The Running Thread Vol 2

[tenohfive]

ukaskew said:

Any Tailwind users here? Bit of a revelation using it for my 3+ hour trail race yesterday in warm conditions. Got through 1.5l of water with two sticks of Tailwind and felt great after, no headache (which I've always got after a long run) and not hungry either.

Stomach was absolutely fine, it tasted good even when warm and it went down very easily (the naked version is pretty much like drinking water).

I hate gels with a passion so very pleased I've found an alternative.

I've tried it, the packets are a nightmare to open but I suppose they can be decanted. No issues with it but didn't think it was amazing either...just okay. Good calorie content mind.

I used a lot more Nuun Plus during my last ultra though - two tabs is 60 calories, so 2 per bottle=120cal per water refill. Much more convenient at aid stations and no taste. I just used it to keep the calories topped up (knowing that there would be times I'd miss taking a gel through terrain or stomach going etc.)

I do need to come back to Tailwind alternatives - found myself really struggling with gels and energy bars late in races. I'm thinking starting solids and gels to start then moving onto shots and hydration based calories towards the end might be worth considering.

Which race btw?

[tenohfive]

Cybertronian said:

Still shows as £469 for me, even whilst logged in.

I am with Vitality for life insurance, which nets me 40% off Garmins at full RRP. Will take a look at that angle once they start shipping from Garmin's site direct.

I also pondered over the mapping functionality of the Fenix 5X, but further reading indicates all the lower down models and the 935 have the direction arrow, which would be enough for me. I have a dreadful sense of direction, but love to explore new locations when I'm away travelling or with work - would save me having to print out or study a route in detail.

I can currently get the FR935 for £382. I do need something with the battery life for the sort of running I'm doing. Only thing stopping me going ahead is the question mark over whether I'll see it any cheaper in the next 6 months. Thoughts anyone?

[KTF]

tenohfive said:

I can currently get the FR935 for £382. I do need something with the battery life for the sort of running I'm doing. Only thing stopping me going ahead is the question mark over whether I'll see it any cheaper in the next 6 months. Thoughts anyone?

The 935 isn't even available to buy from a Garmin direct. The chances of a discount in the next 6 months are almost zero I would say.

[feef]

Was up at my folks in Scotland last week, but took my kit with me and squeezed in 3 runs. Not quite 5k a time but as it involved hills (which is something we don't have around here) I forgave myself.
Been out a few times since I got back, including a gentle recce this evening with a map to check out some nice routes on trails around the fields.

Was a lovely evening for a run.

Are there any strava groups for PH runners?

[ukaskew]

tenohfive said:

Which race btw?

Maverick Original Dorset. 'Only' 22k but I'm slow enough on the hilly stuff to need the boost (and lots of water). Some around me just used the stations (8 and 11 miles) despite the organisers recommending water/food, and were really struggling in the warm conditions.

It was a good day of firsts all round, inov8 were there with demo shoes so I ran in a pair of Roclites that they loaned me. Was looking to buy anyhow and they were perfect, so ticked those off the list. Also first time with a vest (inov8 Race Ultra 5) which again was spot on, didn't even notice it on despite carrying 2l of fluid and my camera.

[RizzoTheRat]

Did Decathalon's free 5k on Sunday, bloody hell it was hot, I did a road 5k no quicker than I'd done a crowded offroad parkrun the day before. Clearly I need to acclimatise to the heat

[KTF]

feef said:

Are there any strava groups for PH runners?

I made one a year or so ago. Up to 60 members now: https://www.strava.com/clubs/pistonheads-running

[Smitters]

feef said:

Are there any strava groups for PH runners?

https://www.strava.com/clubs/pistonheads-running

Re Tailwind, a mate who does ultras rates it, but as with all these things, it's horses for courses. I want to get back to using nutrition in my bottles. Been using zero cal salt tabs for a while, but it seems daft to miss out on 120kcal/bottle when you carry the same weight of tab.

Managed a good end of week's running. Thursday was a weird 3 hours on my feet, joining in the search for a missing elderly lady in the local area. I didn't find here, but thankfully she was found the next day. She'd been out for three nights! I did lots of up and down on a steep set of fields, shredded my new shorts, favourite socks and legs on brambles, but kept thinking "what if it was my Mum", until it was so dark I was slipping about, not seeing much and generally risking turning my own ankles.

