The Running Thread Vol 2

[over_the_hill]

rastapasta said:

Afternoon all.

A couple of questions:

1. my wife started back running in November last after having our second child. she is now running around 30km per week and wants to do a half marathon in september. Now this event has also a full marathon and i am signed up for the full. is it worth trying to persuade her to do the full? Its two hours more and we will have the same amount of training done by then hopefully and she's done the distance twice before

2. is garmin connect as good as strava?? ie is it worth letting the strava sub lapse in lieu of using connect instead as the primary run tracker etc,

As a coach I would advise against this. If she is currently doing 30km a week that is less than 75% of the run/race distance. Her longest run is likely to be considerably less than the 30km. Trying to build from this to marathon ready (even at a level of finish and get over the line) in six months is a big ask. I would stick with the HM as she has a much better chance of being ready for that and is more likely to have a positive experience (even with some walking).

[cslwannabe]

10km round the golf course this evening - properly tough. Only started using it since Christmas and it’s great for training - very little flat stuff and a couple of long steep hills. Shame the golfers are going to want it back at the end of the month!

[mikewilliams79]

over_the_hill said:

As a coach I would advise against this. If she is currently doing 30km a week that is less than 75% of the run/race distance. Her longest run is likely to be considerably less than the 30km. Trying to build from this to marathon ready (even at a level of finish and get over the line) in six months is a big ask. I would stick with the HM as she has a much better chance of being ready for that and is more likely to have a positive experience (even with some walking).

Completely agree. Lots of people only do a marathon once due to starting under prepared.

[rastapasta]

over_the_hill said:

rastapasta said:

Afternoon all.

A couple of questions:

1. my wife started back running in November last after having our second child. she is now running around 30km per week and wants to do a half marathon in september. Now this event has also a full marathon and i am signed up for the full. is it worth trying to persuade her to do the full? Its two hours more and we will have the same amount of training done by then hopefully and she's done the distance twice before

2. is garmin connect as good as strava?? ie is it worth letting the strava sub lapse in lieu of using connect instead as the primary run tracker etc,

As a coach I would advise against this. If she is currently doing 30km a week that is less than 75% of the run/race distance. Her longest run is likely to be considerably less than the 30km. Trying to build from this to marathon ready (even at a level of finish and get over the line) in six months is a big ask. I would stick with the HM as she has a much better chance of being ready for that and is more likely to have a positive experience (even with some walking).

The marathon is in October, so if she does 30km a week she will have a bank of km ran in the interim, all things being equal and her remaining injury free. Her longest run will be 30-32km and she will do this prior with me as i am signed up for the full marathon. she has ran a marathon twice before, she knows what it entails, she just needs persuading, my question was as to whether its worth trying to change her mind, not a question of running plan, that was only shown to demonstrate that she has and will have the km done. i would say 30km per week is ample for marathon training when taken over a longer period of time.

[Parsnip]

over_the_hill said:

rastapasta said:

Afternoon all.

A couple of questions:

1. my wife started back running in November last after having our second child. she is now running around 30km per week and wants to do a half marathon in september. Now this event has also a full marathon and i am signed up for the full. is it worth trying to persuade her to do the full? Its two hours more and we will have the same amount of training done by then hopefully and she's done the distance twice before

2. is garmin connect as good as strava?? ie is it worth letting the strava sub lapse in lieu of using connect instead as the primary run tracker etc,

As a coach I would advise against this. If she is currently doing 30km a week that is less than 75% of the run/race distance. Her longest run is likely to be considerably less than the 30km. Trying to build from this to marathon ready (even at a level of finish and get over the line) in six months is a big ask. I would stick with the HM as she has a much better chance of being ready for that and is more likely to have a positive experience (even with some walking).

1. As not a coach - 6 months is a long time to have to play with for a good marathon build, especially if she already has two marathons in the bank in the past. I guess I would be less concerned about being able to do the marathon and more concerned on what she wants. I've got zero desire to do another marathon - the extra training that hoovers up free time being the main reason. Anything up to half is much more fun and you can squeeze training in around normal life, without needing those weekend killing long runs.

2. I use Garmin Connect linked to Strava (free) to log everything - I did upgrade to premium and didn't really use any of the features - especially not for running - the one thing premium offered was live segments on the bike, but as my head unit is from the dark ages, it doesn't support it. Garmin connect does everything well - and does it better than Strava in my opinion - other than the leaderboards.

[dirtbiker]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

For most of my patients if they haven't been supplementing or are of a normal weight I recommend a single day dose of 40-50,000iu and then 5000iu/day thereafter.

