The Running Thread Vol 2

[smn159]

RobM77 said:

I had a race on Nov 14th, which was annoying as it's now obviously been cancelled. I'm about to rebook for December, so fingers crossed that can take place. I've asked to be notified about Brighton Marathon as well. I've not even done a Half yet (the ones I've entered keep getting cancelled...), but I figured I'm not getting any younger and I already run nearly 90km a week, so should adjust to marathon training ok.

I experimented with a caffeine gel on Friday, with the thought of using one before my next race, and it didn't go too well. The evidence is that it can boost your performance, and this is an effect pretty much all studies have consistently shown. I'm unusual in that I've never really had caffeine before; I don't drink tea or coffee, and I barely eat chocolate. In theory then the effect should be stunning. I had severe stomach cramps all afternoon and it took me 3 hours to get to sleep! Not something I'll be trying again.

What does your weekly long run look like at 90Km / week Rob? I started using Runalyze recently and imported all of my data from Garmin... it's telling me that to achieve my marathon predicted time I should be running 75km / week with a weekly long run of 27k consistently for a period of 6 months - so a bit of work for me to do!!!

[RobM77]

smn159 said:

RobM77 said:

I had a race on Nov 14th, which was annoying as it's now obviously been cancelled. I'm about to rebook for December, so fingers crossed that can take place. I've asked to be notified about Brighton Marathon as well. I've not even done a Half yet (the ones I've entered keep getting cancelled...), but I figured I'm not getting any younger and I already run nearly 90km a week, so should adjust to marathon training ok.

I experimented with a caffeine gel on Friday, with the thought of using one before my next race, and it didn't go too well. The evidence is that it can boost your performance, and this is an effect pretty much all studies have consistently shown. I'm unusual in that I've never really had caffeine before; I don't drink tea or coffee, and I barely eat chocolate. In theory then the effect should be stunning. I had severe stomach cramps all afternoon and it took me 3 hours to get to sleep! Not something I'll be trying again.

What does your weekly long run look like at 90Km / week Rob? I started using Runalyze recently and imported all of my data from Garmin... it's telling me that to achieve my marathon predicted time I should be running 75km / week with a weekly long run of 27k consistently for a period of 6 months - so a bit of work for me to do!!!

I'm currently training for 10k with a view to do a half marathon soon, so I'm following Jack Daniel's suggestion of the lesser of 25% and 120min. At my 80-90km a week, my long runs are therefore about 21-23km (for my easy pace that's about 1hr40-1hr50). For marathon training these obviously get slowly built up to be longer (just over 30km at peak I think), which if I get into Brighton I'll start doing next year.

I'm making two modifications to Jack's plan: First, I don't do Jack's "Marathon pace" runs on alternate weeks, because even he admits they have limited physiological benefits, I'm worried about injury, and many other sources extol the virtues of a weekly easy long run, so that's what I do. Secondly, I've noticed that other plans alternate between slightly shorter and slightly longer long runs, so I've started doing that too - one week I'll do 21-23km, the next it'll be 18-19km.

The only thing I'm not looking forward to is ice stopping running... It was -3 here this morning when I woke up.

[smn159]

RobM77 said:

smn159 said:

RobM77 said:

I had a race on Nov 14th, which was annoying as it's now obviously been cancelled. I'm about to rebook for December, so fingers crossed that can take place. I've asked to be notified about Brighton Marathon as well. I've not even done a Half yet (the ones I've entered keep getting cancelled...), but I figured I'm not getting any younger and I already run nearly 90km a week, so should adjust to marathon training ok.

I experimented with a caffeine gel on Friday, with the thought of using one before my next race, and it didn't go too well. The evidence is that it can boost your performance, and this is an effect pretty much all studies have consistently shown. I'm unusual in that I've never really had caffeine before; I don't drink tea or coffee, and I barely eat chocolate. In theory then the effect should be stunning. I had severe stomach cramps all afternoon and it took me 3 hours to get to sleep! Not something I'll be trying again.

What does your weekly long run look like at 90Km / week Rob? I started using Runalyze recently and imported all of my data from Garmin... it's telling me that to achieve my marathon predicted time I should be running 75km / week with a weekly long run of 27k consistently for a period of 6 months - so a bit of work for me to do!!!

I'm currently training for 10k with a view to do a half marathon soon, so I'm following Jack Daniel's suggestion of the lesser of 25% and 120min. At my 80-90km a week, my long runs are therefore about 21-23km (for my easy pace that's about 1hr40-1hr50). For marathon training these obviously get slowly built up to be longer (just over 30km at peak I think), which if I get into Brighton I'll start doing next year.