Took parkrun easy on Saturday, slow start and a good build up of speed. Managed a royal flush of km splits, each one faster than the next and got under 25 mins pushing my boy in his buggy, on grass, which is great for me.

Sunday was my make or breaker - after a horrific 19km last week I just had to see if my legs are coming back, so recced a section of my upcoming trail marathon course and got 28km done in about three hours, finishing strong with the final flat five km done in 26.30. Resting today and this week generally, but very pleased as I'm going on holiday over Easter, so will have ten days of really good training weather to get a decent step forward in speed and endurance.

[Tycho]

tenohfive said:

Cybertronian said:

Still shows as £469 for me, even whilst logged in.

I am with Vitality for life insurance, which nets me 40% off Garmins at full RRP. Will take a look at that angle once they start shipping from Garmin's site direct.

I also pondered over the mapping functionality of the Fenix 5X, but further reading indicates all the lower down models and the 935 have the direction arrow, which would be enough for me. I have a dreadful sense of direction, but love to explore new locations when I'm away travelling or with work - would save me having to print out or study a route in detail.

I can currently get the FR935 for £382. I do need something with the battery life for the sort of running I'm doing. Only thing stopping me going ahead is the question mark over whether I'll see it any cheaper in the next 6 months. Thoughts anyone?

If you don't mind 2nd hand I bought a Fenix 3 form Cex for £215 and bought a new HRM run strap for £45 from GB outdoor.

The Fenix is an A grade so I got it in the box and it looks like someone took it out of he box and put it straight back in. It is spotless.

[AndStilliRise]

Smitters said:

Challo said:

northandy said:

AndStilliRise said:

Do sprints help with running fast?

The reason why i ask is that over the last few weeks i have been doing quality sessions once or twice a week however have not noticed any increase in running speed? Today i did 6*0.5m with 60sec recovery. HR MAX was 160 and i found with a 60sec recovery HR was 115.

What am i doing wrong?

I joined a club in January and didn't feel I was getting much improvement. I had run a sub 20min parkrun last October but been nowhere since after my first marathon. However after regular sessions I feel a lot quicker now, I have knocked 20 seconds off my best parkrun last Saturday. I think in time you'll find improvement will come

I wouldn't say sprints help but certainly running different paces over different distances helped me. I joined a running club run by a friend who builds a plan based around your individual requirements. Each session varies but aimed around threshold training. Its improved my running no end and managed to knock 30secs off my km/p pace which im chuffed with.

This totally depends on age, max HR etc, but on the face of it, I would say that you're not running hard enough in the efforts and not resting long enough between. Therefore you're sort of between two stools really. I'd have thought, based on your other posts, you could run a lot further than 3 miles at 160 bpm, so doing six times 0.5 miles with rests isn't really stressing you, and so developing you.

I like the McMillan website a lot, as it explains all the various sessions clearly. Two general possibilities are:

A tempo run - Challenges your threshold between easy and hard. Usually 10 to 40 minutes. Effort is medium. Comfortably hard running. Used once every seven to fourteen days as a marathon approaches to improve lactate threshold. 30-40 mins is the max for tempo runs. Any more and the effort will be too hard, like a race, or you're not running hard enough, since you can sustain it. Session would be 2km/10 min WU, 10-30 mins at tempo, 2km/10min CD at 80-85% of your HR reserve (Polar's description of HR reserve - http://support.polar.com/uk-en/support/heart_rate_...

400m repeats - 4 x to 10 x 400m per session - Improves ability to run fast, maximises oxygen delivery to the muscles and increases ability to remove lactic acid. Develops mental toughness when facing severe fatigue. 2km WU, 4 -10 x 400m per session with 200m jog recoveries, min 1km CD. Hard effort at 90-100% of HR reserve

Thanks man.

[feef]

KTF said:

feef said:

Are there any strava groups for PH runners?

I made one a year or so ago. Up to 60 members now: https://www.strava.com/clubs/pistonheads-running

Found it.