Decided that I should probably up my Vitamin D so have gone for 4000iu tablets and just taken 40,000iu this morning and will continue with 4000iu/day.

Never been tested for Vitamin D and have been taking 100% of the RDA as part of a multivitamin previously but living in Scotland probably doesn't help my case!

Back to running, not been out for a while as I'm back on my road bike, Zwift and MTB but will get out later this week. Still liking the adidas SL20s though!

[joshcowin]

Nice work Ross Smn and Csl

Over the hill what do you specialise in? Is there a website we can get more info about you!? I am only asking as I am currently following a garmin plan and feel that it is just a generic tick box exercise, might be good to mix it up?!

I tweaked my other hamstring today!! Sharp pain this time that went down the inside of my leg past my knee, now just a constant ache. I wouldn't mind if I was being an idiot but I did 1hour on the bike then 15 minutes running at a comfortable pace then started @ 4:15 per km 3 km in and bang stopped instantly and limped home.

I am starting to think that now I am running a good 15-20km a week at a higher pace my form may be off? I will be adding in some Joe Wicks type workouts going forward.

[over_the_hill]

joshcowin said:

Nice work Ross Smn and Csl

Over the hill what do you specialise in? Is there a website we can get more info about you!? I am only asking as I am currently following a garmin plan and feel that it is just a generic tick box exercise, might be good to mix it up?!

I tweaked my other hamstring today!! Sharp pain this time that went down the inside of my leg past my knee, now just a constant ache. I wouldn't mind if I was being an idiot but I did 1hour on the bike then 15 minutes running at a comfortable pace then started @ 4:15 per km 3 km in and bang stopped instantly and limped home.

I am starting to think that now I am running a good 15-20km a week at a higher pace my form may be off? I will be adding in some Joe Wicks type workouts going forward.

UK Athletics - Athletics Coach and Event Group Middle Distance and Endurance.
I don't have a web-site because like most coaches in athletics we do it unpaid so I do not have "services to sell"
People will come and train with my groups because they like the look of what I do and think it will help them.
I also work 1-1 with several athletes.

There is wealth of information out there and most of it is generally good although pretty generic. Typically training
plans for whatever distance for:

The beginner - mainly steady running with a hint of speed work - will get you across the line but might end up
walking a bit depending on background and how rigorously plan has been followed.

The improver - finished their first or first few events and wants to get a bit faster and perhaps run the whole distance.
Will introduce a little more structure to the runs e.g. tempo/threshold, the notion of a longer run and a structured
interval type session.

The Intermediate - confident in taking on events and knows they can finish. Probably runs reasonably regularly
and now has a definite time target in mind. Will introduce pace specific interval sessions, fartlek, longer long runs,
what pace on easy days etc.

Of course the generic plans can't account for individual differences e.g. sporting background or not, new baby so sleep deprived,
motivation for doing it, other stresses from life, how to best use the time available to you rather than trying to stick to "the plan"
(They also don't help much if you are trying to get female athletes under 17mins for 5k or 2:40 for a marathon)

What are you currently doing training wise and what are you aiming for ?

Edited by over_the_hill on Wednesday 10th March 14:35

[joshcowin]

over_the_hill said:

UK Athletics - Athletics Coach and Event Group Middle Distance and Endurance.
I don't have a web-site because like most coaches in athletics we do it unpaid so I do not have "services to sell"
People will come and train with my groups because they like the look of what I do and think it will help them.
I also work 1-1 with several athletes.

There is wealth of information out there and most of it is generally good although pretty generic. Typically training
plans for whatever distance for:

The beginner - mainly steady running with a hint of speed work - will get you across the line but might end up
walking a bit depending on background and how rigorously plan has been followed.

The improver - finished their first or first few events and wants to get a bit faster and perhaps run the whole distance.
Will introduce a little more structure to the runs e.g. tempo/threshold, the notion of a longer run and a structured
interval type session.

The Intermediate - confident in taking on events and knows they can finish. Probably runs reasonably regularly
and now has a definite time target in mind. Will introduce pace specific interval sessions, fartlek, longer long runs,
what pace on easy days etc.

Of course the generic plans can't account for individual differences e.g. sporting background or not, new baby so sleep deprived,
motivation for doing it, other stresses from life, how to best use the time available to you rather than trying to stick to "the plan"
(They also don't help much if you are trying to get female athletes under 17mins for 5k or 2:40 for a marathon)

What are you currently doing training wise and what are you aiming for ?

Edited by over_the_hill on Wednesday 10th March 14:35

Thanks for taking the time.

My aim at the moment is a sub 1:30 marathon. I cover the HM distance on my weekly long run a fair bit did the HM this week in 1hr 42mins obviously thats a relaxed pace (total run was longer than that 15ish I think). Total aim is to be able to run a decent HM whilst completing a half ironman.

