The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
Onedsla- its great to read about the effort which goes into to run those times. I also don't see age as the barrier I used to perceive and am getting better into my 40's rather than slower
Credit to all who braved the snow this morning. I am supporting a mate who is marathon training so 18miles in the snow today. Did it and now bacon sandwiches for lunch
Credit to all who braved the snow this morning. I am supporting a mate who is marathon training so 18miles in the snow today. Did it and now bacon sandwiches for lunch
tenohfive said:
lufbramatt said:
Good points.
From my experience as a middle distance runner I would find it very hard putting in lots and lots of hours/miles per week getting the endurance work in for long distance events. So for me I agree it would be harder. But I used to relish a hard track session, say 10x 200m reps @ 800m race pace with 1 min recoveries. They hurt. But I used to run in a closely matched group and the friendly competition made it great fun. it would be interesting to see how an ultra distance runner would get on running fast reps on the track.
Some of the top US ultrarunners (Walmsley, Freriks etc) come from a track background so there are plenty that make the jump. Although there's no typical ultrarunner - there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how important speed work is in ultras, with even mates (and top UK ultrarunners) like James Elson and Dan Lawson taking different approaches to the subject.From my experience as a middle distance runner I would find it very hard putting in lots and lots of hours/miles per week getting the endurance work in for long distance events. So for me I agree it would be harder. But I used to relish a hard track session, say 10x 200m reps @ 800m race pace with 1 min recoveries. They hurt. But I used to run in a closely matched group and the friendly competition made it great fun. it would be interesting to see how an ultra distance runner would get on running fast reps on the track.
But how someone would perform - and how much they would hurt (i.e. how hard it would be) in a track session are of course two different things. There's no doubt that a volume orientated runner wouldn't be as quick, but then that's comparing apples with oranges - if they were as quick, it would suggest that targeted training does little and that performance is purely based on how strong your engine is.
Since we're touching on performance, during a very dry podcast in which a Swiss performance scientist was interviewed he stated that based on their studies - purely of performance data - the 3 key performance indicators of top performing ultramarathons were marathon PB, speed in training and body fat percentage. Marathoners I've seen jump to ultras seem to have few fitness issues, just occasionally technical ones. It's made me seriously consider doing a marathon training plan in order to improve my own performance at ultras.
egor110 said:
So reduce how long the long runs are and replace with shorter faster sessions ?
Not quite how I read it, though it's very vague advice in any case.Fast marathon - probably achieved by specific training around aerobic threshold (~marathon pace) to promote fat metabolism at a 'fast' pace, supplementary slower miles for recovery and to further promote fat metabolism and long runs to 'empty the bucket' to evoke a stimulus to carry more energy.
Speed in training - not rocket science. A 2:20 marathoner may run 'easy' at 6:20 pace. A 3:00 marathoner is not capable of doing that.
Body fat % - assume (to a sensible point) that lower is better. You don't see many plump runners at the front of any race distance.
I've had a couple of mates move up to 50 or 100km for an 'easy' country vest. One ran a 2:50 50km from normal marathon training, then jumped into a 12 hour track race to clock a 100km qualifying time for the IAU World Champs - can't recall the exact time but it was in the region of 7 hours. Both these guys are endurance animals, training for marathons the 120mpw+++ route, which seems to serve them well for longer distances.
19 for me in the cold / wind / snow / ice / rain / sleet to close off 85 miles for the week - highest (I think) since 2010. Keeping most of the running easy to save mental energy for the hard weeks in March.
Just for the record, it wasn't really advice at all - it was simply looking at facts, figures, finishing positions and drawing correlations. The scientist concerned didn't get drawn into that - he just said (to all intents and purposes) - "these are the factors the top performers have in common."
I'm in for my 3rd marathon at Manchester, aim is sub 3:30
My first in 2016 was 3:37... last year a horrible 4:31 (walked 9 miles due to injury), training pretty consistent at 35-40 miles a week, 2 club sessions during the week and pleasing just done a 1:31:53 half, so confidence up at 3:30 should be do able.
For the first I ran my longer runs at marathon pace 2x20 mile max, for the second I ran more longer runs but slower longest was 22.5 I'm leaning towards running the longer runs back at target pace as that seemed to work better.
My first in 2016 was 3:37... last year a horrible 4:31 (walked 9 miles due to injury), training pretty consistent at 35-40 miles a week, 2 club sessions during the week and pleasing just done a 1:31:53 half, so confidence up at 3:30 should be do able.