I'm making two modifications to Jack's plan: First, I don't do Jack's "Marathon pace" runs on alternate weeks, because even he admits they have limited physiological benefits, I'm worried about injury, and many other sources extol the virtues of a weekly easy long run, so that's what I do. Secondly, I've noticed that other plans alternate between slightly shorter and slightly longer long runs, so I've started doing that too - one week I'll do 21-23km, the next it'll be 18-19km.

The only thing I'm not looking forward to is ice stopping running... It was -3 here this morning when I woke up.

Thanks - I'm sticking with a weekly long run of 21-23k at the moment as I continue to build the mileage up again. I've been prone to injury in the past so am experimenting with dropping the mileage back to around 60% of my usual volume every 2-3 weeks as my legs adapt and to try and avoid injury due to accumulated mileage - so at 65k / week I'll drop back to a recovery week of around 40k once every 2-3 weeks. This is mainly because I've struggled in the past with weekly runs beyond about 26-27k so I probably need a bit more recovery time at my age (56).

I had a coach for a time last year and she was keen on fast finish long runs, where you ramp up the pace from half way and end up finishing at MP, as well as periods of alternating paces during the run, but I'll save those for the later stages of marathon training I think and continue to try and ramp up more easily for now.

[cslwannabe]

What gel did you try Rob? When I did my marathon I tried an assortment during training runs (I ran as far as 32km in training) - some are very thick and impossible to take without a drink whereas some are almost drink like - High5 Isogel. Since then Maurten have come along and I’ve tried their standard gel (caffeine version launched later) and its probably the nicest tasting I’ve come across. Still pretty thick so I tend to warm it in my hand before opening it. I laugh at how many gels people carry / take. I just used the 2 official gel stations on the route at York - quite late on in the race but I figured they knew what they were doing. If you don’t like gels try Shot Bloks or Sport Beans.

[RobM77]

cslwannabe said:

What gel did you try Rob? When I did my marathon I tried an assortment during training runs (I ran as far as 32km in training) - some are very thick and impossible to take without a drink whereas some are almost drink like - High5 Isogel. Since then Maurten have come along and I’ve tried their standard gel (caffeine version launched later) and its probably the nicest tasting I’ve come across. Still pretty thick so I tend to warm it in my hand before opening it. I laugh at how many gels people carry / take. I just used the 2 official gel stations on the route at York - quite late on in the race but I figured they knew what they were doing. If you don’t like gels try Shot Bloks or Sport Beans.

Maurten CAF 100. I've got quite a sensitive sense of taste, and until Maurten arrived I couldn't stomach gels at all - most would make me vomit straight away, just with the strength of the flavour (I've never eaten sweets for the same reason). Maurten are basic with no taste, so are my preference. Having said that, I don't use them for 10k races or any training runs, so I've only experimented with two plain and that one CAF one in readiness for half marathons, but the HMs keep getting cancelled so have never taken it further.

[RobM77]

smn159 said:

RobM77 said:

smn159 said:

RobM77 said:

I had a race on Nov 14th, which was annoying as it's now obviously been cancelled. I'm about to rebook for December, so fingers crossed that can take place. I've asked to be notified about Brighton Marathon as well. I've not even done a Half yet (the ones I've entered keep getting cancelled...), but I figured I'm not getting any younger and I already run nearly 90km a week, so should adjust to marathon training ok.

I experimented with a caffeine gel on Friday, with the thought of using one before my next race, and it didn't go too well. The evidence is that it can boost your performance, and this is an effect pretty much all studies have consistently shown. I'm unusual in that I've never really had caffeine before; I don't drink tea or coffee, and I barely eat chocolate. In theory then the effect should be stunning. I had severe stomach cramps all afternoon and it took me 3 hours to get to sleep! Not something I'll be trying again.

What does your weekly long run look like at 90Km / week Rob? I started using Runalyze recently and imported all of my data from Garmin... it's telling me that to achieve my marathon predicted time I should be running 75km / week with a weekly long run of 27k consistently for a period of 6 months - so a bit of work for me to do!!!

I'm currently training for 10k with a view to do a half marathon soon, so I'm following Jack Daniel's suggestion of the lesser of 25% and 120min. At my 80-90km a week, my long runs are therefore about 21-23km (for my easy pace that's about 1hr40-1hr50). For marathon training these obviously get slowly built up to be longer (just over 30km at peak I think), which if I get into Brighton I'll start doing next year.

I'm making two modifications to Jack's plan: First, I don't do Jack's "Marathon pace" runs on alternate weeks, because even he admits they have limited physiological benefits, I'm worried about injury, and many other sources extol the virtues of a weekly easy long run, so that's what I do. Secondly, I've noticed that other plans alternate between slightly shorter and slightly longer long runs, so I've started doing that too - one week I'll do 21-23km, the next it'll be 18-19km.

The only thing I'm not looking forward to is ice stopping running... It was -3 here this morning when I woke up.

