The Running Thread Vol 2

[Inspire]

naturals said:

Yeah, finally feel like I'm making some progress. I injured my knee and foot so I had to take a month out. Then just as I was almost back to 100% I managed to step on one of those Mexican Murder Bees while on holiday. My whole foot swelled up so that was another week out of action!

I was lucky enough to be in Paris with work last week so ran a fair bit of the marathon route. It's a great route so that was a significant positive motivator, even if I did go ass over tit part way around and returned to the hotel covered in blood and bruises.

Just got to hope the last few weeks go smoother and that the weather is favourable on the day!

Glad you’re back to 100%

Yeah, the route sounds really good. I’ve watched some videos on You Tube to get a better feel for it. Film my Run (Stephen Cousins) seems to run it every year!

Hope all goes well with the rest of your training!

Thanks

Rob

[joshcowin]

over_the_hill said:

That's a good approach alternating the runs as "all easy" and tempo based.

They don't all necessarily need to be "long" long though. Otherwise you can find that you are spending most of the week
recovering from one long run just in time for the next one.

For club athletes I would work on a 3-4 week cycle on the long runs so something like

shorter
medium
medium
long

then on the next cycle

shorter + a bit
medium + a bit
medium + a bit
long + a bit

to slowly build up the miles.

The 3-4 weeks also tends to fit in with XC league races so get the cycle above tuned into the races and depending
if the race is Saturday or Sunday you can either skip the shorter one or do it "all easy" the next day.

Rather than marathon effort at the end you can alternate marathon pace and easy e.g.
2-3m easy to get going, 4 x (2m at MP, 2m easy) and that's 18m with MP work included.
Also MP deep in the run so your body gets used to what that feels like.
There are plenty of other variations you could do like - 2-3m easy then 6 x (1m MP, 1m easy) - I'm sure you get the idea.

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I like the idea of not having to do a 17+ mile run every week, after this marathon block I am going to implement what you detailed in your post, it fits in with life far better also! Guess med distance is around 13miles?

Are you doing the med runs at a certain pace or effort level? I like a steady long run effort wise!

Off to Liverpool Thursday so an easier week this week for me but will do a bit of running up there, which will be a nice change!

[Smitters]

joshcowin said:

over_the_hill said:

That's a good approach alternating the runs as "all easy" and tempo based.

They don't all necessarily need to be "long" long though. Otherwise you can find that you are spending most of the week
recovering from one long run just in time for the next one.

For club athletes I would work on a 3-4 week cycle on the long runs so something like

shorter
medium
medium
long

then on the next cycle

shorter + a bit
medium + a bit
medium + a bit
long + a bit

to slowly build up the miles.

The 3-4 weeks also tends to fit in with XC league races so get the cycle above tuned into the races and depending
if the race is Saturday or Sunday you can either skip the shorter one or do it "all easy" the next day.

Rather than marathon effort at the end you can alternate marathon pace and easy e.g.
2-3m easy to get going, 4 x (2m at MP, 2m easy) and that's 18m with MP work included.
Also MP deep in the run so your body gets used to what that feels like.
There are plenty of other variations you could do like - 2-3m easy then 6 x (1m MP, 1m easy) - I'm sure you get the idea.

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I like the idea of not having to do a 17+ mile run every week, after this marathon block I am going to implement what you detailed in your post, it fits in with life far better also! Guess med distance is around 13miles?

Are you doing the med runs at a certain pace or effort level? I like a steady long run effort wise!

Off to Liverpool Thursday so an easier week this week for me but will do a bit of running up there, which will be a nice change!

Agreed - the term "Long" isn't really detailed enough in my reply. I'm fairly simplistic in that I tend to think in terms of three runs per week as a basis; intervals, tempo, long, so in week one of a marathon schedule, "long" could be 7 miles! It's just characterising the intent in the wider framework of the plan. Everyone is different and at different stages, hence I try to avoid putting numbers/times in here as it could be quite wide of the mark.

What I am a fan of, and you (OTH) allude to a bit, is considering the overall impact of your training over a week and block, so you don't ruin all the other runs you try and achieve. If the focus of a block of four or eight weeks is establishing and experiencing fatigued marathon pace, I'd be cutting back the intensity and or volume in the weekday sessions to account for the extra work on the long run. You generally can't just add two hard finish long runs to the workload and expect the midweek fast stuff not to suffer/be pointless, so knowing the wider focus as well as the specific session focus is important.


On a completely different subject, I did my club social run and got chatting to a new guy about triathlon. As I'm just starting out in tri, I thought I'd ask as many questions as I could and get his perspective. As we clipped along, I found myself talking less and listening more. And then just gasping and listening. Turns out the easy pace of a portly 40 something desk worker and an Worlds age-group medalist are different. Christ my legs hurt today.

