The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
Had a bit of a breakthrough run on Friday evening. Was trying to keep my HR at or below 130, so low end of "easy"/Z2 for me and returned an average of 5.13/km (flat run) for an HR ave of 131 over 18km. This is quite a step forward in terms of pace vs HR and I'll grant you, one run in isolation isn't proof, but I'm hopeful this is a demonstration of a combo of a lot of focused gym and core work helping my efficiency and some speed work starting to positively affect the rest of my running.
If I can capitalise on this, I ought to be able to really start to make headway because being able to run that pace on easy runs means I can start building the mileage over the next six months and pushing the pace on my tempo runs a bit further. I have a finite amount of time to train, so my priority is doing the right training at the right time. I work hard on running to HR, irrespective of the limitations it places on total mileage because I trust the process. It would be easy to run a bit faster for mileage but I'm finally getting payback on my discipline. Yay.
ETA - added the distance...
If I can capitalise on this, I ought to be able to really start to make headway because being able to run that pace on easy runs means I can start building the mileage over the next six months and pushing the pace on my tempo runs a bit further. I have a finite amount of time to train, so my priority is doing the right training at the right time. I work hard on running to HR, irrespective of the limitations it places on total mileage because I trust the process. It would be easy to run a bit faster for mileage but I'm finally getting payback on my discipline. Yay.
ETA - added the distance...
Edited by Smitters on Monday 23 July 10:57
Interesting outcome from the additional gym work, Smitters.
I recall Tom Williams of parkrun & Marathon Talk fame bigging up CrossFit for giving him a lot of additional strength. Kerry McCarthy of Runners World also shared the same sentiments a couple of years ago, I seem to call.
I'm curious to see whether you see a benefit across a range of distances, or whether there's a sweetspot where the additional strength work helps you. The last couple of years of near-exclusive marathon focus have robbed me of a lot of power in exchange for endurance. I'd like to get some of that explosive power back, where perhaps a less-running-is-more approach, coupled with a more-strength-training-is-more approach, could yield some benefit.
I recall Tom Williams of parkrun & Marathon Talk fame bigging up CrossFit for giving him a lot of additional strength. Kerry McCarthy of Runners World also shared the same sentiments a couple of years ago, I seem to call.
I'm curious to see whether you see a benefit across a range of distances, or whether there's a sweetspot where the additional strength work helps you. The last couple of years of near-exclusive marathon focus have robbed me of a lot of power in exchange for endurance. I'd like to get some of that explosive power back, where perhaps a less-running-is-more approach, coupled with a more-strength-training-is-more approach, could yield some benefit.
Apologies in advance. TLDR, hard runs hard, easy runs easy. Strength good. Must work on brevity.
It's a response to couple of particular points I have been dealing with. First, I seem to get injured ridiculously easily. Very often, when I look back at the period in my training log, it's apparent I succumbed to too big a step in volume and/or intensity. The capped HR for the majority of running has given me the most consistent couple of years of running in the last decade, albeit still with some injuries, all for the reason above. Gotta love hindsight.
Second, I did a lot of cycling between 2011 and 2014 and a lot of bouldering and indoor climbing between 2001 and 2011. I then became a Dad, and mid-week evening rides and climbs, and Sunday morning rides stopped, in favour of lunchtime running as the best use of my time to keep fit. This had an unwanted side effect of my losing a lot of core and leg strength. I live in a hilly area, so very few rides didn't have 500m or more of climbing, which was great for the legs. It was only really late 2017 that I twigged to this, so working with my physio, I've been doing a lot of core and run-specific strength training to rebuild my strength from "woeful" to the current situation "vaguely acceptable". There is more to come - I only just managed a deadlift in excess of my bodyweight.
For me, I've found that it has helped most apparently on very short distances and very long. My current 5k abilities, albeit far from generally impressive (~22 mins at a grassy but flat parkrun) are as good as they've ever been off the back of gym plus pure endurance work for a hilly ultra and no intense training aside from the uphills. Statto aIert: I've only done 875km on running this year to date, 10% of which was one race. But I have climbed 18,200m. I also set a lifetime 800m PB during a 6x3mins intervals session a few weeks back, a month after the ultra and in only the second intervals session I'd done. I think it's allowing my various systems used in running to coordinate and work in harmony more easily, rather than having a good cardio system but a core like a wet noodle meaning my legs wibble about after a few hard miles.