A week on my current plan looks mostly like this

Mon - 30mins recovery run

Tue - am 30 mins recovery pm 1hr mixed pace usually around 5 or 6 km of tempo efforts in there

Wed - 45mins recovery or steady

Thurs - am 30 mins recovery pm 1hr mixed pace usually around 5 or 6 km of tempo efforts in there

Fri - Rest

Sat - 45 mins hills

Sunday - Long run 90mins minimum (2hrs easy then 30mins at HM pace, being the hardest long run session)

[over_the_hill]

Did you mean a sub 3:30 marathon ? (Otherwise Eliud, Kenenisa and co. are getting nervous)

[joshcowin]

over_the_hill said:

Did you mean a sub 3:30 marathon ? (Otherwise Eliud, Kenenisa and co. are getting nervous)

Half Marathon haha!!

[rastapasta]

joshcowin said:

over_the_hill said:

Did you mean a sub 3:30 marathon ? (Otherwise Eliud, Kenenisa and co. are getting nervous)

Half Marathon haha!!

Ill lend you my roadbike

[over_the_hill]

joshcowin said:

Thanks for taking the time.

My aim at the moment is a sub 1:30 HM. I cover the HM distance on my weekly long run a fair bit did the HM this week in 1hr 42mins obviously thats a relaxed pace (total run was longer than that 15ish I think). Total aim is to be able to run a decent HM whilst completing a half ironman.

A week on my current plan looks mostly like this

Mon - 30mins recovery run

Tue - am 30 mins recovery pm 1hr mixed pace usually around 5 or 6 km of tempo efforts in there

Wed - 45mins recovery or steady

Thurs - am 30 mins recovery pm 1hr mixed pace usually around 5 or 6 km of tempo efforts in there

Fri - Rest

Sat - 45 mins hills

Sunday - Long run 90mins minimum (2hrs easy then 30mins at HM pace, being the hardest long run session)

That looks like a pretty solid plan already and contains all of the elements. If you did 15'ish in 1:42 you are already there !
However, a HM at the end of a Tri is a different prospect to a straight HM. Your legs will feel as if they are detached from you
body after getting off the bike and starting running but let's just focus on the HM for now.

Sub 1:30 is about 6:50 per-mile

Assuming you are OK health wise and a reasonable weight

Long Run
Aim for around 12/13m regularly and throw in a longer 15/16m run once every 3-4 weeks.
I think 2:30 is a bit long for a HM unless you are planning to move on to a full marathon.
If you did a 15/16 last week and feel great this week then no harm in doing two in a row.
However, don't skip to less than once every 3-4 weeks. If you don't feel great just grind it out.
Pace for 15/16m - steady and comfortable - 8mins/mile or slower.
There is a lot of benefit in over distance runs as they build aerobic strength, build leg strength,
make you tougher, prepare the body for the closing stages of a HM. (It's usually the final
3-4 miles where people start to slide off the pace.)
Pace for the 12/13m runs can be varied and you already seem to be doing this (the 2:30 run)
Throw in some tempo pace longer runs - 1m easy to warm up then 3 x (2m at HM pace, 2m easy)
or 2m easy to warm up, 3m at HM pace, 3m easy, 3m at HM pace, 2m easy.
Other times just run it as feeling

Hills
Essential part of any endurance plan and deliver a lot of bang for the buck.
Two main types of session here - Kenyan Hills or Up/Downs
Kenyan Hills - continuous running ideally on a loop, going strong up and over the top then steady/recover back down and around to the start
Up/Downs - find a hill 200-300m long and run up strongly, turn around jog/recover back down (doesn't have to be the Eiger and need camp-ons
to get up it)
With Up/Downs if you are doing a set of e.g. 12, don't do 12 straight off. Split into e.g. 2 x 6 or 3 x 4 with a few mins easy jog
between each set. This will help you to keep the quality up on the efforts.
They don't have to be flat out sprints, just strong controlled pace (it's up hill so you will be working hard anyway), maintain a good arm action, try and stay upright and look forward/up so you don't hunch over forward (easy to do when getting tired) as this will close up the chest and drop the hips.

Recovery/Easy
Need to be easy (many people go too fast on their easy days).
This could be 8:30min/mile pace or slower
If you go too fast on the easy days there is a good chance they will become junk miles and then impact on the
hard days when you want to be going fast.