Ta

[The jiffle king]

Running in the heat... I'm not an expert, but having lived in Barcelona for 3 1/2 years and now in Georgia US for 2 years, I've had some practice and I find that it's not the heat that hurts it's the difference in temperature, so here are a couple of things I have used.
- If you think it might be hot, get used to hydrating in the 3 days before a race. Sure you will need the toilet more, but it will help
- Wear suncream.... sound obvious, but even for a 5k, it helps
- rehydrate during the run, even 5k races here in the US have water stations
- expect to be slower as your body is having to generate lots of sweat to cool you down
- keep cool before the race, find shade and don't stand around in the sun
- hydrate as soon as you finish... think 500ml minimum for every 20 minutes you ran and ideally 1 litre which sounds like too much, but you would be amazed how much you leak

Couple of examples of how the heat impacts
1) Last year I ran a 5k at 6pm at night in 37C and was about 20 seconds slower than I was the prior saturday when it was just 25C
2) I ran home 6 miles from work with 1 litre of water and ran out in 34C heat. I think had 2 litres of water in the next 30 minutes with gatorade/nuun

May to October, nearly every run I do will be at 20C or above and twice a week, I will run at 6pm in 30C+ so I know you can get used to it, but it's really the change in temperature which is the challenge

[Cybertronian]

The jiffle king said:

Running in the heat... I'm not an expert, but having lived in Barcelona for 3 1/2 years and now in Georgia US for 2 years, I've had some practice and I find that it's not the heat that hurts it's the difference in temperature, so here are a couple of things I have used.
- If you think it might be hot, get used to hydrating in the 3 days before a race. Sure you will need the toilet more, but it will help
- Wear suncream.... sound obvious, but even for a 5k, it helps
- rehydrate during the run, even 5k races here in the US have water stations
- expect to be slower as your body is having to generate lots of sweat to cool you down
- keep cool before the race, find shade and don't stand around in the sun
- hydrate as soon as you finish... think 500ml minimum for every 20 minutes you ran and ideally 1 litre which sounds like too much, but you would be amazed how much you leak

Couple of examples of how the heat impacts
1) Last year I ran a 5k at 6pm at night in 37C and was about 20 seconds slower than I was the prior saturday when it was just 25C
2) I ran home 6 miles from work with 1 litre of water and ran out in 34C heat. I think had 2 litres of water in the next 30 minutes with gatorade/nuun

May to October, nearly every run I do will be at 20C or above and twice a week, I will run at 6pm in 30C+ so I know you can get used to it, but it's really the change in temperature which is the challenge

Really useful info - many thanks.

I bought myself an ultra/race vest from Salomon last year to get me through the warmer months of marathon training. Worked incredibly well, though it did occasionally chafe when worn with a minimal vest underneath. This year, I'm planning to buy a selection of really cheap technical t-shirts and cut off the sleeves - should be a nice compromise between coverage to prevent chafing and temperature management.

[ukaskew]

The jiffle king said:

1) Last year I ran a 5k at 6pm at night in 37C and was about 20 seconds slower than I was the prior saturday when it was just 25C

Jeez, my 22k on Saturday was 18c and to be honest that felt like my limit! It can be -10c and I'll be in shorts and t-shirt running, I just get so so hot and I've found no way to combat it (including lots of fluid). I was genuinely considering easing off races during the summer as I simply can't cope.

They've not found a link but I've been like this since a heart virus a few years back than nearly finished me off. 100% recovered after 2 years but left feeling warm all the time. I wear a short sleeved shirt in the office year-round, the girl opposite me has a cardigan and coat on through most of the winter...

[dave0010]

Now my training is getting more serious I'm looking at buying a GPS watch. I remember I used to have a Garmin 220 possible a few years ago. The problem I found with that was it took ages to get GPS lock at the start. Now its been a few years later and Garmin are pumping out new models I'm hoping to get something maybe a year or so old. Can anyone give me any recommendations? I've seen the Fenix 3 for around $250 here but wondered if I even need to go that new? Just after something I can wear as a normal watch and easily upload my runs to Strava

[smn159]

dave0010 said:

Now my training is getting more serious I'm looking at buying a GPS watch. I remember I used to have a Garmin 220 possible a few years ago. The problem I found with that was it took ages to get GPS lock at the start. Now its been a few years later and Garmin are pumping out new models I'm hoping to get something maybe a year or so old. Can anyone give me any recommendations? I've seen the Fenix 3 for around $250 here but wondered if I even need to go that new? Just after something I can wear as a normal watch and easily upload my runs to Strava

What do you want it to do?

Very pleased with my Forerunner 235 which has heart rate, but TBH if you don't want / need that then a Forerunner 10 will do what you need for c£80 new.

