The Swimming Thread - Pool/OW

[Highway Star]

Otispunkmeyer said:

1 x 25 FC - on 45
1 x 50 BR-FC - on 60
1 x 75 BK-BR-FC - on 90
1 x 100 IM - on 2 min
1 x 75 FLY-BK-BR - on 90
1 x 50 FLY-BK - on 60
1 x 25 FLY - on 60

After that, 100 IM Max.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Friday 15th February 13:35

That's similar to a set we did recently. Bit too 'sprinty' for me though - I enjoyed this one from this week (main set only below)

3x300 FC on 4.30
3x200 IM on 3.15
2x300 FC on 4.15

Set primarily aimed at building fitness, which I think our coach feel a few of us lack!

Otis, are you doing any Masters comps this year? I only did a couple last year as it was my first year back in the pool after 4 off and I was only fitting 2 sessions a week in but I've been doing 3 a week reasonably regularly over winter, so hope for better times this year. First Masters meet for me is Bracknell in 2 weeks' time, then Gloucester, Midlands at Rugby in May and Braunstone in June and I might give the LC GBs a go in Swansea despite hating LC swimming.

Also, recollecting your previous mention of your age and where you are from, you might know/know of my current coach - he's late 20s, ex-Loughborough Uni, Derventio and GB international, backstroker, originally from China?

[chandrew]

Scabutz said:

To get the fitting right its best to try a few on and find the most comfortable. Some places have endless pools for this, if you can wait to OW season starts and look for a lake. Many lakes also sell wetsuits and usually let you try a few on. Its important to get a suit that fits well.

Try
https://www.londonsroyaldocks.com/open-water-swimm...

Or slightly outside of London look at Sheppperton or Bray Lake.

Thanks. Royal Docks would be convenient. Just need to wait until it warms up a bit. (At least there isn't 50cm of ice on the water like there is here at the moment).

[jfire]

I'm pretty quick (2x 23m) in 40 but scared of drowning while doing flip turns. Tips?

[WinstonWolf]

jfire said:

I'm pretty quick (2x 23m) in 40 but scared of drowning while doing flip turns. Tips?

I first learned to do them in the middle of the pool, once I was comfortable with flipping and not getting water up my nose (breathe out through it as you flip) I moved closer and closer to the side until I mastered it. I find touch turns *weird* now...

[boyse7en]

1000m @ 20:38
1000m @ 20:25
500m@ 10:03

All before breakfast this morning.

I'd like to get those 1000s down closer to 20 mins (ideally just below) but I don't seem to get quicker, just keep the same pace for longer

[Scabutz]

boyse7en said:

1000m @ 20:38
1000m @ 20:25
500m@ 10:03

All before breakfast this morning.

I'd like to get those 1000s down closer to 20 mins (ideally just below) but I don't seem to get quicker, just keep the same pace for longer

2 things. Firstly at that pace you are being held back by your technique as much as your fitness. Worth getting that looked at and corrected.

2nd thing is with your training. If you are just going longer at the same pace then you are building endurance and not developing speed. What do you in training? Should put some speed sessions in and also some longer efforts at threshold pace. Look up the red mist set on swim smooth, that is a good set for building speed endurance. My favorite speed session I do is 4x100m off 4:00 , 4x50m off 2:00. 4x25m off 1:00. These are done at 100% max effort. Theya re good because you get some good faster swim getting those arms turning over but also plenty of rest between each run to fully recover.

[Otispunkmeyer]

Highway Star said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

1 x 25 FC - on 45
1 x 50 BR-FC - on 60
1 x 75 BK-BR-FC - on 90
1 x 100 IM - on 2 min
1 x 75 FLY-BK-BR - on 90
1 x 50 FLY-BK - on 60
1 x 25 FLY - on 60

After that, 100 IM Max.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Friday 15th February 13:35

That's similar to a set we did recently. Bit too 'sprinty' for me though - I enjoyed this one from this week (main set only below)

3x300 FC on 4.30
3x200 IM on 3.15
2x300 FC on 4.15

Set primarily aimed at building fitness, which I think our coach feel a few of us lack!