Intervals
These need to mostly be around 5k pace which for 1:30 HM will equate to 6:20 min/mile
e.g. 5/6 x 1km with 90 secs recovery
4 x 1 mile with 2-2:30 recovery
Shorter faster sessions aiming to get down to around 6:00 min/mile
8-10 x 600m with 200m shuffle jog in 2min
10-12 x 500m with 100m shuffle jog in 90 secs

Alternative to Intervals is a Threshold type run
Should be comfortably uncomfortable. Just about able to manage 2-3 word replies in a conversation
Will probably be just under 10k pace so for a 1:30 HM will equate to about 6::40 min/mile
1m easy warm 3-4m Threshold, 1m easy

Wed - try and get this up to 60mins but keep it recovery/easy pace

[joshcowin]

over_the_hill said:

That looks like a pretty solid plan already and contains all of the elements. If you did 15'ish in 1:42 you are already there !
However, a HM at the end of a Tri is a different prospect to a straight HM. Your legs will feel as if they are detached from you
body after getting off the bike and starting running but let's just focus on the HM for now.

Sub 1:30 is about 6:50 per-mile

Assuming you are OK health wise and a reasonable weight

Long Run
Aim for around 12/13m regularly and throw in a longer 15/16m run once every 3-4 weeks.
I think 2:30 is a bit long for a HM unless you are planning to move on to a full marathon.
If you did a 15/16 last week and feel great this week then no harm in doing two in a row.
However, don't skip to less than once every 3-4 weeks. If you don't feel great just grind it out.
Pace for 15/16m - steady and comfortable - 8mins/mile or slower.
There is a lot of benefit in over distance runs as they build aerobic strength, build leg strength,
make you tougher, prepare the body for the closing stages of a HM. (It's usually the final
3-4 miles where people start to slide off the pace.)
Pace for the 12/13m runs can be varied and you already seem to be doing this (the 2:30 run)
Throw in some tempo pace longer runs - 1m easy to warm up then 3 x (2m at HM pace, 2m easy)
or 2m easy to warm up, 3m at HM pace, 3m easy, 3m at HM pace, 2m easy.
Other times just run it as feeling

Hills
Essential part of any endurance plan and deliver a lot of bang for the buck.
Two main types of session here - Kenyan Hills or Up/Downs
Kenyan Hills - continuous running ideally on a loop, going strong up and over the top then steady/recover back down and around to the start
Up/Downs - find a hill 200-300m long and run up strongly, turn around jog/recover back down (doesn't have to be the Eiger and need camp-ons
to get up it)
With Up/Downs if you are doing a set of e.g. 12, don't do 12 straight off. Split into e.g. 2 x 6 or 3 x 4 with a few mins easy jog
between each set. This will help you to keep the quality up on the efforts.
They don't have to be flat out sprints, just strong controlled pace (it's up hill so you will be working hard anyway), maintain a good arm action, try and stay upright and look forward/up so you don't hunch over forward (easy to do when getting tired) as this will close up the chest and drop the hips.

Recovery/Easy
Need to be easy (many people go too fast on their easy days).
This could be 8:30min/mile pace or slower
If you go too fast on the easy days there is a good chance they will become junk miles and then impact on the
hard days when you want to be going fast.

Intervals
These need to mostly be around 5k pace which for 1:30 HM will equate to 6:20 min/mile
e.g. 5/6 x 1km with 90 secs recovery
4 x 1 mile with 2-2:30 recovery
Shorter faster sessions aiming to get down to around 6:00 min/mile
8-10 x 600m with 200m shuffle jog in 2min
10-12 x 500m with 100m shuffle jog in 90 secs

Alternative to Intervals is a Threshold type run
Should be comfortably uncomfortable. Just about able to manage 2-3 word replies in a conversation
Will probably be just under 10k pace so for a 1:30 HM will equate to about 6::40 min/mile
1m easy warm 3-4m Threshold, 1m easy

Wed - try and get this up to 60mins but keep it recovery/easy pace

Great Post thanks, I have read it a few times already! The hill training segment particularly that will really help! Thanks for spending the time writing that!

To be clear I did a 15 mile run with a 13 mile split of 1:42

Enough about me! Over the hill do you run yourself or just coach?

[over_the_hill]

joshcowin said:

Great Post thanks, I have read it a few times already! The hill training segment particularly that will really help! Thanks for spending the time writing that!

To be clear I did a 15 mile run with a 13 mile split of 1:42

Enough about me! Over the hill do you run yourself or just coach?

Even so a 13 mile comfortable pace @ 1:42 isn't a million miles away.
Also hope the hamstring clears up quickly. In general you will not lose fitness by missing a day or so if you get a niggle.
Don't try and push on through it to try and avoid missing a couple of days otherwise you might end up missing a week or two.
With experience you get a a better feel for what's serious and needs a break and when you can carry on at lower intensity.

