The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
tenohfive said:
I'm looking forward to this years UTMB (purely as an online spectator, not a participant.) With Kilian, Francois D'haene, Walmsley, Luis Alberto Hernando, Xavier Thevenard et al all taking part there's going to be a lot of talent there and a mix of different approaches to the race. Personally I think it'll be one of the Salomon guys that'll do it, with Kilian the obvious favourite - but Francois has had a strong season too. And if Walmsley does his 'death or glory' routine it should make things interesting.
Anyone else going to be following it?
Absolutely. I wish I could go and spectate. Walmsleys training is very impressive and after western states, I think theres a chance he will employ some pacing.Anyone else going to be following it?
Perhaps there is an OCR thread somewhere, but as a runner who just dabbled, I'll stay here. Just done Tough Mudder for the first time. In the lead up I was pretty skeptical - it all felt like a money making machine, but having done it, it was a hell of an event. The biggest upside was I ran 10 miles for the first time since May without pain. I may be turning an injury corner just in time to get into winter base-build again. Weirdly looking forward to slogging out some lsd miles again!
Also looking forward to the UTMB. I follow Sage Canaday on YouTube and I'll be interested to see how he goes. I like the guy and he's got talent, but I can't help think he may be out of his depth. We'll see.
Also looking forward to the UTMB. I follow Sage Canaday on YouTube and I'll be interested to see how he goes. I like the guy and he's got talent, but I can't help think he may be out of his depth. We'll see.
Yeah looking forward to UTMB. I run/race trails/hills/mountains a lot and it's unbelievable the pace these guys go at.
I think Killian may win but there are others who specialise in UTMB and are always pushing the top 5. Walmsley just needs to have a sensible head on him and i think he can do it...Sage maybe top 5, he's hit & miss nowadays!
I'm looking forward to racing Glencoe Skyline in September with Killian though, should be a top weekend.
I think Killian may win but there are others who specialise in UTMB and are always pushing the top 5. Walmsley just needs to have a sensible head on him and i think he can do it...Sage maybe top 5, he's hit & miss nowadays!
I'm looking forward to racing Glencoe Skyline in September with Killian though, should be a top weekend.
Yup will be watching UTMB, went last year and it's a great atmosphere.
Good luck for ^ GCS, hope the weather stays good, it's a stunning location. I said to Shane last year that it's like a mini-Chamonix & he should add a race or two (PTL/Ultra) and he just said watch this space and voila - the Ultra race as well this year which looks tremendous.
VK, 'Extreme' Skyrace, Ultra & the RoS 'taster' event for mortals like me - a great weekend!
Good luck for ^ GCS, hope the weather stays good, it's a stunning location. I said to Shane last year that it's like a mini-Chamonix & he should add a race or two (PTL/Ultra) and he just said watch this space and voila - the Ultra race as well this year which looks tremendous.
VK, 'Extreme' Skyrace, Ultra & the RoS 'taster' event for mortals like me - a great weekend!
AndStilliRise said:
45min/10k yesterday. I was doing 42min in spring training and I am currently 61kg. I have been focusing on my cycling for the last 3mths but did not stop running so really not sure about the lack of pace!
I've pondered this since you last wrote similar and there could be a number of causes and without knowing you, your running or lifestyle its difficult to say- You might be running the training runs too hard e.g. a good % of your running should be slower than race pace
- How much did you taper? For a target 10k, a 1 week taper should be fine, but it will involve doing much less in the prior 7 days
- Are you getting much rest in prior to the races?
- You might be too focused on times when you run. I have a friend that checks his watch every mile no matter what and puts pressure on himself to stick to some paces.
- Have you tried running without a watch and running on feel? Back in 2010, I ran for 6 months without a watch building up to 40 miles a week. I knew what time I left the house but if stopped for roads I had no idea of my pace. It was the consistency of training which helped me get quicker and when I put the watch back on, I tried to only look at the end of the run. It helped me get used to running on feel
Not sure I can help too much, but wanted to ramble a bit and see if anything might work for you
Running without a watch for more speed never works for me , i just run as comfy as possible which works well for ultras but less so for 10k and halfs.
Park runs i seem to manage in 20 mins by running fast enough to get a stich then clinging on for the next 2 miles but wouldn't do it for anything longer.
Park runs i seem to manage in 20 mins by running fast enough to get a stich then clinging on for the next 2 miles but wouldn't do it for anything longer.
The jiffle king said:
AndStilliRise said:
45min/10k yesterday. I was doing 42min in spring training and I am currently 61kg. I have been focusing on my cycling for the last 3mths but did not stop running so really not sure about the lack of pace!
I've pondered this since you last wrote similar and there could be a number of causes and without knowing you, your running or lifestyle its difficult to say- You might be running the training runs too hard e.g. a good % of your running should be slower than race pace
- How much did you taper? For a target 10k, a 1 week taper should be fine, but it will involve doing much less in the prior 7 days
- Are you getting much rest in prior to the races?
- You might be too focused on times when you run. I have a friend that checks his watch every mile no matter what and puts pressure on himself to stick to some paces.
