The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
tenohfive said:
egor110 said:
nobody takes mini pasties , pork pies , oreos and flat cherry coke then ?
Plenty do. I just can't manage anything that doesn't have plenty of moisture in. See my comment re Nakd bars - they're about the limit of dryness, and even then I've slowly gone off them. I've done real food, nuts, sweets, gels etc. I ran my last race (6 hours) entirely on gels and had one of my best race performances to date. N of 1 though, I'm certainly not knocking your approach.Challo said:
What are the High5 gels like? Tried the SIS gels before and while ok found they used to make me gag a little bit. Moved onto Cliff Energy Blocks which are great, but between £2.00 - 2.50 per packet they are a bit pricey for training runs. Might just get some jelly babies and use those instead.
I like them. SiS give me GI issues. Gu taste really good but are quite thick. High5 and Powergels both seem to balance moisture and pack size - you can just neck them. They're also quite cheap.I also quite like the Powegel Shots - they remind me of pick'n'mix sweets, and when my teeth hurt from hours of sugar they aren't too chewy. Not dissimilar to Clif Blocks but not as expensive.
But I don't get why anyone would use them for training (other than to test them out, and check they agree with you) - the reason they're expensive is that they compress a lot of calories into a small, light, packable (generally) easily digestible package. If you really need to eat during training (and I suspect some could surprise themselves anyway on that front) why not just go with the cheapest calories - bananas are pennies for a start, but there are plenty of other options. You don't need all the other things that make gels/blocks/powders so expensive unless you're racing.
travel is dangerous said:
I just try and make sure my long run route goes past a mcdonalds. A large chocolate milkshake around mile 10 does the trick.
There are icecream vans and park cafe's selling ice-cream which are hard to resist in summer, cancelling out most of calories burnt on run. Edited by hyphen on Tuesday 27th February 09:16
Challo said:
Thanks for the info. Im stepping up the mileage from regular half marathon runner to full marathons and like to have something with me for my long runs incase I need more energy. On the shorter runs I just take some water, but defo want to take some energy sources on the long ones, and also like you say to try different things ready for race day.
Order up a selection from somewhere that sells individual gels eg Xmiles.I can tolerate SiS but I don't particularly like the flavours (too medicinal for me) so I wouldn't buy them. High5 are middle of the road and often given away at events. My favourite gels are Torq as the flavours are spot on. Mule Bar Kicks are nice but quite intense flavour wise and need a good glug of water with them.
My last marathon (training & race) was fuelled by gels, Tangfastics and Jaffa Cakes (last two are cheap in Home Bargains).
tenohfive said:
But I don't get why anyone would use them for training (other than to test them out, and check they agree with you) - the reason they're expensive is that they compress a lot of calories into a small, light, packable (generally) easily digestible package. If you really need to eat during training (and I suspect some could surprise themselves anyway on that front) why not just go with the cheapest calories - bananas are pennies for a start, but there are plenty of other options. You don't need all the other things that make gels/blocks/powders so expensive unless you're racing.
An extension of this argument is that if you don't need them in training, you don't really need them in a race either. Portion packs of honey and peanut butter, bananas as you say, pepperami, jelly babies and jelly beans would all work. I tend to do two things, first is I buy in bulk to keep the cost down once I know something works for me, or hunt for freebie offers if trying new stuff and then I tend to target the caffeinated stuff as my get out of jail nutrition, because, as you say, everything else can be had in other ways for 10% of the cost. Say for a 12 hour race, I'd expect to eat something every 30 mins, so I might leave one third to aid stations, meaning I have to have 16 "portions" about my person. That may well be four gels, a bag of jelly babies (about 6 handfuls), three pepperami sticks and some liquid calories in tabs or powder.
£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines? Get real! Can you imagine that over just a marathon? That'd be £30, probably more than the entry fee for a four hour marathon runner, never mind the half-kilo of gel stashed about your person. For a 50 miler, you'd never get up the first hill due to weight alone!