Otis, are you doing any Masters comps this year? I only did a couple last year as it was my first year back in the pool after 4 off and I was only fitting 2 sessions a week in but I've been doing 3 a week reasonably regularly over winter, so hope for better times this year. First Masters meet for me is Bracknell in 2 weeks' time, then Gloucester, Midlands at Rugby in May and Braunstone in June and I might give the LC GBs a go in Swansea despite hating LC swimming.

Also, recollecting your previous mention of your age and where you are from, you might know/know of my current coach - he's late 20s, ex-Loughborough Uni, Derventio and GB international, backstroker, originally from China?

I may do some this year. DIdn't do any last year as I had ruined my shoulder. Its only just gotten back to normal, so now I have to get my fitness back. Don't know of that guy... I'm 33 for reference. I wish we had someone like that! We have a chap whose been involved with the club a good number of years and he writes the sessions. But he's also swimming them. I am not sure there is any real plan to things.

We did have Roberto Pavoni for a while, but they tend to get the coaches in for the young ones and the masters just get left to it. Having said that, we've got people doing their level 2 during march so sundays will be 2 hours and fully coached! Looking forward to that.

I really only train sprints to be honest, I'll never swim 200m + in a race again, I just don't like it and was never any good at it. Always better at the sprinting. I think my strokes are too different between sprinting and not kinda makes no sense to spend ages plodding up and down practising a stroke you'll never use in anger. I get that there needs to be some basic aerobic endurance though, but my preference tends to sprints.

Love sets like 10x50's on 3-4 minutes. Have to give it death from the 1st one and hold it. Only 500m, but you'll be holding back the vom by the end. No idea why I have much higher tolerance for that kind of pain over the distance kind of pain.

Will likely end up doing the events like Rugby, where its all relays and 50's to start! Braunstone too.

P.S. got a few more set pieces to put up. Need to fish them out my bag first though!

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Friday 1st March 16:09

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Friday 1st March 16:10

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Friday 1st March 16:10

[SVS]

Has anyone tried or seen the Speedo On app, which can now be used with a Samsung Gear Sport / Gear Fit2 Pro smartwatch/ fitness tracker.

Is there another smartwatch or fitness tracker that focused on swimming (without costing a fortune)?

[Highway Star]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Love sets like 10x50's on 3-4 minutes. Have to give it death from the 1st one and hold it. Only 500m, but you'll be holding back the vom by the end. No idea why I have much higher tolerance for that kind of pain over the distance kind of pain.

We also do that set, I hate it. Max effort for the first 50 and then try and hold it - first time we did it I was gassing by the fourth 50 and tasted that metallic taste in my mouth (precursor to vom) by the 6th.

I rarely do 50s now, I will perhaps do one a year in some strokes to see how the march of time is affecting me, but I just can't get the turnover now to generate pure speed.

First meet of the year (and only my third meet in the past 5 years) yesterday - went well, I was 2 seconds faster than last year on my 200 back (even factoring in some seriously dodgy turns and a poor finish which is probably race rustiness), 3 seconds faster on my 200 breast and 3 seconds faster on my 100 back, equalling the time I did at the same meet 10 years ago. My 200 IM was immediately after my 100 back, so was a bit of write off, but I managed to win my heat, which always feels good even though that's not really the aim in Masters. Good banter with my teammates and met a guy who was my rival in my region as an age grouper, I'd not seen him for 25 years, that's what's great about Masters - he's greyer than me but I'm fatter than him!

Some more regular training over the next 3 weeks and hopefully can do a good 400 free at the Gloucester meet, it's kind of my benchmark distance.

[FunkyNige]

SVS said:

Has anyone tried or seen the Speedo On app, which can now be used with a Samsung Gear Sport / Gear Fit2 Pro smartwatch/ fitness tracker.

Is there another smartwatch or fitness tracker that focused on swimming (without costing a fortune)?

