The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
joshcowin said:
Austin_Metro said:
Josh, from what you’ve said on here, you’re a more experienced runner than me … but I occasionally use my hr mid run to make sure I’m not going too hard and can pace my race. I did a park run recently and did first 2k at 4m 15 a km that’s quite quick for me … and basically too fast as I was near maximum hr. So I backed off for two km and then had a bit in the tank for the last 800m to drop under my pb.
If you hadn't have looked at your HR could you have maintained that pace for the 5km? I would be worried that if I started tracking my HR I would run to numbers rather than run to how I feel which is ultimatly your body telling you how you can perform that day! I only ever go on feel and everyday is different!I am off to look at some HR data now to see what I can learn.
redrabbit29 said:
I think it's personal preference. I don't think you're right or wrong. Some runners I know just ignore it and never look, they go by feel primarily.
I'm the oppositte. Mainly as I'm very anal and hate feeling like I'm not doing the right thing so looking at a pretty number helps me think that I'm doing something right.
When I do, i usually glance down every few minutes. Often I will look if I feel really good and want to see if my HR is as low as it feels, similarly if I am really struggling. I often do it try to try to ensure I am staying in Zone 2 (for me that's about 150bpm - that kind of range).
It benefits me as often I will feel like I'm going easy, look down and see my HR is much higher so I then either slow right down, or just walk for 30 seconds before resuming
Not saying there is a right and wrong at all, I am trying to learn more about it as I have never used it. Its recorded by my watch but I use pace to determine easy, threshold ... I'm the oppositte. Mainly as I'm very anal and hate feeling like I'm not doing the right thing so looking at a pretty number helps me think that I'm doing something right.
When I do, i usually glance down every few minutes. Often I will look if I feel really good and want to see if my HR is as low as it feels, similarly if I am really struggling. I often do it try to try to ensure I am staying in Zone 2 (for me that's about 150bpm - that kind of range).
It benefits me as often I will feel like I'm going easy, look down and see my HR is much higher so I then either slow right down, or just walk for 30 seconds before resuming
From what has been said I would worry that I would be on a good day and having a great session then look down and see my HR isn't where I want it to be and then I'd back off, ruining the session based on data and not feel.
Basically it would be a complete mindset change for me!
joshcowin said:
redrabbit29 said:
I think it's personal preference. I don't think you're right or wrong. Some runners I know just ignore it and never look, they go by feel primarily.
I'm the oppositte. Mainly as I'm very anal and hate feeling like I'm not doing the right thing so looking at a pretty number helps me think that I'm doing something right.
When I do, i usually glance down every few minutes. Often I will look if I feel really good and want to see if my HR is as low as it feels, similarly if I am really struggling. I often do it try to try to ensure I am staying in Zone 2 (for me that's about 150bpm - that kind of range).
It benefits me as often I will feel like I'm going easy, look down and see my HR is much higher so I then either slow right down, or just walk for 30 seconds before resuming
Not saying there is a right and wrong at all, I am trying to learn more about it as I have never used it. Its recorded by my watch but I use pace to determine easy, threshold ... I'm the oppositte. Mainly as I'm very anal and hate feeling like I'm not doing the right thing so looking at a pretty number helps me think that I'm doing something right.
When I do, i usually glance down every few minutes. Often I will look if I feel really good and want to see if my HR is as low as it feels, similarly if I am really struggling. I often do it try to try to ensure I am staying in Zone 2 (for me that's about 150bpm - that kind of range).
It benefits me as often I will feel like I'm going easy, look down and see my HR is much higher so I then either slow right down, or just walk for 30 seconds before resuming
From what has been said I would worry that I would be on a good day and having a great session then look down and see my HR isn't where I want it to be and then I'd back off, ruining the session based on data and not feel.
Basically it would be a complete mindset change for me!
/\/\/\/\ Yep, easy pace for me can vary quite significantly depending on where I am fitness wise and if I try and run easy days by feel I almost always end up going too fast and spending the run at the low end of my tempo pace.
Easy for me is usually slower than it feels that it should be and while going faster isn't a problem if I'm only running a few times a week it does become a real issue during high mileage weeks
Easy for me is usually slower than it feels that it should be and while going faster isn't a problem if I'm only running a few times a week it does become a real issue during high mileage weeks
joshcowin said:
If you hadn't have looked at your HR could you have maintained that pace for the 5km? I would be worried that if I started tracking my HR I would run to numbers rather than run to how I feel which is ultimatly your body telling you how you can perform that day! I only ever go on feel and everyday is different!
I am off to look at some HR data now to see what I can learn.
No I couldn’t run for 5k at 4m15s pace - my body told me that so I looked to see what my heart rate data was saying. I am off to look at some HR data now to see what I can learn.