Thanks - I'm sticking with a weekly long run of 21-23k at the moment as I continue to build the mileage up again. I've been prone to injury in the past so am experimenting with dropping the mileage back to around 60% of my usual volume every 2-3 weeks as my legs adapt and to try and avoid injury due to accumulated mileage - so at 65k / week I'll drop back to a recovery week of around 40k once every 2-3 weeks. This is mainly because I've struggled in the past with weekly runs beyond about 26-27k so I probably need a bit more recovery time at my age (56).

I had a coach for a time last year and she was keen on fast finish long runs, where you ramp up the pace from half way and end up finishing at MP, as well as periods of alternating paces during the run, but I'll save those for the later stages of marathon training I think and continue to try and ramp up more easily for now.

Yes, a lot of coaches are keen on fast finish runs, but I've always suspected they make me pick up niggles, so these days I keep it easy the whole way.

I've also been experimenting recently with cutback weeks, so every 4 or 5 weeks I run half to two thirds mileage, and in summer I go out on the bike too. I've not really noticed a lack of injuries with them to be honest, in fact my last niggle I actually picked up after a cutback week. My injuries tend to be associated with easy running - there's no pain when I run tempo or interval pace.

Edited to add: I've just check Jack Daniels' marathon plans for the long run. He's got several, from which you can choose one based on your preference. If I get a marathon entry I thought I'd do his 5 week one, because it retains the speed work necessary for my 10ks, but he caps long runs at the lesser of 25% or 2 hours, so even if I increased to 100km a week I'd still only run 25km. His other plans for experienced runners all go over 30km on the long runs.

Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 5th November 12:05

[webstercivet]

smn159 said:

What does your weekly long run look like at 90Km / week Rob? I started using Runalyze recently and imported all of my data from Garmin... it's telling me that to achieve my marathon predicted time I should be running 75km / week with a weekly long run of 27k consistently for a period of 6 months - so a bit of work for me to do!!!

Runalyze looks interesting, thanks for the pointer.

Unfortunately no automatic sync with Strava, but could bulk export GPXes from Strava and manually import in Runalyze. Just wondering if it's worth the faff -- do you find Runalyze's insights useful?

[smn159]

webstercivet said:

smn159 said:

What does your weekly long run look like at 90Km / week Rob? I started using Runalyze recently and imported all of my data from Garmin... it's telling me that to achieve my marathon predicted time I should be running 75km / week with a weekly long run of 27k consistently for a period of 6 months - so a bit of work for me to do!!!

Runalyze looks interesting, thanks for the pointer.

Unfortunately no automatic sync with Strava, but could bulk export GPXes from Strava and manually import in Runalyze. Just wondering if it's worth the faff -- do you find Runalyze's insights useful?

Do you have a Garmin? There's a facility to automatically upload your Garmin history/ sync new activities directly. I had a look because it looked interesting and have stuck with it as I like data and it has lots of it!

The marathon shape feature is the most interesting to me. As well as telling you what you could achieve, it also tries to set out what your training volume and long runs need to look like to get there. Otherwise it just presents the largely same picture as Strava / Garmin, but in (lots) more detail.

If you use additional running dynamics / Stryd etc, it can also present the data from these and show you trends over time

I like it, but it may not be for everyone

[webstercivet]

smn159 said:

Do you have a Garmin? There's a facility to automatically upload your Garmin history/ sync new activities directly. I had a look because it looked interesting and have stuck with it as I like data and it has lots of it!

The marathon shape feature is the most interesting to me. As well as telling you what you could achieve, it also tries to set out what your training volume and long runs need to look like to get there. Otherwise it just presents the largely same picture as Strava / Garmin, but in (lots) more detail.

If you use additional running dynamics / Stryd etc, it can also present the data from these and show you trends over time

I like it, but it may not be for everyone

Thanks, very helpful! Might give it a shot, the marathon shape stuff sounds good. No Garmin, I'm an Strava-on-Android peasant

[Parsnip]

Treated myself to one of those masochistic handheld "batter your muscles to bits" guns. Cannot recommend enough. Has made my WFH back and shoulders feel about 90% as good as they do after a normal massage and I can see it making a real difference to loosening off calfs and quads.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TaoTronics-Professional-M...

Was the one I went for - the "proper" ones cost a fortune and I'm less sure on the cheaper ones - but that's not to say they wont do the same job - I know some folk attach bits to a jigsaw, but as well as being deafening, cables and a jigsaw lying about isn't very feng shui.

I paid £80, which seems a lot, considering sticking a steak knife in your leg is free and probably hurts less, but it seems well made and is quiet enough to use while watching TV.

