The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
RobM77 said:
I was busy all day yesterday and my wife worked late, so being home alone with our baby in the evening I was forced into my first proper run on our rented treadmill. I had to stop after 4km because of knee pain. Has anyone else experienced this? I was running at my easy pace with a heart rate in the low 140s and did my usual warm up routine beforehand. I've got an 11km intervals run at lunch and am a bit worried I'll perpetuate the problem, but I'm equally aware I only did 4km yesterday!
Have you used that treadmill much? I like them but only really use them for intervals. Although they’re springy (depending on model) you’re often landing exactly the same way on them if you’re running at the same speed incline etc. I’ve found sometimes if I feel a niggle I just up the speed for a bit or reduce it, or change the incline, just to use slightly different parts of my feet and legs and supporting structures.
If it leasts after that I just stop and do something else or maybe some stretching strength training etc.
El stovey said:
RobM77 said:
I was busy all day yesterday and my wife worked late, so being home alone with our baby in the evening I was forced into my first proper run on our rented treadmill. I had to stop after 4km because of knee pain. Has anyone else experienced this? I was running at my easy pace with a heart rate in the low 140s and did my usual warm up routine beforehand. I've got an 11km intervals run at lunch and am a bit worried I'll perpetuate the problem, but I'm equally aware I only did 4km yesterday!
Have you used that treadmill much? I like them but only really use them for intervals. Although they’re springy (depending on model) you’re often landing exactly the same way on them if you’re running at the same speed incline etc. I’ve found sometimes if I feel a niggle I just up the speed for a bit or reduce it, or change the incline, just to use slightly different parts of my feet and legs and supporting structures.
If it leasts after that I just stop and do something else or maybe some stretching strength training etc.
I found the treadmill takes a while to get used to, especially if your balance/coordination is not great, like mine. But the reduction in impact is a massive benefit. Touch wood, I've never picked up an injury from treadmill running.
I can believe there are small differences in form/biomechanics, but I've never quite understood the view held strongly by some people that they're totally different.
Your previous posts about training approach/strategy have been (admirably!) cautious and far-sighted - so surely the right decision now would be to ease back a bit and give the knee time to adjust, rather than commit to the 11k intervals?
I can believe there are small differences in form/biomechanics, but I've never quite understood the view held strongly by some people that they're totally different.
Your previous posts about training approach/strategy have been (admirably!) cautious and far-sighted - so surely the right decision now would be to ease back a bit and give the knee time to adjust, rather than commit to the 11k intervals?
RobM77 said:
I've used it briefly as part of my strength routine twice a week, but this was my first proper run of any duration on it. I've read some research that suggests our biomechanics changes on soft surfaces (they measured this and explained the probable mechanism), and the treadmill has cushioning, whereas I'm used to running on tarmac roads.
Makes sense. Maybe it’s like going from vibrams to Hokas or vice versa and you’re just using slightly different parts of your body a bit more etc? I used to get it sometimes if I’m running on a soft beach. Although you can be awesome at running it’s very specific groups of muscle etc that you use. It doesn’t take much change in shoe or surface to be using different structures more, then if you’re doing exactly the same motion in a treadmill you might be exposing this change more than off road or with a more undulating surface.
I used to do loads of triathlon and thought through doing three disciplines I was using my whole body but when I started doing more body weight HIIT sessions I suddenly couldn’t walk because I wasn’t used to doing squats or press-ups and burpees etc.
I try to mix up what I run on as much as possible and it seems to be keeping me injury free. I’m not trying to be fast though, or following a plan, I just enjoy being out and about and doing it.
webstercivet said:
I found the treadmill takes a while to get used to, especially if your balance/coordination is not great, like mine. But the reduction in impact is a massive benefit. Touch wood, I've never picked up an injury from treadmill running.
I can believe there are small differences in form/biomechanics, but I've never quite understood the view held strongly by some people that they're totally different.
Your previous posts about training approach/strategy have been (admirably!) cautious and far-sighted - so surely the right decision now would be to ease back a bit and give the knee time to adjust, rather than commit to the 11k intervals?
Yes, you're absolutely right of course! I'm a typical runner and hate taking time out. I think today I'll do my 2km easy jog to the start of where I do intervals, try some 400 metre intervals rather than the planned 800s, and just listen out for any knee issues. I have my first half marathon in a few weeks, so don't want to lose training effect, but equally yes, I don't want to get injured.I can believe there are small differences in form/biomechanics, but I've never quite understood the view held strongly by some people that they're totally different.