[Cybertronian]

dave0010 said:

Now my training is getting more serious I'm looking at buying a GPS watch. I remember I used to have a Garmin 220 possible a few years ago. The problem I found with that was it took ages to get GPS lock at the start. Now its been a few years later and Garmin are pumping out new models I'm hoping to get something maybe a year or so old. Can anyone give me any recommendations? I've seen the Fenix 3 for around $250 here but wondered if I even need to go that new? Just after something I can wear as a normal watch and easily upload my runs to Strava

Unless you actually have a defective 220, the newer generation of Garmins (220 onwards, 620 onwards etc) all pre-cache GPS satellite locations for the coming week. In other words, the Garmin begins looking in the correct place for the satellites and usually initiates a lock within a minute or less.

The caveat to this is if you go longer than a week between syncing your Garmin, either through the USB cable, through wifi, or bluetooth. Without this regular sync, the watch has to search all over to try and workout where it is and where the satellites are, which can often take several minutes or more.

Worth plugging your 220 in and updating it, just to see if it resolves the issue, unless you're particularly keen on a new Garmin.

[Smitters]

The jiffle king said:

Running in the heat... I'm not an expert, but having lived in Barcelona for 3 1/2 years and now in Georgia US for 2 years, I've had some practice and I find that it's not the heat that hurts it's the difference in temperature, so here are a couple of things I have used.
- If you think it might be hot, get used to hydrating in the 3 days before a race. Sure you will need the toilet more, but it will help
- Wear suncream.... sound obvious, but even for a 5k, it helps
- rehydrate during the run, even 5k races here in the US have water stations
- expect to be slower as your body is having to generate lots of sweat to cool you down
- keep cool before the race, find shade and don't stand around in the sun
- hydrate as soon as you finish... think 500ml minimum for every 20 minutes you ran and ideally 1 litre which sounds like too much, but you would be amazed how much you leak

Couple of examples of how the heat impacts
1) Last year I ran a 5k at 6pm at night in 37C and was about 20 seconds slower than I was the prior saturday when it was just 25C
2) I ran home 6 miles from work with 1 litre of water and ran out in 34C heat. I think had 2 litres of water in the next 30 minutes with gatorade/nuun

May to October, nearly every run I do will be at 20C or above and twice a week, I will run at 6pm in 30C+ so I know you can get used to it, but it's really the change in temperature which is the challenge

This is all really good advice, but it also pays to be aware of hyponatremia, which is very low blood sodium (salt) levels. This can be brought on by drinking a lot of fluid, normally in a long race with high availablility (e.g. London Mara every mile). The danger is that the symptoms can be easily confused and sufferers given more fluids. So drink, but don't try and drown yourself inside out. The OPs example of using electrolytes post-exercise is very wise - we don't just sweat out water!

[The jiffle king]

Smitters said:

This is all really good advice, but it also pays to be aware of hyponatremia, which is very low blood sodium (salt) levels. This can be brought on by drinking a lot of fluid, normally in a long race with high availablility (e.g. London Mara every mile). The danger is that the symptoms can be easily confused and sufferers given more fluids. So drink, but don't try and drown yourself inside out. The OPs example of using electrolytes post-exercise is very wise - we don't just sweat out water!

Totally right and I forgot to mention that. In very hot climates, it's the electrolytes which make the difference

[Smitters]

The jiffle king said:

Totally right and I forgot to mention that. In very hot climates, it's the electrolytes which make the difference

I was listening to one of Ian Corless' podcasts and they were discussing the links between identified cases of hyponatremia and the big push to drink drink drink in marathons, and if it was linked to marketing. It also got quite scientific, regards the osmosis through linings of this and that and how when suffering, if you're not careful, you can make it worse, not better, plus how the symptoms can be misinterpreted as, for example, heat-stroke and dehydration, which obviously making things much worse. It struck a chord as I've historically been a big drinker in events (hic!) and had a few incidents when I've felt pretty sick in my stomach. In retrospect, it could well have been salt-imbalance and in every case I made it worse, not better by not realizing this.

I totally subscribe to your prep in the preceding days. I've found my long runs to me noticeably easier on quite low volumes of fluid - 750ml for 18 miles/three hours this weekend in 20 degrees C - because I planned for it and was consciously hydrating 24 hours beforehand.