I think I run how my body feels and just check it vs the numbers. I didn’t feel great that day, but after 2k at 15s a km inside my 5k pb pace I knew I had to back off but as I was ahead of the clock if I did two kms at 4m 30 a km I’d be 30s ahead of pb with 1km to go.
In fact, those third and fourth kms were slower at 4m 40s so with a 4m 30s final k I ducked in below pb.
I think I used it to get a pb when I was in with a shout. I find it very motivating and I’d be pead off if I missed about by a few seconds.
There’s obviously a question on my race approach … but I didn’t really have one as I hadn’t run for a few weeks, felt rubbish and got a pb there before when I had felt good and run a lot.
Austin_Metro said:
joshcowin said:
If you hadn't have looked at your HR could you have maintained that pace for the 5km? I would be worried that if I started tracking my HR I would run to numbers rather than run to how I feel which is ultimatly your body telling you how you can perform that day! I only ever go on feel and everyday is different!
I am off to look at some HR data now to see what I can learn.
No I couldn’t run for 5k at 4m15s pace - my body told me that so I looked to see what my heart rate data was saying. I am off to look at some HR data now to see what I can learn.
I think I run how my body feels and just check it vs the numbers. I didn’t feel great that day, but after 2k at 15s a km inside my 5k pb pace I knew I had to back off but as I was ahead of the clock if I did two kms at 4m 30 a km I’d be 30s ahead of pb with 1km to go.
In fact, those third and fourth kms were slower at 4m 40s so with a 4m 30s final k I ducked in below pb.
I think I used it to get a pb when I was in with a shout. I find it very motivating and I’d be pead off if I missed about by a few seconds.
There’s obviously a question on my race approach … but I didn’t really have one as I hadn’t run for a few weeks, felt rubbish and got a pb there before when I had felt good and run a lot.
Anecdote - when I ran my PB of 21.25 a while back it was a good 30 seconds quicker than my previous best. I'd decided to track progress by checking my elapsed time at 4k to decide whether I was on for a PB or not and had the wrong time in my head - I thought that by pushing for the last KM I could just about beat my PB but was actually well inside it. If I'd known that I might not have pushed so hard...
I've taken the plunge and joined my local running club.
I won't bore everyone with the details, but lets just say my fitness and waist line are not what they used to be. Even before then, I was never really a runner and only did it to keep me fit for rugby (proud member of the Front Row Union to give you an idea) but I've sadly had to retire due to injury. Over recent months I have been slowly building my fitness back up with regular 5km runs - my house to the local reservoir and back is pretty much bang on 5km.
Been on two club runs so far, and everyone has made this overweight plodder very welcome.
I won't bore everyone with the details, but lets just say my fitness and waist line are not what they used to be. Even before then, I was never really a runner and only did it to keep me fit for rugby (proud member of the Front Row Union to give you an idea) but I've sadly had to retire due to injury. Over recent months I have been slowly building my fitness back up with regular 5km runs - my house to the local reservoir and back is pretty much bang on 5km.
Been on two club runs so far, and everyone has made this overweight plodder very welcome.
CardinalBlue said:
I've taken the plunge and joined my local running club.
I won't bore everyone with the details, but lets just say my fitness and waist line are not what they used to be. Even before then, I was never really a runner and only did it to keep me fit for rugby (proud member of the Front Row Union to give you an idea) but I've sadly had to retire due to injury. Over recent months I have been slowly building my fitness back up with regular 5km runs - my house to the local reservoir and back is pretty much bang on 5km.
Been on two club runs so far, and everyone has made this overweight plodder very welcome.
Brilliant - I suspect you’re really enjoy it! My club is very social (rather than competitive) so there is lots talking, stopping for pictures, looking at the views, with some running mixed in. I still end up working quite hard, without really realising it.I won't bore everyone with the details, but lets just say my fitness and waist line are not what they used to be. Even before then, I was never really a runner and only did it to keep me fit for rugby (proud member of the Front Row Union to give you an idea) but I've sadly had to retire due to injury. Over recent months I have been slowly building my fitness back up with regular 5km runs - my house to the local reservoir and back is pretty much bang on 5km.
Been on two club runs so far, and everyone has made this overweight plodder very welcome.
Thanks
Rob
smn159 said:
That's interesting. I wonder if you hadn't looked at your watch at all you could have pushed a bit harder? My experience is that, once you have good base fitness, a lot of performance is in your head. Reads as though you checked your pace and decided that it was too quick and your body reacted to that information - I know as this has happened to me too.
Anecdote - when I ran my PB of 21.25 a while back it was a good 30 seconds quicker than my previous best. I'd decided to track progress by checking my elapsed time at 4k to decide whether I was on for a PB or not and had the wrong time in my head - I thought that by pushing for the last KM I could just about beat my PB but was actually well inside it. If I'd known that I might not have pushed so hard...