[JayBM]

TLDR; potential bulging disc and impact on running.

Hoping for some advice and/or sympathy

I've been running for getting on 4 years now and I've suffered with bouts of a painful lower back for even longer. Since taking up running I've actually found that it has helped with the back issues and most of the time a decent stretching routine (particular focus on psaos and glutes) has resolved any issues. When stretching hasn't resolved it a decent sports massage has.

That was until 3 or so weeks ago. I haven't done much running since a 100km run in November but had done the odd 5 or 10k session. The morning after a 10k run my glutes and psaos felt really tight but eased a little with a stretch but the following day my lower back was really painful and movement was really limited. Again some stretching eased it but only temporarily but by that evening I was struggling again. I managed to get an appointment with the sports Therapist I've used for the last 2 years and he did some deep tissue work on all the usual places but unlike other times we couldn't find any location that seemed to be causing the issue.

I struggled on for another 5 days before going back. He suggested not jumping straight to massage but doing a few tests to see if we could understand the issue better. He did a straight leg raise and slump test and it would seem as though the issue might now have progressed to a bulging disc.

Obviously I've booked an appointment with the GP (3 week wait) with the aim to get a referral for an MRI. The sports Therapist has given me some exercises to help with movement etc, I've managed to get co-codamol from the pharamist which is making the pain bareable and have invested in a desk raiser so I can stand whilst wfh.

I guess my question is, subject to the final diagnosis, has anyone any experience with recovering from a bulging disc and how that impacted both their short and long term ability to run? I'm just about coming to terms with the impact this has already had on my plans for this year but struggling to even let myself think about what it may mean for the longer term future.

TIA,
James

[joshcowin]

Smitters said:

Agreed - the term "Long" isn't really detailed enough in my reply. I'm fairly simplistic in that I tend to think in terms of three runs per week as a basis; intervals, tempo, long, so in week one of a marathon schedule, "long" could be 7 miles! It's just characterising the intent in the wider framework of the plan. Everyone is different and at different stages, hence I try to avoid putting numbers/times in here as it could be quite wide of the mark.

What I am a fan of, and you (OTH) allude to a bit, is considering the overall impact of your training over a week and block, so you don't ruin all the other runs you try and achieve. If the focus of a block of four or eight weeks is establishing and experiencing fatigued marathon pace, I'd be cutting back the intensity and or volume in the weekday sessions to account for the extra work on the long run. You generally can't just add two hard finish long runs to the workload and expect the midweek fast stuff not to suffer/be pointless, so knowing the wider focus as well as the specific session focus is important.


On a completely different subject, I did my club social run and got chatting to a new guy about triathlon. As I'm just starting out in tri, I thought I'd ask as many questions as I could and get his perspective. As we clipped along, I found myself talking less and listening more. And then just gasping and listening. Turns out the easy pace of a portly 40 something desk worker and an Worlds age-group medalist are different. Christ my legs hurt today.

"What I am a fan of, and you (OTH) allude to a bit, is considering the overall impact of your training over a week and block" - I am slowly learning that I cannot do it all and that long hard sessions have more of impact than I think!

My midweek session (wed) is usually 10-12miles with 8 miles of hard work, I then typically do an easy day (thurs) then a double run day with 3 or 4 sets of 7mins @ 5km pace (fri). I like this but I am probably not recovering enough before I hit my long run on Sat or Sun.

[Fetchez la vache]

OK looking for some advice...
I ran my first marathon at the end of October - Snowdonia Marathon, so reasonably hilly at about 750m, took it easy, took way too many photos and did it in 5hrs - felt as if I could have continued for more. Did a couple of other runs including trail run in December, then caught covid and have only run once since - 5miles at the start of Feb and felt OK.

I've now entered my first ultra - middle of June, 40miles.
Am I an idiot, & is this achievable given my lack of running the last few months? I'm aware his isn't ideal.
There's also a local hilly trail race at the start of may which is just under a marathon, but I may be better doing the half at that same event rather than push it?
I'm just after ideas as to whether it's plain stupid TBH. Btw I'm 54 if that helps...

[Piginapoke]

Fetchez la vache said:

OK looking for some advice...
I ran my first marathon at the end of October - Snowdonia Marathon, so reasonably hilly at about 750m, took it easy, took way too many photos and did it in 5hrs - felt as if I could have continued for more. Did a couple of other runs including trail run in December, then caught covid and have only run once since - 5miles at the start of Feb and felt OK.