All this aside, I'm going to experiment with mini stroopwaffles. They pack an alarming amount of calories/100g. It's like eating a stick of butter, but sweet. They could be the new jellybeans for me.
Smitters said:
£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines? Get real! Can you imagine that over just a marathon? That'd be £30, probably more than the entry fee for a four hour marathon runner, never mind the half-kilo of gel stashed about your person. For a 50 miler, you'd never get up the first hill due to weight alone!
Who's paying £2.50 for a gel? 
bigandclever said:
Smitters said:
£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines? Get real! Can you imagine that over just a marathon? That'd be £30, probably more than the entry fee for a four hour marathon runner, never mind the half-kilo of gel stashed about your person. For a 50 miler, you'd never get up the first hill due to weight alone!
Who's paying £2.50 for a gel? Many Hammer products are over that per single serving. http://www.hammernutrition.co.uk/
Maxim gels are pricey, though granted they tend to be more than one "serving" per packet and have a resealing lid, so arguably are worth more.
But thanks for you helpful tone.
However, that's my point. You can, and it's outrageous. Or you can pay about 70p a gel by buying in bulk.
Smitters said:
An extension of this argument is that if you don't need them in training, you don't really need them in a race either.
I'm not sure I'd fully agree with that - my race intensity is higher than my (long run) training intensity. I understand that a lot of marathoners will do longer tempo runs, but I don't personally - and if I'm staying in Zone 2 I just don't need fuel.Racing, I run harder - I've just double checked and for my last ultra, over 6 hours my average HR was a couple of bpm below LTHR. Roughly 20bpm more than I'll average on LSR's in training.
Even with adaptations to muscle glycogen storage and fat burning, there's no way I'd have kept that going without any fuel. If you're interested, I tried something based on an online calculator (paid for, factoring in my bodyweight, intensity of run, distance etc) and it recommended a gel (100kcal) every 35 minutes. I did that, treated jelly beans at aid stations as a bonus and ran my race (technically) very well. Fueling was spot on for me, but we're all different.
But for shorter races, you may be right.
Smitters said:
so I might leave one third to aid stations, meaning I have to have 16 "portions" about my person. That may well be four gels, a bag of jelly babies (about 6 handfuls), three pepperami sticks and some liquid calories in tabs or powder.
£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines? Get real! Can you imagine that over just a marathon? That'd be £30, probably more than the entry fee for a four hour marathon runner, never mind the half-kilo of gel stashed about your person. For a 50 miler, you'd never get up the first hill due to weight alone!
I've never brought myself to rely on aid stations as the fare can be pretty hit and miss. I always try to grab something, but for me it's a bonus/treat, something a little different. V3K however I loaded my vest up with goodies after an aid station because I was genuinely enjoying eating, so I'd make an exception returning there.£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines? Get real! Can you imagine that over just a marathon? That'd be £30, probably more than the entry fee for a four hour marathon runner, never mind the half-kilo of gel stashed about your person. For a 50 miler, you'd never get up the first hill due to weight alone!
You're right about the costs. Even buying in bulk it can be eye watering. But some people do just find gels work for them (mostly) - the best example I can think of is James Elson. He's at the top of his game and acknowledges that he's a bit weird in finding gels work for him as his main fuel. Works for me too, which is strange - anecdotally most runners move towards real food the further they go, or the longer they're involved.
Smitters said:
All this aside, I'm going to experiment with mini stroopwaffles. They pack an alarming amount of calories/100g. It's like eating a stick of butter, but sweet. They could be the new jellybeans for me.
I like (normal) stroopwaffles and I've seen the Gu ones are popular; I might pick a couple up to try them out. I'd be surprised if they're moist enough to rely upon them as a primary source (for me) but for an occasional bit of variety I can see the appeal.ukaskew said:
Has anyone run in Hong Kong? Got 5 days alone there in late November and have read a bit about the superb trails. I figured as I can comfortably run 10-15 mile hilly trails loaded with camera and kit it might be a nice/cheap way of seeing quite a bit in a short space of time. Maybe an easy going 10 mile run on day 2 and 5 to see the out of town stuff.