- Have you tried running without a watch and running on feel? Back in 2010, I ran for 6 months without a watch building up to 40 miles a week. I knew what time I left the house but if stopped for roads I had no idea of my pace. It was the consistency of training which helped me get quicker and when I put the watch back on, I tried to only look at the end of the run. It helped me get used to running on feel
Not sure I can help too much, but wanted to ramble a bit and see if anything might work for you
I am a little worried about my MAXHR (172). The race yesterday I ran HR@162 which is 94%. However i just seem so slow even at my max. It is not as if i have been sitting on the sofa, I have been training at least twice a day so not sure how or why i have deteriorated. The only other change is that i hit 40 this year!
Perhaps it is the food, i have reduced the calorie intake, i usually only eat one main meal a day now plus breakfast.
Who knows!
Mothersruin said:
How have you come to that MaxHR?
The calculators say mine should be 172 (220-48) but I push that every so often and know there's still headroom - on rare occasions I'll get close to 180 but I do start to feel I'm running out of gas by then.
I'm comfy around 160-162.
It never seems to get higher than that. At 160+ I am stretched but can hold it for a while. The weird thing is that last year i managed to run 8*3:30 marathons, 2 of which were during Ramadan, 8mm was my easy pace. This year i have improved my cycling but really, really struggled with my running. Yet it is the running i have been training. Motivation is there, effort is there but do not seem to be improving on pace or stamina/endurance.The calculators say mine should be 172 (220-48) but I push that every so often and know there's still headroom - on rare occasions I'll get close to 180 but I do start to feel I'm running out of gas by then.
I'm comfy around 160-162.
AndStilliRise said:
Mothersruin said:
How have you come to that MaxHR?
The calculators say mine should be 172 (220-48) but I push that every so often and know there's still headroom - on rare occasions I'll get close to 180 but I do start to feel I'm running out of gas by then.
I'm comfy around 160-162.
It never seems to get higher than that. At 160+ I am stretched but can hold it for a while. The weird thing is that last year i managed to run 8*3:30 marathons, 2 of which were during Ramadan, 8mm was my easy pace. This year i have improved my cycling but really, really struggled with my running. Yet it is the running i have been training. Motivation is there, effort is there but do not seem to be improving on pace or stamina/endurance.The calculators say mine should be 172 (220-48) but I push that every so often and know there's still headroom - on rare occasions I'll get close to 180 but I do start to feel I'm running out of gas by then.
I'm comfy around 160-162.
AndStilliRise said:
It never seems to get higher than that. At 160+ I am stretched but can hold it for a while. The weird thing is that last year i managed to run 8*3:30 marathons, 2 of which were during Ramadan, 8mm was my easy pace. This year i have improved my cycling but really, really struggled with my running. Yet it is the running i have been training. Motivation is there, effort is there but do not seem to be improving on pace or stamina/endurance.
Likewise. 160 was my last marathon HR actually.andy_s said:
AndStilliRise said:
I have been training at least twice a day so not sure how or why i have deteriorated.
The answer could be in the question - are you letting yourself recover OK do you think?One thing at a time - either be losing weight and maintaining your abilities in training. You could even allow some slippage in pace, acknowledging that it's one step back, two steps forward sometimes. The work on training to increase abilities and fueling yourself for this, both for the effort and for recovery. I cannot see how you can restrict calories, train twice a day and recover in any way. The reasons pros can get away with it is because they train, eat and sleep. Nothing else. Chris Froome doesn't have to stick 8 hours in at the office as well.
I feel like I may be repeating myself here to, so apologies if that's the case.
ETA - I am. I would go back and read my post from Friday 13th Jan on the Q1 PHAT Fighters thread. I stand by what I said there. I think you're making bad decisions on nutrition at the cost of performance, based on an unrealistic and unsustainable approach. I also stand by what I said about 18 weeks on a 3.00-3.15 marathon plan with clean eating to refuel.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
If nothing else, when you get to the end of 2017, look back at what you did and if you achieved your goals. If you did, great. If you didn't, learn from it and do things differently.
Edited by Smitters on Monday 21st August 15:24
AndStilliRise said:
The jiffle king said:
AndStilliRise said:
45min/10k yesterday. I was doing 42min in spring training and I am currently 61kg. I have been focusing on my cycling for the last 3mths but did not stop running so really not sure about the lack of pace!
I've pondered this since you last wrote similar and there could be a number of causes and without knowing you, your running or lifestyle its difficult to say- You might be running the training runs too hard e.g. a good % of your running should be slower than race pace
- How much did you taper? For a target 10k, a 1 week taper should be fine, but it will involve doing much less in the prior 7 days
- Are you getting much rest in prior to the races?
- You might be too focused on times when you run. I have a friend that checks his watch every mile no matter what and puts pressure on himself to stick to some paces.
- Have you tried running without a watch and running on feel? Back in 2010, I ran for 6 months without a watch building up to 40 miles a week. I knew what time I left the house but if stopped for roads I had no idea of my pace. It was the consistency of training which helped me get quicker and when I put the watch back on, I tried to only look at the end of the run. It helped me get used to running on feel
Not sure I can help too much, but wanted to ramble a bit and see if anything might work for you
I am a little worried about my MAXHR (172). The race yesterday I ran HR@162 which is 94%. However i just seem so slow even at my max. It is not as if i have been sitting on the sofa, I have been training at least twice a day so not sure how or why i have deteriorated. The only other change is that i hit 40 this year!