The strength and core really came into their own on the back half of the Race to the Tower, which was 53 miles/2,000m climbing - where I felt capable of running and more "together" than I've ever felt late in an ultra. Comparatively, the positive impact on my marathon is much less, because I think racing that close to "the line", as you have to for a marathon, is significantly aided by speed endurance work (fast finish long runs, or midweek long tempo stuff), work I haven't done much of.
As above, I injure easily with too much running, so I limit myself to three and very occasionally four runs a week, plus two gym sessions. I go hard in the gym and I superset everything (so will e.g. deadlift, then do pressups, take a ten second breather and deadlift again), both for time reasons and to keep the overall workout effort high. These are effectively my hard days right now, making the easy running even more important. Perhaps other runners could sustain a higher volume and get the strength from a hill session and a speedwork session every week, but that'd be a fast track to injury city for me. I would certainly advocate testing some strength training out - maybe Nov-Feb in lieu of getting freezing cold a couple of days a week! Happy to share the exercises I'm doing.
Mothersruin said:
How long have you been following this sort of training?
The HR stuff, since mid-2016. It's essentially an approach to ensure I do the easy stuff easy enough and create the opportunity to do the hard stuff hard.It's a response to couple of particular points I have been dealing with. First, I seem to get injured ridiculously easily. Very often, when I look back at the period in my training log, it's apparent I succumbed to too big a step in volume and/or intensity. The capped HR for the majority of running has given me the most consistent couple of years of running in the last decade, albeit still with some injuries, all for the reason above. Gotta love hindsight.
Second, I did a lot of cycling between 2011 and 2014 and a lot of bouldering and indoor climbing between 2001 and 2011. I then became a Dad, and mid-week evening rides and climbs, and Sunday morning rides stopped, in favour of lunchtime running as the best use of my time to keep fit. This had an unwanted side effect of my losing a lot of core and leg strength. I live in a hilly area, so very few rides didn't have 500m or more of climbing, which was great for the legs. It was only really late 2017 that I twigged to this, so working with my physio, I've been doing a lot of core and run-specific strength training to rebuild my strength from "woeful" to the current situation "vaguely acceptable". There is more to come - I only just managed a deadlift in excess of my bodyweight.
Cybertronian said:
Interesting outcome from the additional gym work, Smitters.
I recall Tom Williams of parkrun & Marathon Talk fame bigging up CrossFit for giving him a lot of additional strength. Kerry McCarthy of Runners World also shared the same sentiments a couple of years ago, I seem to call.
I'm curious to see whether you see a benefit across a range of distances, or whether there's a sweetspot where the additional strength work helps you. The last couple of years of near-exclusive marathon focus have robbed me of a lot of power in exchange for endurance. I'd like to get some of that explosive power back, where perhaps a less-running-is-more approach, coupled with a more-strength-training-is-more approach, could yield some benefit.
I heard the same podcast and it was one of the seeds that got planted and eventually let to my questioning the strength issues.I recall Tom Williams of parkrun & Marathon Talk fame bigging up CrossFit for giving him a lot of additional strength. Kerry McCarthy of Runners World also shared the same sentiments a couple of years ago, I seem to call.
I'm curious to see whether you see a benefit across a range of distances, or whether there's a sweetspot where the additional strength work helps you. The last couple of years of near-exclusive marathon focus have robbed me of a lot of power in exchange for endurance. I'd like to get some of that explosive power back, where perhaps a less-running-is-more approach, coupled with a more-strength-training-is-more approach, could yield some benefit.
For me, I've found that it has helped most apparently on very short distances and very long. My current 5k abilities, albeit far from generally impressive (~22 mins at a grassy but flat parkrun) are as good as they've ever been off the back of gym plus pure endurance work for a hilly ultra and no intense training aside from the uphills. Statto aIert: I've only done 875km on running this year to date, 10% of which was one race. But I have climbed 18,200m. I also set a lifetime 800m PB during a 6x3mins intervals session a few weeks back, a month after the ultra and in only the second intervals session I'd done. I think it's allowing my various systems used in running to coordinate and work in harmony more easily, rather than having a good cardio system but a core like a wet noodle meaning my legs wibble about after a few hard miles.
The strength and core really came into their own on the back half of the Race to the Tower, which was 53 miles/2,000m climbing - where I felt capable of running and more "together" than I've ever felt late in an ultra. Comparatively, the positive impact on my marathon is much less, because I think racing that close to "the line", as you have to for a marathon, is significantly aided by speed endurance work (fast finish long runs, or midweek long tempo stuff), work I haven't done much of.