I'm there for a week in early April and fancy tackling the Dragon Back Trail. Have a few friends and family members that have mountain biked and hiked it, but none that have run it.bigandclever said:
Not convinced your links back up "£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines".
OK. Thanks for your opinion.tenohfive said:
Smitters said:
An extension of this argument is that if you don't need them in training, you don't really need them in a race either.
I'm not sure I'd fully agree with that - my race intensity is higher than my (long run) training intensity. I understand that a lot of marathoners will do longer tempo runs, but I don't personally - and if I'm staying in Zone 2 I just don't need fuel.Racing, I run harder - I've just double checked and for my last ultra, over 6 hours my average HR was a couple of bpm below LTHR. Roughly 20bpm more than I'll average on LSR's in training.
Even with adaptations to muscle glycogen storage and fat burning, there's no way I'd have kept that going without any fuel. If you're interested, I tried something based on an online calculator (paid for, factoring in my bodyweight, intensity of run, distance etc) and it recommended a gel (100kcal) every 35 minutes. I did that, treated jelly beans at aid stations as a bonus and ran my race (technically) very well. Fueling was spot on for me, but we're all different.
But for shorter races, you may be right.
tenohfive said:
Smitters said:
so I might leave one third to aid stations, meaning I have to have 16 "portions" about my person. That may well be four gels, a bag of jelly babies (about 6 handfuls), three pepperami sticks and some liquid calories in tabs or powder.
£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines? Get real! Can you imagine that over just a marathon? That'd be £30, probably more than the entry fee for a four hour marathon runner, never mind the half-kilo of gel stashed about your person. For a 50 miler, you'd never get up the first hill due to weight alone!
I've never brought myself to rely on aid stations as the fare can be pretty hit and miss. I always try to grab something, but for me it's a bonus/treat, something a little different. V3K however I loaded my vest up with goodies after an aid station because I was genuinely enjoying eating, so I'd make an exception returning there.£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines? Get real! Can you imagine that over just a marathon? That'd be £30, probably more than the entry fee for a four hour marathon runner, never mind the half-kilo of gel stashed about your person. For a 50 miler, you'd never get up the first hill due to weight alone!
You're right about the costs. Even buying in bulk it can be eye watering. But some people do just find gels work for them (mostly) - the best example I can think of is James Elson. He's at the top of his game and acknowledges that he's a bit weird in finding gels work for him as his main fuel. Works for me too, which is strange - anecdotally most runners move towards real food the further they go, or the longer they're involved.
tenohfive said:
Smitters said:
All this aside, I'm going to experiment with mini stroopwaffles. They pack an alarming amount of calories/100g. It's like eating a stick of butter, but sweet. They could be the new jellybeans for me.
I like (normal) stroopwaffles and I've seen the Gu ones are popular; I might pick a couple up to try them out. I'd be surprised if they're moist enough to rely upon them as a primary source (for me) but for an occasional bit of variety I can see the appeal.hyphen said:
Just checked Strava and a handful of people went running in the snow in the local forest today. Really want to go as will be stunning, but my running shoes have no grip.
What do people wear in snow/ice type conditions?
Salomon speedcross 4 and if really icy some spikes / yak trax on the bottom. Works wellWhat do people wear in snow/ice type conditions?
I wore my normal running shoes in Windsor Great Park this morning and it was fine on the grassy verges as the ground was hard, but the snow light. On the roads which were icy I had to be very slow but I suspect that the forest will have hard ground with soft snow, so as long as you are careful I think you will be ok
bigandclever said:
Smitters said:
£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines? Get real! Can you imagine that over just a marathon? That'd be £30, probably more than the entry fee for a four hour marathon runner, never mind the half-kilo of gel stashed about your person. For a 50 miler, you'd never get up the first hill due to weight alone!