Still doing some easy shuffling these days but not much competitive.
But having been at it for about 40 years it's not something you can easily "give up"
It also sets a good example to the troops !

[joshcowin]

over_the_hill said:

Even so a 13 mile comfortable pace @ 1:42 isn't a million miles away.
Also hope the hamstring clears up quickly. In general you will not lose fitness by missing a day or so if you get a niggle.
Don't try and push on through it to try and avoid missing a couple of days otherwise you might end up missing a week or two.
With experience you get a a better feel for what's serious and needs a break and when you can carry on at lower intensity.

Still doing some easy shuffling these days but not much competitive.
But having been at it for about 40 years it's not something you can easily "give up"
It also sets a good example to the troops !

"Even so a 13 mile comfortable pace @ 1:42 isn't a million miles away." - That's great to hear as I haven't really set a date of when I want to give it a go!

On my injury, extremely frustrating as its looking like at least a whole week of no running, I will try the bike tomorrow but gave it complete rest today! I am addicted to training so its very hard for me to not do anything for a day, however as you say I am going to have to grow up and learn that I will do more damage carrying on with a niggle! I would imagine I over train anyway as I usually bike 3-4 times a week and swim twice a week on top of the running, I am going to have to find a good balance.

This time I will ramp up slowly from injury something like 30-35-40-45-50 taking a leaf out of Ross's book and easing in slower than you want but probably what the body needs!

[webstercivet]

joshcowin said:

I am addicted to training so its very hard for me to not do anything for a day, however as you say I am going to have to grow up and learn that I will do more damage carrying on with a niggle!

Likewise, I find days off and lower-intensity weeks really tough (sounds a bit like a humblebrag but it's not). Need to break the mindset of "well if I can't run today I'll just mope around and eat my own bodyweight".

ETA: hill rep day today (first time doing them), then day off tomorrow (...), then 40K over Sat and Sun.

[joshcowin]

webstercivet said:

Likewise, I find days off and lower-intensity weeks really tough (sounds a bit like a humblebrag but it's not). Need to break the mindset of "well if I can't run today I'll just mope around and eat my own bodyweight".

ETA: hill rep day today (first time doing them), then day off tomorrow (...), then 40K over Sat and Sun.

I am the same, I also am not bragging I am still very slow

Hope the weekend goes well!

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

Easy 3.8 miles for me today, and I mean easy (average HR 135) immediately after a pretty tough but short bike session (16-17min warm up then 16 x 1min hard/1min off where my 1min power (controlled by my indoor trainer automatically) was around what I could sustain for maybe 6mins if I were to do it continuously). So a fairly productive morning.

I do have a little niggle on my left leg around my fibula head. I had it last Friday after my running session but I am not convinced it was that. I was fine after the session but later I went out to my car, as I stepped off the kerb at a slight angle I felt it and it's not been right since. Walking is fine, only notice it walking downstairs. Running I can feel it for about 15 seconds (as my left leg is trailing and then coming off of the ground) and then it disappears. It was not made worse by running over 8 miles Monday. It's no worse, definitely better than it was Saturday but improvement seems to have stopped. Not sure what to do.....carry on training or rest. If running clearly aggravated it then I'd stop, but it doesn't. My only concern is that it probably doesn't help, especially the fact I can feel it on starting running.

Rest day planned tomorrow anyway so will see what I feel like Saturday where I had planned for 2 mile warm up > 2x2miles off 90secs > 3mins > 1x1km then warm down. We shall see.

In other news, I found out my brother is close friends with a Nike ambassador, so they get 25% off everything. I am almost certainly going to get a pair of Vaporflys, but I'm thinking of waiting until the next generation is out, which should be within the next month or 2. Not sure whether I'll get the new version or the old version which may be even cheaper.

[Parsnip]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

In other news, I found out my brother is close friends with a Nike ambassador, so they get 25% off everything. I am almost certainly going to get a pair of Vaporflys, but I'm thinking of waiting until the next generation is out, which should be within the next month or 2. Not sure whether I'll get the new version or the old version which may be even cheaper.

It's still a chunk of change to spend on them - and I say that as someone who would preach about how fast the Zoom Fly's are for days - I imagine the vapor/alpha variants feel much faster still, but its roughly 1 pair of the uber Alpha/Vapor shoes to 2 pairs of the almost uber Zoom shoes. I'm going to be hanging on for a pair of the ZF4's once my 3's wear out - a nice happy medium of still quick, but not silly money. Still 25% of a huge number is a nicer saving than 25% of a smaller number - man maths in action.

If of course you can nab a pair - I imagine the 2's will sell out faster than a fast thing...