I've just downloaded that app and synced it with my Garmin account, if you sync it with a 'true' smartwatch (like the Samsung ones) does it tell you what to swim next in one of the coaching plans on the watch itself? If not, I can't see that the app adds more than the standard Garmin Connect app really.
I use the Garmin Vivoactive 3 for swimming, currently £165 at Amazon. It's a running/cycling watch that also does swimming (and shows phone notifications), I don't have any issues with it swimming as it's press the button to start, press to start a rest, press again to start the timer again. At the end the rests are all shown and the bits between are set as intervals. You get issues if you stop in the middle of a length, or change stroke in the middle of a length, but that's the same for most (if not all) swimming watches.

[boyse7en]

Did the Swimathon on Sunday afternoon. My 12yo daughter did the 2500m in about 1:05, and I managed to do the 5000m in 1:49:35.
Was pleased with that as I was aiming to get it under 2 hours.
Wasn't too tired at the end either, got my pacing right.

[boyse7en]

boyse7en said:

1000m @ 20:38
1000m @ 20:25
500m@ 10:03

All before breakfast this morning.

I'd like to get those 1000s down closer to 20 mins (ideally just below) but I don't seem to get quicker, just keep the same pace for longer

Not sure my technique has improved that much but this morning was

1000 @ 19:06
1000 @ 19:52

Second one would have been a bit quicker but had issues with slow moving traffic in the lane

[FunkyNige]

boyse7en said:

Did the Swimathon on Sunday afternoon. My 12yo daughter did the 2500m in about 1:05, and I managed to do the 5000m in 1:49:35.
Was pleased with that as I was aiming to get it under 2 hours.
Wasn't too tired at the end either, got my pacing right.

Congratulations - it really is a lot of swimming!
I got a bit frustrated in my lane as there were 4 of us in the lane - one guy was about the same pace as me (overtook him every 20 lengths or so), a lady who was a fair bit slower (overtook every 8 lengths ish) and a guy doing tumble turns who finished about 20 minutes quicker than me (he finished in 1:31, I did 1:50). There were faster lanes and slower lanes so not sure how we all ended up together, I put down 'medium-fast' pace.
One of these years I'll train properly for it, I keep saying that but am getting slower each time I try :/

[z4RRSchris]

blast from the past thread, interesting to read.

I swam loads as a child upto 18, competitively and waterpolo.

went to uni and there was no pool, so haven't swam in anger since.

used to do 25's 50 free, 35s breast, couldnt fly so didnt bother with IM.

[cwis]

Hi all,

still slowly improving my front crawl - got the breathing MUCH better thanks to the "bubble bubble breath" exercise - many thanks for the heads up on that one.

Next thing on the list: I tend to windmill - move my arms 180 degrees apart. This gives me problems with buoyancy while I breath - I'm actually pulling with one arm as I recover the other and looking at videos of grownups doing crawl this is incorrect - I should have the other arm resting in front of me as I breath and recover the arm, and as I stick my face back in the water and the recovering arm goes in, I should then pull.

Anyone suggest any exercises to help me perfect the timing? Knowing what to do and actually doing it are two separate things at the moment!

My other half did the Swimathon 15K (I counted her lengths) all in breast stroke - 1:58 and 2:03 on the Saturday two hours apart and exactly 2:00 for the final stint on the Sunday. I'm not sure she's human...

[Mabbs9]

A drill to help develop front quadrant technique. Grab a float, arms out front both holding it. Make one full stroke with one arm grab float then repeat with the other. Keep your legs kicking meanwhile.

It's not too important to over exaggerate but does help stability and save energy.

Enjoy.

[onedsla]

Hi All,
Limping across from the running thread. I was half decent up until recently, especially at 3000-5000m (8 - 15min duration). However, a nightmare knee diagnosis means that I have to seriously curtail weight bearing exercise. I can jog 20-30mins per day for general fitness.

For morale and motivation, I've set myself a target of 5:10 for the 400 F/S. There's a local event in September (sc) which could be a good target, unless I have knee surgery before then. This is a completely new event for me, having been a sprint breaststroker with a reluctant 55s (lc) F/S.

I've been swimming for 3 weeks, having had a 20 year break from the sport, with only occasional splashabouts on holiday etc.