For the first I ran my longer runs at marathon pace 2x20 mile max, for the second I ran more longer runs but slower longest was 22.5 I'm leaning towards running the longer runs back at target pace as that seemed to work better.
northandy said:
I'm in for my 3rd marathon at Manchester, aim is sub 3:30
My first in 2016 was 3:37... last year a horrible 4:31 (walked 9 miles due to injury), training pretty consistent at 35-40 miles a week, 2 club sessions during the week and pleasing just done a 1:31:53 half, so confidence up at 3:30 should be do able.
For the first I ran my longer runs at marathon pace 2x20 mile max, for the second I ran more longer runs but slower longest was 22.5 I'm leaning towards running the longer runs back at target pace as that seemed to work better.
I have never done full training long runs at MP and I am around the same times. I think it would only be necessary for advanced level but everyone is different but it could take too much out of you for the following weeks sessions.My first in 2016 was 3:37... last year a horrible 4:31 (walked 9 miles due to injury), training pretty consistent at 35-40 miles a week, 2 club sessions during the week and pleasing just done a 1:31:53 half, so confidence up at 3:30 should be do able.
For the first I ran my longer runs at marathon pace 2x20 mile max, for the second I ran more longer runs but slower longest was 22.5 I'm leaning towards running the longer runs back at target pace as that seemed to work better.
johnwilliams77 said:
egor110 said:
wow that's a lot of mileage i only go up to a weekly total of 60 miles for a 50 mile ultra !
It’s provably on the low side for a sub 2:30 runner Most 2:20 runners will be doing around 100 miles a week or more
John - indeed. Here is my training for my last marathon, which went a little over 100mpw at peak. The main difference back then is that I doubled up most days. Due to time constraints these days, I tend to do about 80% of the total but in a single run, which is probably 95% as effective (and more endurance focused which may help in that final 7km).
As a comparison, I've added my last week's training at the bottom.
S: 14:59.84 for 5000m
S: 16.1 miles - beginning of marathon training
M: 10 with 1.5M tempo and 5.4 easy
T: 7 easy and 8.8 track (2km 6:54, 2km 6:12, 1km 3:04, 800 2:24, 3 x 400 70, 68, 71) Felt tired!
W: 5.75 and 7.5
T: 10.1 with some 'easy tempo' offroad 5:53 (153), 5:48 (161), 5:49 (165), 5:45 (167), 5:49 (169), 5:49 (171), 5:45 (173)
F: 9.9 and 4.2
S: 10.25
S: 22.2 slow (big step up in distance, but never felt too tired - picked up a little towards the end (6:30s) to show willing)
M: 7.4 and 3.8
T: 10.5 with middle 10km in 34:37 (165bpm average)
W: 5.35
T: 4 and 9.6 with middle 5M in 27:24 (progression run)
F: 5.7
S: 4
S: 17.5 including Chippenham HM - disaster - sick at 4M and again at around 9M. Made it home but reduced to easy pace by the end - 76:28. Ouch. Not good.
M: 7.7 recovery
T: 17.2 with track session towards the end (was going well for 400s but 1200s slow and hard)
W: 6.4 / 4.3 General recovery day.
T: 9.4 with 30mins @ 5:56 pace (163bpm) avoiding tourists around Green Park (so all slight inclines, on and off road, nothing flat)
F: 10.1 with 5 @ 5:50 pace (163bpm) offroad, mostly flat around Wimbledon Common
S: 9 with '5M' Club champs XC. Turned out 4.8M. First 4.5 felt like jogging, then increased effort to pull away and win by a good 10s (achieved in last 300m). Steep in parts and pretty overgrown - logs to jump over, brambles, nettles, a water jump etc. Averaged 5:50 pace (169bpm). Have my name on the same board as some genuine running legends!
S: 22.3 with fartlek - 4 busts between 1 and 1.5M in 5:20 - 6:00 pace range
M: 7.5 and 6.3
T: 10.2 inc 8.2 averaging 5:52 pace offroad (161bpm) and 3.7
W: 7.2 (7:28) and 4.4 (7:22)
T: 4.2 (7:27) and 9.2 including 7M tempo (5:32, 5:33, 5:33, 5:34, 5:33, 5:28, 5:15) 168bpm
F: 6 (7:24) and 4 (7:51)
S: 6 (7:18)
S: Southern 6 stage: 2.4 warm up, 6km leg in 19:25 (5:09) 6 down. A little tired and caught myself napping in 2nd lap - really should have been 30s faster.