I've now entered my first ultra - middle of June, 40miles.
Am I an idiot, & is this achievable given my lack of running the last few months? I'm aware his isn't ideal.
There's also a local hilly trail race at the start of may which is just under a marathon, but I may be better doing the half at that same event rather than push it?
I'm just after ideas as to whether it's plain stupid TBH. Btw I'm 54 if that helps...

It’s a big ask but you clearly have the base fitness. I understand the trick is walking up the hills

[smn159]

Fetchez la vache said:

OK looking for some advice...
I ran my first marathon at the end of October - Snowdonia Marathon, so reasonably hilly at about 750m, took it easy, took way too many photos and did it in 5hrs - felt as if I could have continued for more. Did a couple of other runs including trail run in December, then caught covid and have only run once since - 5miles at the start of Feb and felt OK.

I've now entered my first ultra - middle of June, 40miles.
Am I an idiot, & is this achievable given my lack of running the last few months? I'm aware his isn't ideal.
There's also a local hilly trail race at the start of may which is just under a marathon, but I may be better doing the half at that same event rather than push it?
I'm just after ideas as to whether it's plain stupid TBH. Btw I'm 54 if that helps...

Nearly 4 months to go so plenty of time - as long as you're not looking for a place on the podium you'll be fine

[Smitters]

Fetchez la vache said:

OK looking for some advice...
I ran my first marathon at the end of October - Snowdonia Marathon, so reasonably hilly at about 750m, took it easy, took way too many photos and did it in 5hrs - felt as if I could have continued for more. Did a couple of other runs including trail run in December, then caught covid and have only run once since - 5miles at the start of Feb and felt OK.

I've now entered my first ultra - middle of June, 40miles.
Am I an idiot, & is this achievable given my lack of running the last few months? I'm aware his isn't ideal.
There's also a local hilly trail race at the start of may which is just under a marathon, but I may be better doing the half at that same event rather than push it?
I'm just after ideas as to whether it's plain stupid TBH. Btw I'm 54 if that helps...

Agreed - distance should be fine as long as you swing back to training (without panicking and overdoing!) Caveat would be if there is anything unusual, like mega hills, pan flat, irritatingly rolling, covered in stiles, then make sure you account for that. Time on feet is key, and combining walking into your runs at this early stage is a good way to do e.g. four hours on feet and only run for two to three... and this means eventually you could be out for 6 hours plus, but still recover pretty easily as the overall training stress is relatively low.

Edited by Smitters on Friday 24th February 08:46

[redrabbit29]

Returned for a track session with my running club last night - did a pyramid session which was really good. I was slow but I felt I managed it fairly well and didn't push myself too much.

Garmin describing my condition as "Strained" and VO2 max decreasing is annoying. Particularly as I feel I haven't done that much:

Saturday: Park Run
Sunday: Fairly relaxed 6 mile walk in countryside/hills
Monday: Total rest day
Tuesday: 60 minutes turbo session
Wednesday: 45 minutes turbo + the track session

I won't run again until Saturday. Plan is to do Parkrun then after 2-3 minutes at the end to keep going for a slow 5k to try to start increasing mileage again

[Smitters]

redrabbit29 said:

Returned for a track session with my running club last night - did a pyramid session which was really good. I was slow but I felt I managed it fairly well and didn't push myself too much.

Garmin describing my condition as "Strained" and VO2 max decreasing is annoying. Particularly as I feel I haven't done that much:

Saturday: Park Run
Sunday: Fairly relaxed 6 mile walk in countryside/hills
Monday: Total rest day
Tuesday: 60 minutes turbo session
Wednesday: 45 minutes turbo + the track session

I won't run again until Saturday. Plan is to do Parkrun then after 2-3 minutes at the end to keep going for a slow 5k to try to start increasing mileage again

On the one hand, I get irritated when my Garmin tells me I'm unproductive when I feel I've had a good session. On the other hand, unproductive as a training status and then me being ill a few days later happens too often to be a coincidence, so I've grudgingly accepted that it knows what's up. Maybe it was thrown by the sudden double day of turbo and track?

Good explanation of Training Status here: https://www.garmin.com/en-GB/garmin-technology/run...

[Fetchez la vache]

Smitters said:

Fetchez la vache said:

OK looking for some advice...
I ran my first marathon at the end of October - Snowdonia Marathon, so reasonably hilly at about 750m, took it easy, took way too many photos and did it in 5hrs - felt as if I could have continued for more. Did a couple of other runs including trail run in December, then caught covid and have only run once since - 5miles at the start of Feb and felt OK.