As above, I injure easily with too much running, so I limit myself to three and very occasionally four runs a week, plus two gym sessions. I go hard in the gym and I superset everything (so will e.g. deadlift, then do pressups, take a ten second breather and deadlift again), both for time reasons and to keep the overall workout effort high. These are effectively my hard days right now, making the easy running even more important. Perhaps other runners could sustain a higher volume and get the strength from a hill session and a speedwork session every week, but that'd be a fast track to injury city for me. I would certainly advocate testing some strength training out - maybe Nov-Feb in lieu of getting freezing cold a couple of days a week! Happy to share the exercises I'm doing.
Smitters said:
Good stuff on strength training.
Thanks for your thoughts - excellent insight!I'm defo of the opinion that I could benefit from something. My form is generally excellent for 80% of a race distance, then goes to pot as I grow tired and fatigued - you know the look, my shoulders hunch forward, my stride shortens, my core starts rocking and rolling from side to side...
Please do share the exercises you're doing.
Smitters said:
Strength work.
I was listening to a podcast recently in which scientists that conducted studies on the effect of downhill running (for the uninitiated, ultras are almost exclusively hilly) discussed what they found. In a nutshell, downhill running trashes your muscles badly enough to effect the ability of those muscles to produce a certain speed in the later stages of a race. I hadn't realised the effects of the damage caused were that soon (much as I've experienced them!) - I'd always put it down to other factors such as fueling, hydration etc.So taking steps to increase your muscles resilience (of which strength training is undoubtedly one) makes absolute sense. And I pretty much agree with everything else you've said.
One thing you might find interesting though is that the best results from your strength work will be achieved if you do them immediately following a hard session - best case scenario, your LSR. If not an interval or effort session. Mitochondrial recruitment (the actual aim of strength training, on a cellular level) is highest in that scenario. I'd literally come in the door, take a drink through to the garden and go into a weight session.
For me it fell by the wayside when not in race build up as my LSR is 2.5-3 hours anyway, add in 30 minutes of weights and recovery time after and the day is gone. But worth knowing in any event.
Signed up for a local half marathon in September....giving me 8 weeks to go from my current running (5k, 2 - 3 times a week) up to the half distance.
Found a plan online which looks reasonable and builds in a reasonable taper period, currently on Day 2 of 55 - Yesterday and today both 4 miles.
Hope you dont mind me joining the thread!
Found a plan online which looks reasonable and builds in a reasonable taper period, currently on Day 2 of 55 - Yesterday and today both 4 miles.
Hope you dont mind me joining the thread!
tenohfive said:
Smitters said:
Strength work.
Post run strength work.Right - the exercises:
Disclaimer - if your spine pops out of your back because some guy on the internet said to do x/y/z, you've probably not done it right. Form! Lighter weight! Lose the ego! If in doubt, don't do it, or better, explain the exercise and ask a trainer at the gym to watch you and give feedback.
Premise: The idea of many of these exercises is to challenge single limbs, or opposing limbs, mimicking the opposition found in running (right leg, left arm fwd, left leg right arm frw). The single limb approach also helps balance any side to side strength discrepancies. I've deliberately not included weights because everyone is different. Where I used body weight I've put (bw). There's no need to get into the ins and outs of many reps vs few reps here. I'm just starting out, so this is as much about learning movement patterns while controlling a weight as it is building some endurance and tolerance to lactic acid (there will be some). Besides, the supersetting really doesn't lend itself to lifts with less than ten reps as there's little recovery.
For clarity, when I say superset, I mean you complete one set of the first exercise in the table row, then go right to the second exercise and complete a set of that. Ideally, you come right back and do exercise 1, set 2. A few seconds to compose yourself is fine. A five minute FaceBook break is not, and will get you onto the Gym Moans thread. Besides, if you're occupying two stations, looking like you're hammering along gets you some freedom from other gym-goers!
Form: Form, as usual, is everything, especially as a lot of these oppose other muscles and involve twisting, rather than movements in a single plane. If in doubt, YouTube is a great resource for form, when taken with a pinch of salt. I'll try and find some vids for the more obscure exercises, but they may be edits in later.
Warm-up and Cool-down: Up to you, whatever works. I do 5 mins of an all body cardio machine, so a cross-trainer, battle bike or rower and keep it easy, trending to moderate at the end. If I'm stiff from a previous day, I may roll out a little. CD, I try and do another easy five mins on an all body machine and maybe some light stretching if time allows. Everyone's different. I never, ever skip WU, but I do sometimes skip CD (and often regret it about three hours later). I do foam roll at home every other day at least though.
