things to teach me.

The other factor is breathing.. with running you can breath as often as you like, but with swimming front crawl you're forced into breathing out gradually and then in again quickly, and furthermore, the frequency you can do this is linked to the speed you go, so you can't breath as often as you like and your performance is therefore limited by your lung capacity. If you swim slowly it's less effort, but you don't get to breath very often and vice versa.

For the record, according to my Garmin I burn 400 calories per hour swimming and 780 an hour running. I do both at an average pace for a guy of my age: for a 45 minute session, that's 1m/s for swimming, and 4m30s per km running; this is roughly average for both sports according to the anonymous Garmin stats.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 24th January 14:18

[Jambo85]

Highway Star said:

Pretty average for what I'd assume are good age groupers these days - 30k over 6 or 7 sessions is only 4-5k a session - about what the kids at the club I swim at are on.

While I'm sure your post is factually accurate, I think perhaps we have different ideas of what the words "average" and "only" mean!

[OneDs]

Jambo85 said:

Highway Star said:

Pretty average for what I'd assume are good age groupers these days - 30k over 6 or 7 sessions is only 4-5k a session - about what the kids at the club I swim at are on.

While I'm sure your post is factually accurate, I think perhaps we have different ideas of what the words "average" and "only" mean!

Actually I think he has it right. As a national standard age grouper in the late 80's we were doing 8 sessions 5pms and 3ams up to 5-6k a session in heavy season at beckenham. As a senior international in the early 90's it went up a bit but not by much but we did do more land training and weights as well. At the time there were plenty of examples where clubs were doing more than this, this sounds as though they are actually reducing KMs and focusing more on quality. Oh and I was a 50m and 100m man 200m IM max, so it is not like I was one off those nutters do 1500m races week in week out. Hopefully the time in the water is still as high if not higher.

[Jambo85]

Has anyone got any tips on avoiding and dealing with swimming-induced sore shoulders? I've only been swimming decent distances (2 km+) of crawl regularly for a few months so unsure how normal this is but my right shoulder is in quite a bit of discomfort following 3 km on Monday night, 1 km of which was probably breast stroke.

It's clicking and banging if I twist it to reduce the discomfort, but it's not agony, and it felt largely OK while swimming.

Best to rest it for a week or so? Is it likely something I'm doing wrong in my stroke? Difficult to diagnose on the internet I appreciate...

Thanks.

[RobM77]

Jambo85 said:

Has anyone got any tips on avoiding and dealing with swimming-induced sore shoulders? I've only been swimming decent distances (2 km+) of crawl regularly for a few months so unsure how normal this is but my right shoulder is in quite a bit of discomfort following 3 km on Monday night, 1 km of which was probably breast stroke.

It's clicking and banging if I twist it to reduce the discomfort, but it's not agony, and it felt largely OK while swimming.

Best to rest it for a week or so? Is it likely something I'm doing wrong in my stroke? Difficult to diagnose on the internet I appreciate...

Thanks.

You're right, it's usually technique. This is something that the TI technique that I follow addresses. Much of it is down to the subtleties of the arm recovery and re-entry; it's very easy to strain something doing this, and nothing is really gained from it.

[Jambo85]

Thanks I'll ask someone to have a look next time I'm in. Biceps and forearms are buggered too. But I did smash out my 3km about ten mins faster than usual.

[Otispunkmeyer]

BoRED S2upid said:

dirty boy said:

I can understand the hunger...I have two kids, one averages about 30,000m a week, the other around 20,000m a week.

There's little food in the house when I get home...proper horaces! The calorie burn is horrific...

Not to mention wife and I both gym 6-7 times a week each and my food shop is astronomical at the moment

That’s a lot of swimming reminds me of my youth didn’t last long I didn’t find it enjoyable.

Wait till they get to 50-60k a week! Used to do 1.5 hrs on a morning, 2 hrs on an evening and 2 hrs on a sunday. Plus 3 x gym. Reckon about 3-3.5 k an hour average. I will tell you now, I didn't eat enough when I was training like that. I thought I was, but I wasn't and I wasn't eating the right stuff. Think it limited my growth/performance. I was like a rake compared to some of my team mates and I think I only managed to keep up by lack of drag! but the lack of strength/power did begin to show as I got older (15/16).

I was an age grouper around the time Bill Sweetnips was in charge at British Swimming and it seemed to be one size fits all... meters, meters, meters. Most of our sets were all freestyle. Staples like 40x100 on 1.20, 20x200 on 2.40/2.45, 8x400's on 5.40. Christmas eve set was 100x100 once. I've also heard of another club nearby who had a bit of thing for distance swimming...10x1000's was one of their favourites.

I am definitely of the school of thought that just boshing out meters probably wasn't the best way to train. Not for the individual. But it did help sort the wheat from the chaff at many clubs. Only those who could tough it out stayed on. I think a lot of people didn't like it, or Bill, but I certainly think that it made British swimmers as a group tougher.

I now don't do anywhere near as many meters as what I used to do. But now I concentrate on sprinting, I try to technique coach myself by using an underwater camera and doing my own research on what is current and I hit the gym regularly. Results? currently faster than I have ever been for 50's, faster than I have ever been for 100 IM, 100 back and 100 free. Downsides, I suck even more at 200's, but then I was never any good at those. I had the biggest disparity between 100 and 200 time of anyone at my age group club; 55 for the 100, 2.08 for the 200. My body just isn't cut out for it. I did the same meters on the same times as everyone else and yet the other guys were 2.00 for the 200 and some going under.