M: 7.8 (6:35 - alternating 1M normal and 1M easy tempo) and 4.1 (7:45)
T: 13.04 with 10M easy tempo offroad - 5:49, 5:41, 5:49, 5:47, 5:51, 5:50, 5:57, 5:44, 5:55, 5:57. Grass section was very wet which didn't help - hard towards the end with HR ending up 170+ (though avg more like mid 160s) and 4 (8:05)
W: 6.5 (7:11) - tired
T: 7.1 (6:57) and 9.8 including 30mins tempo (5:36, 5:36, 5:33, 5:34, 5:28 + last half mile at 5:18 pace. Pushing towards the end but HR in the 160s for most.
F: 7.28 (7:18)
S: 7 (7:07)
S: 21 inc 20M 'easy tempo' - 1:58:45 - won 'Spitfire 20' in pretty crap (windy, wet) conditions. Average HR 166, but backed off in last 3 miles as feeling a little tired (only 2 weeks before M-day, so keen not to push on tired legs - a lot of people tend to get this wrong and work far too hard in the 20M build up 'race')
M: 5.3 (7:16) - tired
T: 7.5 (6:29 - threw in 2 x 1M offroad efforts at marathon pace) - wanted a bit more speed but still tired.
W: 7.7 (6:57) - feeling better
T: 12.3 with 8M MP with slightly faster section in middle 5:37, 5:34, 5:39, 5:34, 5:30, 5:31, 5:33, 5:34. 169bpm. Hard, but feeling good.
F: 4.9 (7:24)
S: 6.2 (7:39) including 3 x ~50m hill sprints
S: 12.9 (6:56) - felt great
M: 6 (6:58)
T: 7.2 (6:48)
W: 5.6 with 2 ~6min reps trying and failing to run as slowly as MP (5:29 and 5:23 pace)
T: 4 (6:43)
F: 2.1 (7:31) - travel to Amsterdam. Try to register - get lucky and find our contact, but he seems a little laid back 'come back tomorrow at 5pm' so not quite sure. Eat with the Kenyans / Ethiopians - lots of competition!
S: 2 (7:20) - cold! Go to the technical briefing at 5pm. Number still not there, but I'm not alone. Get sorted out with an unassigned number - 99 - about 14 hours before the race start. Phew. Meet a couple of Dutch runners looking for similar time - and learn of 3:30/km pace maker set to go until 30km.
S: very early - 0.9M slow. Trying to wake up the body for 9:45 (8:45 UK time) race start. Have a light breakfast and coffee. Head on bus to stadium and have a room to relax in for an hour or so. 0.5M light warm up with 35mins to go. Out to the start at 9:30. A light warm up with some MP stides at the start. 26.2M race in 2:28:57.
5 Kilometer 17:34 (17:34)
10 Kilometer 34:55 (17:21)
15 Kilometer 52:23 (17:28)
20 Kilometer 1:09:54 (17:31)
Half marathon 1:13:49
25 Kilometer 1:27:32 (17:38)
30 Kilometer 1:45:12 (17:40)
35 Kilometer 2:02:46 (17:34)
40 Kilometer 2:20:46 (18:00)
Last week:
M: 9.1 miles with 5 in 29:30ish
T: 10 easy (7:08 pace)
W: 4.1 (7:12) morning. 11 miles with 10km tempo (34:58) in evening.
T: 8.5 easy (7.10)
F: 14.5 easy (7:04)
S: 10.3, intercepting parkrun with 6:15, 6:00, 5:50ish progression run. Mile with 7 year old daughter after lunch.
S: 19 (6:58)
I starting to be able to find a little more consistency with my training. Running on the road has started to cause a little pain in my ankle so I'm trying to find grass more an more often. I even completed my first ( very basic interval session ) I basically ran 1 loop of an oval as fast as I could, then a recovery loop and repeat x5. We all have to start somewhere.
Smitters said:
Newport, then a local trailie two weeks after that. My plan is:
1) don't get injured.
2) vaguely consider some running.
3) if in doubt, see point 1.
I did 20 mins today and the shin is a bit sore. I could be in for an emotional back half of the race...
Well, that went well. Walking yesterday pinged my hamstring, or so I thought. The run assessment at the physio today turned into leg assessment and the upshot is it seems to be a nerve issue, not a soft tissue problem. Pros and cons.1) don't get injured.
2) vaguely consider some running.
3) if in doubt, see point 1.
I did 20 mins today and the shin is a bit sore. I could be in for an emotional back half of the race...
johnwilliams77 said:
egor110 said:
wow that's a lot of mileage i only go up to a weekly total of 60 miles for a 50 mile ultra !