Workout A
| Exercise | Sets/Reps | Exercise | Sets/Reps | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Split Squat (nb1) | 4 x 20 each side | superset with | TRX/barbell rows | 4 x 10 |
| Seated Single Leg Extension | 4 x 20 each leg | superset with | Press-ups | 4 x 10-20 |
| Cable Woodchop | 3 x 10 each side | superset with | Pull-ups (bw) | 4 x ? (nb2) |
| Single Leg Calf Raise (nb3) | 4 x 20 each leg | superset with | Single Leg Hip Thruster (bw) (nb4) | 4 x 10-20 each leg |
| Single Leg Deadlift (nb5) | 4 x 10-20 each leg | superset with | Hanging Leg Raise (nb6) | 4 x 10 |
Workout B
| Exercise | Sets/Reps | Exercise | Sets/Reps | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Deadlift | 3 x 8-10 | superset with | Press-ups | 4 x 10-20 |
| Seated Single Leg Press | 4 x 20 each leg | superset with | Pull-ups | 4 x ? (nb2) |
| Dead bug (nb7) | 3 x 20 each side | superset with | NA | NA |
| Single Leg Hamstring Curl | 4 x 20 each leg | superset with | Mountain Climbers (nb8) | 4 x 10-20 |
| Single Leg Deadlift (nb5) | 4 x 10-20 each leg | superset with | NA | NA |
| Single Leg Calf Raise (nb3) | 4 x 20 each leg | superset with | NA | NA |
General - when supersetting single leg stuff, I do one leg, then the next, then on to a the second exercise, then back. Where I state four sets, that's four sets per leg. So, taking calf raises as an example, I'd do 20 on the left leg, 20 on the right leg, then hop off the machine, go and do hip thrusters on my left leg, hip thrusters on my right leg, then head back for round two of the calf raises.
(nb1) To activate the glute, squat in a rack and use a band to pull your knee inwards. Resist the pull and keep the knee tracking straight.
(nb2) I'm feeble, so I use a band to assist and do 4 x 7-10 wide grip pull-ups. YMMV.
(nb3) These are done on a seated leg press machine. Lacking that, they can be done with a reasonably heavy dumbell and standing, but you have to really watch form and you may quite quickly get to a point where there isn't a dumbell heavy enough. I do bent leg for set 1, straight for set 2, bent for 3, straight for 4. If you're gym's cool with it, these are best done in your socks.
(nb4) I don't do the hyperextension to this degree, but this is a decent (if shouty) description: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEdqd1n0cvg Single leg version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7q9aCVvR0
(nb5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F265xoevqrY Do this one in your socks/barefoot too. Control is everything, especially on the downward portion. A bad rep doesn't count, so if you topple, unlucky (hence maybe starting with 10 reps...). As you maintain the soft bend, the knee should track forwards very slightly, not inwards. Limit the depth of the reach initially if you have to. Instead of reaching with both hands, imagine this is an exaggerated running stride, so reach down with the opposite hand to the leg you're standing on. To finish the move, come up tall again, and gently do a knee drive, so your non-floor thigh comes up parallel to the ground and your floor-side hand matches it with a slow running-style arm-swing. Keep your floor foot flat. Once you can nail 20, add a light dumbell into the non-floor side hand and resist the twist of the leg that goes out behind. For workout B, just cut any rest, so go left/right/left/right until the sets are done.
(nb6) Either hang from a pull-up bar or use a dips bar. Initially you can have bend knees, progressing to straight legs, brought out to horizontal. Mind your lower back. No swinging the legs up!
(nb7) Start with standard dead bug. Form is everything, so activate the core and don't allow the lower back to arch off the floor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IykMKgbm_E . A good progression is to add a very light dumbell and instead of going overhead, go out to the side at 90 degrees, like a pec fly. Use the other arm out at 90 on the floor to brace if required, keep both shoulders down to resist the twist and work on bringing the stabilising arm in to the side of the body. All the other form rules still apply - engaged core, back flat etc. In both cases, it's better to do 15 good ones that 20 where you're gurning and wobbling.
(nb8) Be creative with the mountain climbers - some fast, some slow, some knee to opposite elbow, some with unstable hands (e.g. on a bosu/gymball) some with unstable feet.