Who's paying £2.50 for a gel? During my last marathon i took 2 gels (£1.60 each) so a total of £3.20 for a 3hr marathon. For my mountain marathon (6hrs) i took 4 gels & some food...again maybe £6 total, I don't know anybody that takes a gel every 20mins, it's recommend every 45/1hr.
That's just giving people in my opinion that are new to marathon/ultra running the wrong advice of what to do/expect when looking at racing these distances.
On the hydration/nutrition thing, there is a lot to be said for what works psychologically or is part of your routine that makes you feel comfortable. It doesn't necessarily have to be of any actual tangible benefit to still be useful to many people (like stretching before a run, part of the routine for many but probably of no benefit whatsoever).
Even at a 10k race many of us average runners will look forward to a 5k water station. It's really not needed unless conditions are extreme, but it's a nice little psychological boost.
Even at a 10k race many of us average runners will look forward to a 5k water station. It's really not needed unless conditions are extreme, but it's a nice little psychological boost.
AbzGuyGTI said:
I agree that is a fair exaggeration to be honest.
I can find both £2.50 gels and advice that suggests you take up to 3/hour, so not really. I suppose that's the joy of the internet. If you search for a few minutes, you can find something to support your view.I'm really not sure why exception is being taken here. Just because we are smart consumers, who have a lively forum to debate and seek advice, doesn't mean everyone does. Some manufacturers write accessible articles about calorie consumption during training that isn't patently self serving. Others do little more than offer blanket advice with no consideration to the athlete involved, but which suggests a suspiciously high intake of their own product(s).
To be as clear as I possibly can be, I'm in no way suggesting taking a gel every 20 mins is a good idea. What I am suggesting is that energy product suppliers may not put your performance at the forefront of their thinking when dishing out consumption advice. I'll leave it there. I think I've flogged this horse dead.
ETA: Nope, gonna flog it a bit more...
More this: https://www.google.co.uk/search?biw=1222&bih=6...
Less this: https://www.google.co.uk/search?biw=1222&bih=6...
Edited by Smitters on Wednesday 28th February 15:20
Water only for me, most of the time, but then I might have some Jelly Babies or Strawberry Strips to excite the senses a little during the middle of the run.
I've never really understood the need for gels on most runs but maybe I don't push hard enough (3:56 marathon but with a poor hamstring
and didn't take a gel), I just made sure I fuel up in the morning with a hearty burrito for any tough runs.
I've seen people on 10KM runs with several gels and wonder why they think it'll help. Is it just psychological for most or do you feel the benefit (or both)? Whenever I've tried a few I've never ran better which I why I've never really bothered with them long term. I'm hopefully going to get up to ultra distance this year so I'm interested in what works for people.
I've never really understood the need for gels on most runs but maybe I don't push hard enough (3:56 marathon but with a poor hamstring
and didn't take a gel), I just made sure I fuel up in the morning with a hearty burrito for any tough runs.I've seen people on 10KM runs with several gels and wonder why they think it'll help. Is it just psychological for most or do you feel the benefit (or both)? Whenever I've tried a few I've never ran better which I why I've never really bothered with them long term. I'm hopefully going to get up to ultra distance this year so I'm interested in what works for people.
Smitters said:
I can find both £2.50 gels and advice that suggests you take up to 3/hour, so not really. I suppose that's the joy of the internet. If you search for a few minutes, you can find something to support your view.
Other stuff....
Yes but that's 2 different things, a gel costing £2.50 and separate advice to take 3 hour. Not what you said earlier in you post '£2.50/gel and one every 20 minutes, as per manufacturers guidelines?' and the links you posted..!Other stuff....
Edited by Smitters on Wednesday 28th February 15:20
I can't find a gel that says that? High5 say 3/hour but are cheap as chips, GU are expensive but 1 every 45mins/hour?! So can't see where you got this £30 marathon stuff that's all!
The other stuff i don't disagree with
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