Today, mid session, I time trailed myself at 5:44 (sc). Could feel power dwindling from half way and probably added 2 extra strokes per length. My turns and dolphin kick are rusty which doesn't help. My running endurance seemed to be no help whatsoever - I was breaking the rules of breathing too late into the turn and on the first stroke after.

I have a few questions to those with more experience, and especially anybody who has made a comeback to swimming in their late 30s.

1) Any training plan I see typically entails all 4 strokes. I can't do b/s (probably what caused my knee woes), have no interest in fly and backstroke isn't great when others are about. With this constraint, how much training should I be doing daily? Yesterday I tried 500m up, 5 x 100, 10 x 50, 4 x 25 fast, 25 slow and about 200m to finish - and I was completely spent. Is this volume about right, or too little for the 400?
2) How much focus do I need to give to dolphin kick on the 400m? At present I surface at about 5m. Is this enough or should I be using this to save my arms?
3) Clearly my swimming fitness is poor. Would I see the fastest improvements with a) continuous swimming, b) long reps, c) short (faster) reps or mixture?
4) Any good internet resources for swimming (running is full of them, but swimming apparently more secretive)

Many thanks!

[Scabutz]

Finding decent swim plans on line is very hard. Most are aimed at adult onset swimmers or triathletes and so for yourself already way under 6 min 400m they will be useless.

You could join a masters club or alternatively find a coach to design you a plan. I have had some in the past and got good results. Or make your own plan. Find some sets, work out how may days per week and fit them in. Most swimming sets should be short < 400m. I occasionally used to do a 2x 1000m set when I was swimming 5 x a week.

Look on Swim Smooth website, some good sets on there. They are all based around CSS pace. 10x400m is a good set (called red mist). Otherwise lots of 100m. For yourself you could easily be doing 18-20 x 100m as your main set (15s rest). For speed my favourite is 4x100m, 4x50m, 4x25m all done at 100% max effort. Take lots of rest in between so you can smash each rep. 50x50m is a good set also. I split it up with 10 at relaxed pace, 10 pull, 10 build pace, 10 paddle and pull, 10 fast.

[Highway Star]

onedsla said:

Hi All,
Limping across from the running thread. I was half decent up until recently, especially at 3000-5000m (8 - 15min duration). However, a nightmare knee diagnosis means that I have to seriously curtail weight bearing exercise. I can jog 20-30mins per day for general fitness.

For morale and motivation, I've set myself a target of 5:10 for the 400 F/S. There's a local event in September (sc) which could be a good target, unless I have knee surgery before then. This is a completely new event for me, having been a sprint breaststroker with a reluctant 55s (lc) F/S.

I've been swimming for 3 weeks, having had a 20 year break from the sport, with only occasional splashabouts on holiday etc.

Today, mid session, I time trailed myself at 5:44 (sc). Could feel power dwindling from half way and probably added 2 extra strokes per length. My turns and dolphin kick are rusty which doesn't help. My running endurance seemed to be no help whatsoever - I was breaking the rules of breathing too late into the turn and on the first stroke after.

I have a few questions to those with more experience, and especially anybody who has made a comeback to swimming in their late 30s.

1) Any training plan I see typically entails all 4 strokes. I can't do b/s (probably what caused my knee woes), have no interest in fly and backstroke isn't great when others are about. With this constraint, how much training should I be doing daily? Yesterday I tried 500m up, 5 x 100, 10 x 50, 4 x 25 fast, 25 slow and about 200m to finish - and I was completely spent. Is this volume about right, or too little for the 400?
2) How much focus do I need to give to dolphin kick on the 400m? At present I surface at about 5m. Is this enough or should I be using this to save my arms?
3) Clearly my swimming fitness is poor. Would I see the fastest improvements with a) continuous swimming, b) long reps, c) short (faster) reps or mixture?
4) Any good internet resources for swimming (running is full of them, but swimming apparently more secretive)

Many thanks!