Constructive criticism, comments, questions all welcome. There's definitely a discussion around the value of low weight high rep exercises versus high weight low reps, and a lot of evidence seems to point towards developing the latter as beneficial to running. I'm taking my physio's advice and starting at the first chapter, with a view to laying a solid and even foundation, ironing out imbalances using the single-side stuff and then moving on towards more explosive, very running specific plyometric movements or heavier weights. One thing at a time though. If I've learnt anything, it's that more patience is almost always what's required.
Enjoy.
Edited for minor clarifications and some set/rep info.
Edited by Smitters on Wednesday 25th July 10:51
I'm on a 50k training plan ready for the votwo atlantic challenge in oct ( 3 days 3 marathons)
The plan has the usual long run sat back to back run sunday but i find running sat tricky due to work so i'm doing :
sun - long run trail ( currently 13-15 but august and sept i'll be doing 20 - 26 every sunday )
mon - 8 miles road
tues- 6 mile club trail run
weds - 6 mile club road run
thurs - 6 mile trail run
now i'm aware i'm cramming everything into the start of the week but i seem to be coping fine with it as long as i don't push for more speed , however would it be to much to bang in a strength session thurs/fri and ditch the thursday run ?
The plan has the usual long run sat back to back run sunday but i find running sat tricky due to work so i'm doing :
sun - long run trail ( currently 13-15 but august and sept i'll be doing 20 - 26 every sunday )
mon - 8 miles road
tues- 6 mile club trail run
weds - 6 mile club road run
thurs - 6 mile trail run
now i'm aware i'm cramming everything into the start of the week but i seem to be coping fine with it as long as i don't push for more speed , however would it be to much to bang in a strength session thurs/fri and ditch the thursday run ?
Off to Kenya soon for the inaugural ‘BTU For Rangers’ multi-dayer. Five stages, 150miles or so, self-sufficient. Should be a laugh, but it’s only been a few weeks since a similar jaunt in the jungle and training has been sporadic to say the least.
Promo vid .. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3L0h2zk9180
Promo vid .. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3L0h2zk9180
Pete102 said:
Signed up for a local half marathon in September....giving me 8 weeks to go from my current running (5k, 2 - 3 times a week) up to the half distance.
Hope you dont mind me joining the thread!
Hi Pete,Hope you dont mind me joining the thread!
Welcome to the thread,
Of course your welcome,
Post weekly your updates from your training plan, …. If you have the running blue's vent your frustration here,
Good luck with the HM
bigandclever said:
Off to Kenya soon for the inaugural ‘BTU For Rangers’ multi-dayer. Five stages, 150miles or so, self-sufficient. Should be a laugh, but it’s only been a few weeks since a similar jaunt in the jungle and training has been sporadic to say the least.
Promo vid .. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3L0h2zk9180
Your user name does not equate with what you are about to do Promo vid .. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3L0h2zk9180
Awesome!!!!
The jiffle king said:
Garmin connectbdown this morning. Think my run and cycle buddies have gone into meltdown at not being able to see their morning results
Well, obviously - if it's not on Strava it didn't happen.I have to admit to getting somewhat bothered when this stuff stops working. I recently began running somewhere new and as a bit of motivation to get out the door and start ramping my training/intensity up, plus increase my technical (downhill) skills I set my eye on a few segments. One in particular I've run 4 times at full pace trying to get the CR; Strava only acknowledged it once.
Fortunately one of those efforts was enough to put me in the top spot
(Yes, I know how that all makes me look - and I'm okay with it.)
Edited by tenohfive on Thursday 26th July 09:17
tenohfive said:
Well, obviously - if it's not on Strava it didn't happen.
I have to admit to getting somewhat bothered when this stuff stops working. I recently began running somewhere new and as a bit of motivation to get out the door and start ramping my training/intensity up, plus build up some technical (downhill) skills I set my eye on a few segments. One in particular I've run 4 times at full pace trying to get the CR; Strava only acknowledged it once.
Fortunately one of those efforts was enough to put me in the top spot
(Yes, I know how that all makes me look - and I'm okay with it.)
I did a fartlek this morning and wanted to see how I performed... hopefully won’t be too long until we get it backI have to admit to getting somewhat bothered when this stuff stops working. I recently began running somewhere new and as a bit of motivation to get out the door and start ramping my training/intensity up, plus build up some technical (downhill) skills I set my eye on a few segments. One in particular I've run 4 times at full pace trying to get the CR; Strava only acknowledged it once.
Fortunately one of those efforts was enough to put me in the top spot
(Yes, I know how that all makes me look - and I'm okay with it.)
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