Your previous posts about training approach/strategy have been (admirably!) cautious and far-sighted - so surely the right decision now would be to ease back a bit and give the knee time to adjust, rather than commit to the 11k intervals?
RobM77 said:
Yes, you're absolutely right of course! I'm a typical runner and hate taking time out. I think today I'll do my 2km easy jog to the start of where I do intervals, try some 400 metre intervals rather than the planned 800s, and just listen out for any knee issues. I have my first half marathon in a few weeks, so don't want to lose training effect, but equally yes, I don't want to get injured.
If you take a day off or dial back the training, it’s not going to make much difference to your fitness or overall plan really? I used to be really obsessive about training plans and actually taking a day off makes no difference and might actually be a huge benefit if you avoid injury.
I just listen to my body now and if something hurts I just stop. It’s usually ok if I have a day off and go again.
Pulling a muscle or spraining something or getting plantar fasciitis etc will do much more harm to any plan.
If you’re having a day off you can still do stuff like stretching or yoga etc
Very much agree. The perception is that your muscles start dissolving into nothing the moment you take a day off, but the evidence suggests you could even take a full week off with minimal impact on performance ( source).
With the caveats that (1) even if there's no loss of fitness relative to the status quo, there will still be some loss relative to the counterfactual of improving performance; and (2) I tend to stuff my face with food on days when I don't have a run to motivate me!
With the caveats that (1) even if there's no loss of fitness relative to the status quo, there will still be some loss relative to the counterfactual of improving performance; and (2) I tend to stuff my face with food on days when I don't have a run to motivate me!
I think it's important to realise the distinction though between 1) a subtle ache that'll just go away normally (such things are normal when training for improved performance), 2) a potential injury, and 3) something specific that hurts because you're doing A, but won't hurt when doing B.
What I plan to do today is to pay particular attention to the knee that hurt on the treadmill yesterday to try and ascertain whether it's a 1, 2, or a 3. It's best to err on the side of doubt of course!
What I plan to do today is to pay particular attention to the knee that hurt on the treadmill yesterday to try and ascertain whether it's a 1, 2, or a 3. It's best to err on the side of doubt of course!
love it. webstercivet said:
Very much agree. The perception is that your muscles start dissolving into nothing the moment you take a day off, but the evidence suggests you could even take a full week off with minimal impact on performance ( source).
Hmm.. annoyingly their citation links take me to the publication homepage, rather than the papers, so I can't check what I wanted to check... Basically, it's well proven that if you stop exercise or weight training for a period, then your fitness and/or strength continue to improve for a period after stopping. This is obviously because you don't get fitter during the exercise itself, but in the rest period afterwards when muscles rebuild. So it makes sense that runners tested after a week's lay off are no less fit. This is one of the key principles behind a taper week. What I wanted to check is whether they'd not just checked fitness after a week's layoff (where it's hardly a surprise there's no change), but if they had actually found some way to check running performance a month or two down the line, where one group of runners trained consistently, and the others had a week off in the middle.
There's been some recent research on runners' reaction to injury, investigating the consequences of runners stopping completely for a few weeks and then returning to running again with poorer form, weaker muscles etc, and the consequential increase in chances of injury they bring with them.
What I tend to do if I pick up a niggle is to back off total loading, so perhaps cancelling a high impact session such as tempo, reduce my mileage slightly as you would during a taper week, and if it's very pronounced take an extra day off. That seems to have worked so far.
joshcowin said:
Mitochondrion productivity decreases after 3-5 days of no training. I am not a doctor and I dont really understand it but I believe I heard it from Tom Schwartz a running coach, not a scientist!
I didn't want to make my post two long, but there are obviously a number of different facets to athletic performance, all of which will have a different time period.RobM77 said:
I didn't want to make my post two long, but there are obviously a number of different facets to athletic performance, all of which will have a different time period.Not being a smart arse at all about the cell things just thought it was interesting how quickly the body adapts and starts a different course of action!
joshcowin said:
RobM77 said:
I didn't want to make my post two long, but there are obviously a number of different facets to athletic performance, all of which will have a different time period.Not being a smart arse at all about the cell things just thought it was interesting how quickly the body adapts and starts a different course of action!