Currently sat on the sidelines though with a buggered shoulder. Physiotherapy in progress and having to ride a bike, inside, on a turbo trainer. Where I am finding my endurance ability to be just the same as the pool; I can do short max sprints and short recoveries until the cows come up. But ask me to canter along at a decent clip for 30 minutes and I'll fade like a cheap suit around 20 minutes

on a side note, swimming and hunger pangs is real. I get it every time I touch the pool. Even when we go to a nice hotel for a bit of spa break, a mess about in the pool = ordering boat loads of food in the restaurant later and inevitably having "eyes bigger than the belly" syndrome.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Sunday 11th March 22:15

[Otispunkmeyer]

Jambo85 said:

Thanks I'll ask someone to have a look next time I'm in. Biceps and forearms are buggered too. But I did smash out my 3km about ten mins faster than usual.

For swimming I think you really need to have the shoulder rotator cuff muscles in good shape to keep hold of the shoulder. Its doing a lot of moving about throughout the freestyle stroke, especially when reaching forward for the catch. You need the shoulder to be flexible to allow you to do that, but at the same time you need those muscles to keep the joint anchored.

This is my problem at the moment. The left shoulder. The other muscles seem to have been able to over power the rotator cuff muscles and tightness in the front of the shoulder is pulling the joint way too far forward during the catch. Its causing impingement and its properly painful.

I am relegated to riding a bike on a turbo trainer to keep fit and doing a multitude of rotator cuff strengthening exercies as well as stretching to try remove the tightness. I've been swimming nearly 20 years now and for much of that I've been caning my body over 1000's of meters every day. Never had a problem until last year and it just crept up on me. First a little discomfort when cold, but once warmed up I was fine. But gradually that started to take longer and longer until it just didn't go away.

If sore shoulders are getting you already I would suggest you might have something a bit out of whack with your stroke that is putting too much strain on the shoulder. That or your shoulder muscles just need time to adapt.

You'll see many swimmers with the "rounded" shoulders.... the muscles in the front of the shoulder and pec, pulling the shoulders round.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Sunday 11th March 22:24

[Jambo85]

Otispunkmeyer said:

If sore shoulders are getting you already I would suggest you might have something a bit out of whack with your stroke that is putting too much strain on the shoulder. That or your shoulder muscles just need time to adapt.

Yes I think that must be it - went for a relatively sedate swim on Friday morning, my right shoulder was giving a twinge right at the end of my stroke. I think maybe I have been trying to stroke too far. I reduced that and it felt OK. I had been going as far as my John Thomas but by stopping more like the top of my shorts it felt a lot better, and I don't think it cost me any efficiency.

Your last point is also relevant I am sure, I've gone from doing next to no exercise in the last few years (particularly nothing involving arms and shoulders) to doing what most people would consider quite a lot of swimming fairly quickly.

[RobM77]

Jambo85 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

If sore shoulders are getting you already I would suggest you might have something a bit out of whack with your stroke that is putting too much strain on the shoulder. That or your shoulder muscles just need time to adapt.

Yes I think that must be it - went for a relatively sedate swim on Friday morning, my right shoulder was giving a twinge right at the end of my stroke. I think maybe I have been trying to stroke too far. I reduced that and it felt OK. I had been going as far as my John Thomas but by stopping more like the top of my shorts it felt a lot better, and I don't think it cost me any efficiency.

Your last point is also relevant I am sure, I've gone from doing next to no exercise in the last few years (particularly nothing involving arms and shoulders) to doing what most people would consider quite a lot of swimming fairly quickly.

I don't know about standard technique, but with TI we are taught to put our arm out in front of us straight, but loose, and let the water support it; no stretching and no straining. Obviously the catch involves muscular power, but if your muscles are tense when they don't need to be it only zaps power and increases your chance of injury.

[Otispunkmeyer]

RobM77 said:

Jambo85 said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

If sore shoulders are getting you already I would suggest you might have something a bit out of whack with your stroke that is putting too much strain on the shoulder. That or your shoulder muscles just need time to adapt.

Yes I think that must be it - went for a relatively sedate swim on Friday morning, my right shoulder was giving a twinge right at the end of my stroke. I think maybe I have been trying to stroke too far. I reduced that and it felt OK. I had been going as far as my John Thomas but by stopping more like the top of my shorts it felt a lot better, and I don't think it cost me any efficiency.

Your last point is also relevant I am sure, I've gone from doing next to no exercise in the last few years (particularly nothing involving arms and shoulders) to doing what most people would consider quite a lot of swimming fairly quickly.

I don't know about standard technique, but with TI we are taught to put our arm out in front of us straight, but loose, and let the water support it; no stretching and no straining. Obviously the catch involves muscular power, but if your muscles are tense when they don't need to be it only zaps power and increases your chance of injury.

Echo Rob here. Arm out in front and rotate the body into it so you extend the reach forward. But it is a relaxed position, you should be able to effectively have the hand supported by the water moving over/under your hand. like a wing. On the catch, high elbows, palm of hand facing back, pull back whilst making a shallow S motion. Please do extend the end of the stroke past your hip, we pull all the way back past the top of the trunks/shorts, starting the recovery just beyond the hip. The hand is travelling quite fast so keeping it in the water to do work is key. You will be losing efficiency by not stroking all the way through. If it felt like you didn't then there is something not right elsewhere further up the stroke. Really from the start of the catch, to the end of the stroke, the arm should be constantly accelerating... applying force (good old F=MA). The shallow S motion is to help with holding onto water.

I had a look at TI style swimming. Looks like slow-motion and the body looked very low in the water. But it is extremely smooth and that is where good speed starts. I guess more typical swimming would take that as the base and try to speed it up... get higher in the water and get the arms and legs moving. Of course splashing will occur but trying to keep the form of TI as best you can would seem like a good way to progress.

I think my stroke must be TI like as I have always had comments about how easy my swimming looks, how it looks like I am not trying, being lazy. Well, my HR says otherwise. Its bloody hard work maintaining a long, smooth stroke!