Perhaps it is the food, i have reduced the calorie intake, i usually only eat one main meal a day now plus breakfast.
Who knows!
if not it's pointless using your max heart rate as a reference point.
I find talking a really good guide to effort your putting in .
On club night in my normal group i'll be middle to back of pack and getting most a sentence out but missing out a few words here and there , if i push to keep on the heels of the front guys i'll not get many words out and at park run i'll pretty much not get a word out.
If i run on my own or drop down a group or lead a slower group then i'll have no problem having a total conversation as well as looping to the back then going up thru the field again.
Most people i know ( including somebody who's in Canada competing for the country at the duathlon world champs ) no longer heart rate train because they can't deal with how slow they have to go to keep there heart rate in zone.
Run with a club , get some base line figures for 10k 10 mile runs and then you know what average speed is you pushing it compared to cruising .
Also try running more off road , nothing is ever flat so when you get back to doing a road run you'll be put your normal effort in but the terrain is now flatter so you'll go faster .
Also your cadence will of probably increased to by running off road.
Edited by egor110 on Monday 21st August 15:38
Smitters said:
Also looking forward to the UTMB. I follow Sage Canaday on YouTube and I'll be interested to see how he goes. I like the guy and he's got talent, but I can't help think he may be out of his depth. We'll see.
Sage does come across well and he's a consistent performer, he's has some solid results. I'm inclined to agree that he's out of his depth but I like that he's putting himself there, there's a tendency for a lot of US runners to stay within their comfort zone but he seems game to give other races a go - and he still performs. One to watch in the next couple of years without a doubt.AbzST64 said:
Yeah looking forward to UTMB. I run/race trails/hills/mountains a lot and it's unbelievable the pace these guys go at.
I think Killian may win but there are others who specialise in UTMB and are always pushing the top 5. Walmsley just needs to have a sensible head on him and i think he can do it...Sage maybe top 5, he's hit & miss nowadays!
I'm looking forward to racing Glencoe Skyline in September with Killian though, should be a top weekend.
Walmsley is the wild card because his speed is incredible, but his judgement is questionable and I think he's still a bit of an unknown quantity at the 100 mile distance.I think Killian may win but there are others who specialise in UTMB and are always pushing the top 5. Walmsley just needs to have a sensible head on him and i think he can do it...Sage maybe top 5, he's hit & miss nowadays!
I'm looking forward to racing Glencoe Skyline in September with Killian though, should be a top weekend.
If I were a betting man my money would be on Kilian or Francois - I'm just not sure if there will be any team cycling style, set the leader (Kilian) up for the win amongst the Salomon boys or not. Having watched Francois' GR20 FKT video I kind of want him to win; he comes across as a proper family man but who can win time and time again on big courses.
The whole Skyline Scotland series looks good this year, good luck with GCS. I'll be up that way too (not doing the GCS though, maybe next year) and it's great that there's a decent showcase of UK races.
Side note - heard on James Elson (Centurion Running's RD) podcast that the LL100 winner for the last two years Mike Jones is setting up a Snowdonian pair of races - pick 50 or 100 miles with either 6000 or 11000 metres (not feet) of vert. I just can't think of anything in the UK with even close to that amount of climb.
http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
tenohfive said:
Side note - heard on James Elson (Centurion Running's RD) podcast that the LL100 winner for the last two years Mike Jones is setting up a Snowdonian pair of races - pick 50 or 100 miles with either 6000 or 11000 metres (not feet) of vert. I just can't think of anything in the UK with even close to that amount of climb.
http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
A Bob Graham Round is around 66 miles and climbing 26,000 feet (7900metres or so) ... is that a similar profile?http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
AndStilliRise said:
Just been told that i am pushing a too hard. Training runs need to be easier. This is what i don't understand, I would have thought that i need to deliver the paces in training to deliver them in the race? I am not sure how to expect a faster race if i can not do it in training?!
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/training-in-the-grey-zone-how-to-avoid-the-zone-3-plateau/Might be worth a read.
ETA:
Something that article doesn't mention is things like metabolism. Running aerobically in zone 2 your body is using fat as a primary fuel source, in Zone 4 it's using carbs. Training either of those will teach your body to burn those fuel sources more effeciently. Zone 3 - where it sounds like you spend a lot of time - uses a mix, and as a consequence you don't gain as much efficiency in either regard.
Personally as a rough guide I like the 80/20 guide (Jack Daniels?) - 80% of your weekly mileage easy, 20% hard. And another little sound bite I've picked up also rings true - run your hard runs hard and your easy runs easy.
For me, that means long runs are kept at low intensity but effort sessions (intervals/hill reps) are treated as a sufferfest.
I'm no expert mind, I've just tried to do my homework as I don't get as many miles in as many runners do - so I try to make my runs count. But that doesn't necessarily mean running hard everywhere.
Edited by tenohfive on Monday 21st August 17:51
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