That's what I have been trying to say! Anecdote - when I ran my PB of 21.25 a while back it was a good 30 seconds quicker than my previous best. I'd decided to track progress by checking my elapsed time at 4k to decide whether I was on for a PB or not and had the wrong time in my head - I thought that by pushing for the last KM I could just about beat my PB but was actually well inside it. If I'd known that I might not have pushed so hard...
joshcowin said:
That's what I have been trying to say!
I don’t think I could. I’d overcooked the first two km and knew it. Without looking at heart rate. I then probably wound back to 90-95% effort and went harder for last 400m. Just lay on the ground to get my breath back … so I think I gave it everything.
Perhaps one for the more experienced.
A really good lead indicator for 5km race pace. Is a track session of 6 x 800M (2 min jog recoveries). If you get each interval relatively even, the average pace for the session ( not including the jog recovery) has proven very accurate many times over for me + / - 1-2 secs / km. and my training partner. The point is you should be able to start the race at this pace and have the confidence you should not fade.
This assumes a decent weekly volume for 5km racing c.50km / week +. And a weekly solid 10 mile long run etc. And 2-3months of consistent training in the bag, followed by a race week taper!
A really good lead indicator for 5km race pace. Is a track session of 6 x 800M (2 min jog recoveries). If you get each interval relatively even, the average pace for the session ( not including the jog recovery) has proven very accurate many times over for me + / - 1-2 secs / km. and my training partner. The point is you should be able to start the race at this pace and have the confidence you should not fade.
This assumes a decent weekly volume for 5km racing c.50km / week +. And a weekly solid 10 mile long run etc. And 2-3months of consistent training in the bag, followed by a race week taper!
Mankers said:
Perhaps one for the more experienced.
A really good lead indicator for 5km race pace. Is a track session of 6 x 800M (2 min jog recoveries). If you get each interval relatively even, the average pace for the session ( not including the jog recovery) has proven very accurate many times over for me + / - 1-2 secs / km. and my training partner. The point is you should be able to start the race at this pace and have the confidence you should not fade.
This assumes a decent weekly volume for 5km racing c.50km / week +. And a weekly solid 10 mile long run etc. And 2-3months of consistent training in the bag, followed by a race week taper!
Thats a really good barometer for 5k pace. A really good lead indicator for 5km race pace. Is a track session of 6 x 800M (2 min jog recoveries). If you get each interval relatively even, the average pace for the session ( not including the jog recovery) has proven very accurate many times over for me + / - 1-2 secs / km. and my training partner. The point is you should be able to start the race at this pace and have the confidence you should not fade.
This assumes a decent weekly volume for 5km racing c.50km / week +. And a weekly solid 10 mile long run etc. And 2-3months of consistent training in the bag, followed by a race week taper!
For marathon pace there is a similar one called Yasso's which is essentially 10 x 800m and you convert your average split for each 800m rep to hours and minutes e.g. your average 800m rep is 3 minutes 43 seconds, then your marathon pace should be 3 hours 43 minutes. Its a rough rule of thumb but helps you know whether you are on track for what you want
boholoblanka said:
Morning
Quick one: how many pairs of runners have you got that you actively use for running?
I don't do that much running anymore, butQuick one: how many pairs of runners have you got that you actively use for running?
2 x every day mizuno wave riders (380 miles and 120 miles)
1 x speedwork shoe (Mizuno wave Sayonara - 280 miles) - yes it's years old
2 x trail (Inov8) and Brookes Manzana
2 x race shoes (vaporfly and alphafly)
I have 1 pair of wave riders ready to go when the first set get to about 500miles (I start to get niggles when they have done that many) and I have 3 sets of old wave riders which I use in the summer for DIY/outdoor jobs
boholoblanka said:
Morning
Quick one: how many pairs of runners have you got that you actively use for running?
5 pairsQuick one: how many pairs of runners have you got that you actively use for running?
Nike Pegasus Trail for off road / mixed runs
New Balance 880 for 100% road runs / long intervals
Nike Air Zoom Pegasus for road racing / short intervals
Salomon Sense Ride for trail / rough terrain
Cross country spikes for wrecking my calves 4 times each winter (Birmingham League XCs)
HR vs pace is an interesting one. I side with HR. Both definitely have value and to a large extent, achieve the same thing in training, as long as you approach it with some thought.
To clarify, I don't run to an exact HR, I run within an HR range and I assume those who run to pace are aiming to be within a certain pace range too. Most calculators of such things will give you ranges from easy, tempo, VO2 max, long interval, short interval etc. They typically also calculate HR ranges alongside.