[Paul_M3]

Parsnip said:

Treated myself to one of those masochistic handheld "batter your muscles to bits" guns. Cannot recommend enough. Has made my WFH back and shoulders feel about 90% as good as they do after a normal massage and I can see it making a real difference to loosening off calfs and quads.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TaoTronics-Professional-M...

Was the one I went for - the "proper" ones cost a fortune and I'm less sure on the cheaper ones - but that's not to say they wont do the same job - I know some folk attach bits to a jigsaw, but as well as being deafening, cables and a jigsaw lying about isn't very feng shui.

I paid £80, which seems a lot, considering sticking a steak knife in your leg is free and probably hurts less, but it seems well made and is quiet enough to use while watching TV.

I'm normally very much in the "You get what you pay for" camp, but I from a technical perspective I really struggle to see the difference between a £100 and £500 percussion massager. (With the possible exception of noise or battery life, neither of which justify the price difference in my opinion)

I personally got this one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B085NTR26K/ref... but I imagine they're both very similar.

[Candellara]

I got this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Medcursor-Handheld-Percus...

Really good.

[Crasher242]

biggbn said:

Have always bought Salomon trainers as their 12 fits me very well, but tempted by a pair of Hoka this time (sense ride 3 v challenger ATR5) . Anyone advise me how Hoka fit in comparison, I know they are said to be wide around the toes/mid foot which I need. Both similar price at about £90, will be used combination of light trail/woodland running and road running.

Speaking from personal experience with Hoka's...I like them - comfy, but find they are a bit tight around/over the top of the foot - i'm a UK size 11.5, and my main running shoes (Saucony's) are all 12's and are a good fit.
My 2 pairs of Hoka's (Speedgoat Trails and Gavitoa Roads) are also 12s but feel tight.
If i go Hoka route again, i will try to seek out a wider fit (which they do not always carry in my size).

Hoka direct do a 30-day try and return option - worth giving it a go.

[webstercivet]

Crasher242 said:

Speaking from personal experience with Hoka's...I like them - comfy, but find they are a bit tight around/over the top of the foot - i'm a UK size 11.5, and my main running shoes (Saucony's) are all 12's and are a good fit.
My 2 pairs of Hoka's (Speedgoat Trails and Gavitoa Roads) are also 12s but feel tight.
If i go Hoka route again, i will try to seek out a wider fit (which they do not always carry in my size).

Hoka direct do a 30-day try and return option - worth giving it a go.

Yes I had to go for a wide in my Arahi 4s, having not needed wide fit before in Sauconys.

[sbarclay62]

With the gyms potentially closing up here next week, i'll be back out on the streets running to get some exercise in.

An suggestions for a belt/bag/chestbag to hold mobile phone and house keys, with winter (dark and rain) in mind?

Looking at the "FREETRAIN VR". Never heard of the company and not sure on the quality/gimmicky?

[lufbramatt]

Leave the phone at home, stick a door key in the zip up pocket that most running shorts have, or safety pin to the waistband ;-)

[biggbn]

Crasher242 said:

biggbn said:

Have always bought Salomon trainers as their 12 fits me very well, but tempted by a pair of Hoka this time (sense ride 3 v challenger ATR5) . Anyone advise me how Hoka fit in comparison, I know they are said to be wide around the toes/mid foot which I need. Both similar price at about £90, will be used combination of light trail/woodland running and road running.

Speaking from personal experience with Hoka's...I like them - comfy, but find they are a bit tight around/over the top of the foot - i'm a UK size 11.5, and my main running shoes (Saucony's) are all 12's and are a good fit.
My 2 pairs of Hoka's (Speedgoat Trails and Gavitoa Roads) are also 12s but feel tight.
If i go Hoka route again, i will try to seek out a wider fit (which they do not always carry in my size).

Hoka direct do a 30-day try and return option - worth giving it a go.

Thanks for the reply, I may just stick with Salomon, I'm not a serious runner, more an enthusiastic directionless stumbler but I do like having decent shoes

[sbarclay62]

lufbramatt said:

Leave the phone at home, stick a door key in the zip up pocket that most running shorts have, or safety pin to the waistband ;-)

Good shout with the keys but need the phone for some tunes

[popegregory]

sbarclay62 said:

lufbramatt said:

Leave the phone at home, stick a door key in the zip up pocket that most running shorts have, or safety pin to the waistband ;-)

Good shout with the keys but need the phone for some tunes

Door key in zip pocket, phone in armband and Bluetooth earphones for a few quid off amazon

[Paul_M3]

sbarclay62 said:

lufbramatt said:

Leave the phone at home, stick a door key in the zip up pocket that most running shorts have, or safety pin to the waistband ;-)

Good shout with the keys but need the phone for some tunes

It’s also nice to have a phone for emergencies, especially on a long run.

That’s why I bought a ‘prison pocket’ phone, although thankfully it fits easily in my actual shorts pocket...