I remember your username from the running thread and you're a more than 'half decent' runner :-)

As background I made a 'comeback' to swimming in my early 30s after 15 years off and then took almost another 5 years off in my late 30s and started training again on turning 40 last year. I swim with the Masters squad at my local club and compete reasonably regularly, including Nationals. I managed a 4.35 400m in my early 30s and a couple of weeks back did a 4.50 (now aged 41) with a target of getting around 4.45 by Nationals in October. 400m and 800m free are some of my better events, but I'm really a backstroker.

1. I would consider doing some backstroke, at least in warm up/swim down and recovery parts of your sessions, just to use a greater range of muscles and get your arms turning in the opposite direction to avoid wear and tear on your shoulders. Also, be wary about smashing it daily, especially after a long time away from the pool; I can only do 3 or 4 sessions a week; any more and I get shoulder problems. The days of 40k weeks as an age grouper are long gone and all the better for it! I also try and incorporate some stretching and yoga, which as a serious runner, you might already do anyway. It looks like your session was about 1800m, which is shorter than what we do at the swimming club (we are around 3,500-4,500m a session in 90 minutes), but if you are doing that every day, the total meterage is about the same.

It will take a while to get swim fit again (it took me around a year the first time around) and it is different to run fitness IME. I was also a runner as a teenager to a pretty high standard and now try and do one run a week and I struggle to get 8 minute miles although I'm supposedly 'fit' from my swimming. Back in 2012 I tried running with a local club and after six months training did a 28.30 5 mile - there's no way I can match that pace now.

2. Sounds probably good enough and one to two dolphin kicks are enough off turns in a 400. My dolphin kick itself is pretty weak, though my turn technique is good so overall I make up ground on the turns in middle distance races. We often do c.8x25 dolphin underwater off 45 seconds at the end of a session - most use fins, but I can't because I have arthritis and gout in my ankles and feet. Decent streamlining will help as much as a strong dolphin. Also, its a balance, you want to go long off a turn, but not too long that you go hypoxic, especially early in a race.

3. Definitley not continuous swimming. A mixture of short reps and long reps works for me, but varying the recovery time and intensity accordingly. I find I get a lot out of sets of 100 to 200 if targeting a 400 race. For example last night we did 20x100, but in 4 sets of 5 with a 100m recovery after each set (so 25x100 in total). It sounds a lot, but breaking it down into the 4 sets makes it a lot more manageable and able to maintain a higher quality than just smashing 20 off the bat. Our turnaround time for the first set was 2 minutes, the second set was 1.50, the third 1.40 and last set was 1.30 with an aim of maintaining the same pace all the way through. You might want to try 12x100 in 4 sets of 3 for example.

I'd also consider some kick elements to help strengthen your kick and potentially some pull only work, though not too much as you don't want to become reliant on the extra buoyancy the pull buoy gives you - you're not a triathlete ;-)

4. I don't have any good sites for sessions as I go to a club I'm afraid, but if you are on FB, join the 'Unofficially' British Masters Swimming group and see if someone can point you in the direction of a site. The group is full of masters swimmers, many of whom are national, European or World champions in their age groups, so has a wealth of knowledge.

Oh, I wouldn't worry about the 'rules' of not breathing in and out of turns! If Sun Yang does it, so can I! I train with a guy who is amongst the best in the world at my age group (GB record holder in 800 and 1500) and he breathes out of the turn in middle distance races.

[onedsla]

Thanks so much for the tips.

In terms of getting 'swimfit', will be interesting to track progress over the year and see where I land. You may have figured that the 5:10 time came from my age group's qualifying time, but I'd wait until 2020 (will be 40) to actually compete.

My 8 year old has signed up to a local club which has a small masters team. This week I'm going to be helping out with coaching, so will see if one of the experienced coaches fancies helping with a plan - I've been too embarrassed to ask up til now, as their top swimmers are close to 4:00.

I've been training in public pools so it's a bit hit and miss as more than one other person in the lane can really screw up a session - which is one reason I often end up swimming 50m reps, even if my original plan was for longer - the interruptions are frustrating when working hard, though at least that anger can help with the faster efforts :-)

Highway Star - in the 20 x 100 session you describe, would you swim the reps at about 400m race pace?