Of everything I've learned about training, two things stick out for me as the most impactful. The first, is consistency trumps everything. The second is the 80/20 rule. 80% of running at Z2/conversational/easy pace and 20% at higher intensity. Especially when considering your average middle-aged fun runner, time for recovery, the ability to be consistent by limiting the hard sessions, and capping stress from exercise when life is also often throwing stress at you makes for a longer running career in my view. If you can run to pace and not trash yourself every session, great, but I think a lot of experienced runners forget what it's like as a relative newbie who finds pace judgement hard. Particularly when you need to be going slower that you want to.
Here's why I use HR.
1) I am variably fit. I chop and change sports a bit depending on my goals, family and injury-state. So my tempo run pace would be different at different times of year, whereas, for the most part, the HR range in which I run tempo stays the same. Ergo, simpler for my little brain. I have a good idea of my max HR at any given time and I track my resting HR.
2) Although I use RPE alongside, I use HR to both slow myself down on a good day to meet the objective of the training plan, and not over-fatigue myself later in the week. I also use it to eyeball my overall state of health. I obviously have pace expectations for each HR after a period of consistent training, so using HR in conjunction with pace allows me to spot fatigue, illness etc. A higher HR for a given pace is a little red flag for me, as is a depressed HR on a harder session. HR for me is thus a holistic tool - it takes into account my existing fatigue, mental and physical state and so on to get me a workout at a particular stress-level. Pace is the by product.
3) I live in and run in a hilly area. Pace is often an irrelevant metric and bears little relation to intensity of the run.
4) Similar to point 1, if I am training for a race, I may have a time goal in mind, but because of that variable fitness, I often get those newbie-gains pace jumps. In a season I might do two 10km races and get a 49 and a 44. A consistent club runner's times might vary by 30 seconds over the season. Therefore, training at race pace, or at paces designed to serve a certain race pace, on day one of a training plan will be impossible. For me, race pace is an outcome of the level of success I have in following a training plan at a set HR range for each type of run.
5) I tend to turn HR off after the first few miles of a race, once I've made sure I'm not going way too fast. I'll very often leave my watch on it's clock face as it gets to a point where, as long as I know how far I have to go, I'm basically racing as fast as I can to the line. Stats are irrelevant at that point.
That's my take on it. But if in doubt, 3x30mins per week, one easy, one middling and one hard. If everyone did that, the whole population would be a lot healthier.
To clarify, I don't run to an exact HR, I run within an HR range and I assume those who run to pace are aiming to be within a certain pace range too. Most calculators of such things will give you ranges from easy, tempo, VO2 max, long interval, short interval etc. They typically also calculate HR ranges alongside.
Of everything I've learned about training, two things stick out for me as the most impactful. The first, is consistency trumps everything. The second is the 80/20 rule. 80% of running at Z2/conversational/easy pace and 20% at higher intensity. Especially when considering your average middle-aged fun runner, time for recovery, the ability to be consistent by limiting the hard sessions, and capping stress from exercise when life is also often throwing stress at you makes for a longer running career in my view. If you can run to pace and not trash yourself every session, great, but I think a lot of experienced runners forget what it's like as a relative newbie who finds pace judgement hard. Particularly when you need to be going slower that you want to.
Here's why I use HR.
1) I am variably fit. I chop and change sports a bit depending on my goals, family and injury-state. So my tempo run pace would be different at different times of year, whereas, for the most part, the HR range in which I run tempo stays the same. Ergo, simpler for my little brain. I have a good idea of my max HR at any given time and I track my resting HR.
2) Although I use RPE alongside, I use HR to both slow myself down on a good day to meet the objective of the training plan, and not over-fatigue myself later in the week. I also use it to eyeball my overall state of health. I obviously have pace expectations for each HR after a period of consistent training, so using HR in conjunction with pace allows me to spot fatigue, illness etc. A higher HR for a given pace is a little red flag for me, as is a depressed HR on a harder session. HR for me is thus a holistic tool - it takes into account my existing fatigue, mental and physical state and so on to get me a workout at a particular stress-level. Pace is the by product.
3) I live in and run in a hilly area. Pace is often an irrelevant metric and bears little relation to intensity of the run.
4) Similar to point 1, if I am training for a race, I may have a time goal in mind, but because of that variable fitness, I often get those newbie-gains pace jumps. In a season I might do two 10km races and get a 49 and a 44. A consistent club runner's times might vary by 30 seconds over the season. Therefore, training at race pace, or at paces designed to serve a certain race pace, on day one of a training plan will be impossible. For me, race pace is an outcome of the level of success I have in following a training plan at a set HR range for each type of run.
5) I tend to turn HR off after the first few miles of a race, once I've made sure I'm not going way too fast. I'll very often leave my watch on it's clock face as it gets to a point where, as long as I know how far I have to go, I'm basically racing as fast as I can to the line. Stats are irrelevant at that point.
That's my take on it. But if in doubt, 3x30mins per week, one easy, one middling and one hard. If everyone did that, the whole population would be a lot healthier.
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