I've now entered my first ultra - middle of June, 40miles.
Am I an idiot, & is this achievable given my lack of running the last few months? I'm aware his isn't ideal.
There's also a local hilly trail race at the start of may which is just under a marathon, but I may be better doing the half at that same event rather than push it?
I'm just after ideas as to whether it's plain stupid TBH. Btw I'm 54 if that helps...

Agreed - distance should be fine as long as you swing back to training (without panicking and overdoing!) Caveat would be if there is anything unusual, like mega hills, pan flat, irritatingly rolling, covered in stiles, then make sure you account for that. Time on feet is key, and combining walking into your runs at this early stage is a good way to do e.g. four hours on feet and only run for two to three... and this means eventually you could be out for 6 hours plus, but still recover pretty easily as the overall training stress is relatively low.

Thanks for the helpful replies (Piginapoke, smn159 too..)
Including walking in the running training isn't something I had considered TBH - do plenty of walking with the dogs but not as part of training.
Thanks all

[Smitters]

Fetchez la vache said:

Thanks for the helpful replies (Piginapoke, smn159 too..)
Including walking in the running training isn't something I had considered TBH - do plenty of walking with the dogs but not as part of training.
Thanks all

Definitely worth factoring in walking unless you are genuinely thinking of running the whole thing. Even then, a 40m pace will be a long way below a marathon pace for most, so moving at this very low pace is worth a practice too otherwise it's easy to set off at what feels easy and definitely isn't easy after five hours!

A 65min 10k, felt pretty easy. But, at the start of a 35 mile day on a coastal path as part of a three day event, was a disastrous error and part of the reason for a DNF! Only did that once!

[irish boy]

For me less is more. Rarely do more than 25 miles in a week. Long run never more than 10 miles. But consistency. Week in week out rain hail or shine.

Never done a marathon or intend to but the low mileage has kept me injury and fatigue free but got 5k into the 16’s and 1.26 in the half last year at 45.

[The jiffle king]

irish boy said:

For me less is more. Rarely do more than 25 miles in a week. Long run never more than 10 miles. But consistency. Week in week out rain hail or shine.

Never done a marathon or intend to but the low mileage has kept me injury and fatigue free but got 5k into the 16’s and 1.26 in the half last year at 45.

Remarkably similar to me. Used to do 50+ miles a week but now 25 is about usual. Ran a 36.xx off that and would be aiming at a 1:18 half this weekend without this cold

Agree with consistency being the critical element

[Otispunkmeyer]

So, been to the physio and also tried some "neutral" shoes instead of support shoes (for pronation).

Issue resolved!

I couldn't say if it was the physio or the shoe so I stopped doing what the physio asked of me and slowly the pain was just poking it's head out. So I think a bit of both are having an effect.

On the physio side, they said my feet are incredibly stiff in the "pointing toes upward" direction. She had to put some force in just to bring my foot to "0" (presumably perpendicular to leg). I've spent 20yrs+ with pointed toes for swimming so makes sense? Anyway after some forced stretching and one of the most uncomfortable foot massages I've ever had on the metatarsals area. My feet felt like new!

So now got a little stretching routine and a solid ball to roll the bottom of my feet on.

On the shoes front. I think using support shoes was tipping some weight forward some how onto the front of the foot. So all the pressure was there. in the neutral shoes things feel more spread. Also I've worked out that I really don't need much it any tightness across the top of my feet. This wants to be quite loose. I use heel lock basically to get some secureness around the ankle, but otherwise leave the rest of the foot with breathing space.

I used to cinch down the laces so that the foot was very snug all over, with pressure over the top down to the toes. Seems like that might have been the wrong thing to do.

I'm actually going to try my support shoes (saucony guide) again just see if the same changes work there if it really is the shoe. But right now I got a cheap pair of saucony rides and everything feels good.

[The jiffle king]

Wokingham half this morning. Not in race shape so did a tempo which enabled me to chat to some people and pace a couple up the hills.

Nice event but changed a lot in the 15 years since I last ran it

[Piginapoke]

20 mile race this morning, 32k. Felt ok, 2hrs 31min, happy with that as an old man

[Inspire]

27k easy run this morning in prep for the Paris marathon - 5 weeks today! Had a really long hot bath afterwards and so my legs don’t feel too bad as a result - just a slightly unhappy right knee (IT band!) and grumpy left ankle - the joys of marathon training! I have no idea how people manage to do more than two marathons a year!

Thanks

Rob

[Harpoon]

New 10k PB on Saturday - 46:00. Improvement of about 50 seconds and brings a sub 45 into view...

Grabbed with both hands as I'd only done 6 runs (33km) before Saturday this year. Lack of running in the legs but good endurance base from cycling - 1300km year to date.