A poster earlier on this thread said that he ran a 40 minute 10k when the entire running club were watching him, when his previous PB was 42 minutes. That improvement might typically take someone months of focussed training to achieve (for me it took just over 3 months to go from 42 to 40).
RobM77 said:
It'd certainly be interesting to see the data on that. A runner who can today run a 50 minute 10k and trains for two years to drop that to 40 minutes has obviously made big advances in measures such as VO2 Max, running efficiency and strength. Nobody would argue that with a perfect psychological approach (or a dose of amphetamines!) he would run a 40 minute 10k on day 1, because he undoubtedly wouldn't be physically capable of it, but it'd be interesting to know what contribution each element of performance would make to that improvement.
A poster earlier on this thread said that he ran a 40 minute 10k when the entire running club were watching him, when his previous PB was 42 minutes. That improvement might typically take someone months of focussed training to achieve (for me it took just over 3 months to go from 42 to 40).
The psychology aspect is huge - a crowd at a race, a runner's heels you are hanging onto, someone you are chasing down, even just reaching for the quick shoes before a run rather than the trainers - all make a difference - how you quantify it is another matter.A poster earlier on this thread said that he ran a 40 minute 10k when the entire running club were watching him, when his previous PB was 42 minutes. That improvement might typically take someone months of focussed training to achieve (for me it took just over 3 months to go from 42 to 40).
Obviously the primary driver is the physical aspect, but getting your mind in the right place is so important. I can think of so many races where I have had a dark patch - my HR and pace might say I am ok, but my mind is thinking of stopping or asking "why?" Being able to get through it is key. Especially in longer races there will be moments where both your physical and mental state hits peaks and troughs - knowing this and how to deal with it can make a huge difference - losing a couple of seconds here and there can easily snowball if your mental game falls apart and you start chasing time or letting it get to you.
On a related note - 3.5 x 2km (was supposed to be 5 x 2km...) intervals at 3.50-3.55/km with 90 secs rest at 6 min/km last night. The last 1.5 2km intervals were done at 4.15-4.20 - some of it was certainly mental - when your legs are screaming to stop and the Garmin lady says in your ear you are only half way into the interval is crushing - could be negative about it or could say that I at least made it to the end (albeit at a reduced pace) and that it is good training either way. Managed an hour of yoga after with the Mrs, although anything that needed any leg strength or balance was wasted on me - had proper Elvis sewing machine leg going on.
Swim/sauna tonight and then 3 days of easy long running to start getting the distance up, with a weights class on Sunday - can't wait - running at a normal pace instead of all this speedwork b
ks can't come soon enough 
Parsnip said:
The psychology aspect is huge - a crowd at a race, a runner's heels you are hanging onto, someone you are chasing down, even just reaching for the quick shoes before a run rather than the trainers - all make a difference - how you quantify it is another matter.
Obviously the primary driver is the physical aspect, but getting your mind in the right place is so important. I can think of so many races where I have had a dark patch - my HR and pace might say I am ok, but my mind is thinking of stopping or asking "why?" Being able to get through it is key. Especially in longer races there will be moments where both your physical and mental state hits peaks and troughs - knowing this and how to deal with it can make a huge difference - losing a couple of seconds here and there can easily snowball if your mental game falls apart and you start chasing time or letting it get to you.
...
I'd agreed with this. For a period of about 7 years (in the 1990s) I was probably in similar physical shape throughout, but in the earlier years I can honestly say that I reached points in races of 10KM or more where the discomfort got the better of me and I convinced myself that I was done, and dropped off the pace. Towards the end of the period I finally developed the mental strength to push through to the finish line. Perversely though, it was the knowledge of the increased training I was doing which gave me the belief that I could push hard to the finish of a longer race. I'd built up to marathon training mileage and as a result a 10KM didn't seem as daunting as it did for a 5000m runner. So both physical and mental aspects contributed.Obviously the primary driver is the physical aspect, but getting your mind in the right place is so important. I can think of so many races where I have had a dark patch - my HR and pace might say I am ok, but my mind is thinking of stopping or asking "why?" Being able to get through it is key. Especially in longer races there will be moments where both your physical and mental state hits peaks and troughs - knowing this and how to deal with it can make a huge difference - losing a couple of seconds here and there can easily snowball if your mental game falls apart and you start chasing time or letting it get to you.
...
in theory 
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