It’s provably on the low side for a sub 2:30 runner Most 2:20 runners will be doing around 100 miles a week or more
Egor, I've done 100km (with 3500m of ascent) on about 55km a week. I'm younger than some on here but no spring chicken. I think there's a lot to be said for a) being clever about your training, and b) having faith in it. What's the old saying - ultra's are 90% mental, the other 50% is physical?
I'm no uber-seasoned Karl Meltzer style ultra-vet, but I've done a few and I think staying uninjured and training consistently and cleverly are more important than chucking down more and more miles. If you can fit in the volume and stay uninjured, great, but consistency is more important. And having faith in that consistency is just as important.
tenohfive said:
100 mpw is a number often trotted out by those at the front of the field.
Egor, I've done 100km (with 3500m of ascent) on about 55km a week. I'm younger than some on here but no spring chicken. I think there's a lot to be said for a) being clever about your training, and b) having faith in it. What's the old saying - ultra's are 90% mental, the other 50% is physical?
I'm no uber-seasoned Karl Meltzer style ultra-vet, but I've done a few and I think staying uninjured and training consistently and cleverly are more important than chucking down more and more miles. If you can fit in the volume and stay uninjured, great, but consistency is more important. And having faith in that consistency is just as important.
I understand what your point is but I was responding to your comment about his mileage being high. It's not that high for the level he is at. Most club runners I know on 2:45 or lower are doing 70/80.Egor, I've done 100km (with 3500m of ascent) on about 55km a week. I'm younger than some on here but no spring chicken. I think there's a lot to be said for a) being clever about your training, and b) having faith in it. What's the old saying - ultra's are 90% mental, the other 50% is physical?
I'm no uber-seasoned Karl Meltzer style ultra-vet, but I've done a few and I think staying uninjured and training consistently and cleverly are more important than chucking down more and more miles. If you can fit in the volume and stay uninjured, great, but consistency is more important. And having faith in that consistency is just as important.
I did >55 for the first two weeks of the year but lower last week...
johnwilliams77 said:
I have never done full training long runs at MP and I am around the same times. I think it would only be necessary for advanced level but everyone is different but it could take too much out of you for the following weeks sessions.
Your possibly right, maybe I'd be better breaking the longer runs into chunks at MP then slower intervals.Had one of those days at work yesterday and was looking forward to going for a run to de stress last night.
Ended up doing just a touch over 20k and it was nice with it being a far milder night. Ended up with a 15k and 20k personal best with the 20k being done in 1:40.43 which was great as did not really feel I had run all that well.
Amazing the difference a slightly warmer evening can make.
Ended up doing just a touch over 20k and it was nice with it being a far milder night. Ended up with a 15k and 20k personal best with the 20k being done in 1:40.43 which was great as did not really feel I had run all that well.
Amazing the difference a slightly warmer evening can make.
johnwilliams77 said:
tenohfive said:
100 mpw is a number often trotted out by those at the front of the field.
Egor, I've done 100km (with 3500m of ascent) on about 55km a week. I'm younger than some on here but no spring chicken. I think there's a lot to be said for a) being clever about your training, and b) having faith in it. What's the old saying - ultra's are 90% mental, the other 50% is physical?
I'm no uber-seasoned Karl Meltzer style ultra-vet, but I've done a few and I think staying uninjured and training consistently and cleverly are more important than chucking down more and more miles. If you can fit in the volume and stay uninjured, great, but consistency is more important. And having faith in that consistency is just as important.
I understand what your point is but I was responding to your comment about his mileage being high. It's not that high for the level he is at. Most club runners I know on 2:45 or lower are doing 70/80.Egor, I've done 100km (with 3500m of ascent) on about 55km a week. I'm younger than some on here but no spring chicken. I think there's a lot to be said for a) being clever about your training, and b) having faith in it. What's the old saying - ultra's are 90% mental, the other 50% is physical?
I'm no uber-seasoned Karl Meltzer style ultra-vet, but I've done a few and I think staying uninjured and training consistently and cleverly are more important than chucking down more and more miles. If you can fit in the volume and stay uninjured, great, but consistency is more important. And having faith in that consistency is just as important.
I did >55 for the first two weeks of the year but lower last week...
I manned up & kicked off the speed sessions today, to get some speed back in the old legs
Struggling to get under 20 mins in the local hardish parktun at the moment
3 sets of 4x400m at faster than 5k pace, 30 seconds rest between each 400m
If I do that every week & stay injury free, it will show rewards in a few months
About 40 miles a week, week on week out
Struggling to get under 20 mins in the local hardish parktun at the moment
3 sets of 4x400m at faster than 5k pace, 30 seconds rest between each 400m
If I do that every week & stay injury free, it will show rewards in a few months
About 40 miles a week, week on week out
Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff