Wiggins - could this be a Similar issue as Lance A ?
Discussion
zarjaz1991 said:
garyhun said:
To the casual observer that’s seen as cheating.
Then the casual observer is wrong.Being clever with technical rules (such as F1) is palatable for many, increasing the performance of the body through drugs, is not.
I have no axe to grind or much knowledge as I’m one of those casual observers but it does leave a nasty taste in the mouth!
El stovey said:
Welshbeef said:
So 7 years of Tour de France without a winner
Now the real possibility of a further 3 if Wiggins is stripped.
What about those 5 Olympic Folds..... all stripped.
Should his OBE be removed too
His sponsorships should be removed
Demand recovery of winning prize money
Froome in the mix as well.
Basically cycling is proving beyond doubt to be a filthy drug infested sport with what appears to be winners happily lying for their own greed.
As people are trying to explain, they aren’t going to get stripped of their TdeF titles or Olympic medals or what ever else, because what they have done is within the rules, Now the real possibility of a further 3 if Wiggins is stripped.
What about those 5 Olympic Folds..... all stripped.
Should his OBE be removed too
His sponsorships should be removed
Demand recovery of winning prize money
Froome in the mix as well.
Basically cycling is proving beyond doubt to be a filthy drug infested sport with what appears to be winners happily lying for their own greed.
You’re welsh and you like rugby. Welsh rugby is rotten with doping, most of the uk athletes banned for doping at the moment are welsh rugby payers, save your disgust for them, cycling is doing loads to clean up the sport.
Team Sky haven't been demonstrated to have broken any rules. But they have apparently "stepped over an ethical line".
How is this any different to a football player rolling around on the floor faking injury in order to influence the referee to give a decision or discipline an opponent?
Lots of sports are awash with doping. Lots of teams are happy to dope within the rules when something new and not specifically excluded surfaces as 'performance enhancing'. Then WADA change the rules, amend the list, and off they go to look for the next new chemical advantage to be gained. Then it gets outlawed and repeat,ad infinitum.
I cycle, and I've played sport. Lots of sport. I've never taken drugs to aid performance, but by the same token I've never tried to pull the wool over a referee's (or umpire's) eyes. Judo, Boxing, Football, Rugby Union, Hockey, Softball, and now MTB Racing. Break the rules, make a mistake? Raise a hand, and apologise to your team mates, your opponent(s), and the match officials for sullying the game. Don't lie and cheat to ensure you escape censure, or to gain advantage. But then I wasn't playing at anywhere near the highest levels, and so the difference between winning and losing was usually limited to the tone of the post-match 'inquest' into what went right or wrong.
As a cyclist and follower of the big road races, it massively disappoints me to see that Team Sky's claims of 'riding clean' were hollow. But it doesn't surprise me. And lots of other Continental Grand Tour teams have been affected by similar issues during the same period, and worse too, by out-and-out illegal doping with completely banned substances.
Going back years, steroids and stimulants have been used in cycling. Should we be tearing down the Tommy Simpson Memorial on Mt Ventoux? Or at least not restore or repair it if the weather does this...
...to it again. After all, he was a World Champion in an era lacking any official doping controls, and a habitual (ab)user of amphetamines. But then again, if we start stripping the pre control era drugs cheats of their titles, perhaps the statues of Cecil Rhodes and his peers ought to come down too? Maybe the "snowflakes" are right after all?Team SKY did not cheat. The committee of MPs (and doping control agencies) have said as much. They just pushed as far as was legal within the existing framework of rules. Just as many individuals and teams have done in many and varied sports for as long as records have existed. The rules keep evolving, changing to meet the challenge of new equipment and pharmaceuticals being developed to exploit current rules and laws. It will ever be so while we have 'professional sportsmen and sportswomen'. The better they are, the more they earn, so they'll turn every trick they can to keep ahead of the competition. That's what Team SKY are "guilty" of. I don't like it, but it's not grounds for stripping people of their titles. If it leaves a sour taste, then what needs to happen is that the control regime for TUEs needs to be tightened up, and then the tighter rules applied with zero tolerance going forward. Or maybe we need to examine more closely whether Sir Roger Bannister had any nefarious assistance when he broke 4 minutes for a mile? Act quickly I say! If we're going to blacken the name of a British Athletics hero, we need to do it before he goes into the ground, not afterwards!
TL;DR? Team SKY didn't cheat. The MPs said as much. But cheating has been going on forever, in almost every sport. It happens, so either we need to re-examine every single athlete, in every single race ever, or accept it and concentrate on applying the rules going forward...
Edited by yellowjack on Monday 5th March 09:12
Yipper said:
Since they (relatively) cleaned up the sport, though, cycling has become much less exciting. Watching the TDF now is like watching my grandad on a Sunday bike ride. They should think about relaxing the drug rules, not tightening them.
The problem with this thread mainly is that its full of people that know very little about cycling beyond the TDF. One day races are still exciting. See Saturdays for example (google it).Ben Jk said:
Sky have broken no rules, just maybe pushed them ethically.
Bit of an over reaction on here I feel.
Nothing will get stripped from anyone. Reputations will be tarnished a bit maybe but ultimately they have won everything fair and square.
It all falls into the "marginal gains" philosophy of Team Sky.
To class it as "cheating" is naive. No rules were broken.
'Maybe pushed them ethically' is naive.Bit of an over reaction on here I feel.
Nothing will get stripped from anyone. Reputations will be tarnished a bit maybe but ultimately they have won everything fair and square.
It all falls into the "marginal gains" philosophy of Team Sky.
To class it as "cheating" is naive. No rules were broken.
Lets use the correct language here.
What Team Sky and BW chose to do did not break any rules.
What Team Sky and BW did was legal within the technical aspects of the rules.
To class what Team Sky and BW did as honest, is naive.
To class what Team Sky and BW did as cheating, is honest.
yellowjack said:
It's funny really.
Team Sky haven't been demonstrated to have broken any rules. But they have apparently "stepped over an ethical line".
How is this any different to a football player rolling around on the floor faking injury in order to influence the referee to give a decision or discipline an opponent?
Lots of sports are awash with doping. Lots of teams are happy to dope within the rules when something new and not specifically excluded surfaces as 'performance enhancing'. Then WADA change the rules, amend the list, and off they go to look for the next new chemical advantage to be gained. Then it gets outlawed and repeat,ad infinitum.
I cycle, and I've played sport. Lots of sport. I've never taken drugs to aid performance, but by the same token I've never tried to pull the wool over a referee's (or umpire's) eyes. Judo, Boxing, Football, Rugby Union, Hockey, Softball, and now MTB Racing. Break the rules, make a mistake? Raise a hand, and apologise to your team mates, your opponent(s), and the match officials for sullying the game. Don't lie and cheat to ensure you escape censure, or to gain advantage. But then I wasn't playing at anywhere near the highest levels, and so the difference between winning and losing was usually limited to the tone of the post-match 'inquest' into what went right or wrong.
As a cyclist and follower of the big road races, it massively disappoints me to see that Team Sky's claims of 'riding clean' were hollow. But it doesn't surprise me. And lots of other Continental Grand Tour teams have been affected by similar issues during the same period, and worse too, by out-and-out illegal doping with completely banned substances.
Going back years, steroids and stimulants have been used in cycling. Should we be tearing down the Tommy Simpson Memorial on Mt Ventoux? Or at least not restore or repair it if the weather does this... ...to it again. After all, he was a World Champion in an era lacking any official doping controls, and a habitual (ab)user of amphetamines. But then again, if we start stripping the pre control era drugs cheats of their titles, perhaps the statues of Cecil Rhodes and his peers ought to come down too? Maybe the "snowflakes" are right after all?
Team SKY did not cheat. The committee of MPs (and doping control agencies) have said as much. They just pushed as far as was legal within the existing framework of rules. Just as many individuals and teams have done in many and varied sports for as long as records have existed. The rules keep evolving, changing to meet the challenge of new equipment and pharmaceuticals being developed to exploit current rules and laws. It will ever be so while we have 'professional sportsmen and sportswomen'. The better they are, the more they earn, so they'll turn every trick they can to keep ahead of the competition. That's what Team SKY are "guilty" of. I don't like it, but it's not grounds for stripping people of their titles. If it leaves a sour taste, then what needs to happen is that the control regime for TUEs needs to be tightened up, and then the tighter rules applied with zero tolerance going forward. Or maybe we need to examine more closely whether Sir Roger Bannister had any nefarious assistance when he broke 4 minutes for a mile? Act quickly I say! If we're going to blacken the name of a British Athletics hero, we need to do it before he goes into the ground, not afterwards!
TL;DR? Team SKY didn't cheat. The MPs said as much. But cheating has been going on forever, in almost every sport. It happens, so either we need to re-examine every single athlete, in every single race ever, or accept it and concentrate on applying the rules going forward...
It’s morally wrong that is the issue. Team Sky haven't been demonstrated to have broken any rules. But they have apparently "stepped over an ethical line".
How is this any different to a football player rolling around on the floor faking injury in order to influence the referee to give a decision or discipline an opponent?
Lots of sports are awash with doping. Lots of teams are happy to dope within the rules when something new and not specifically excluded surfaces as 'performance enhancing'. Then WADA change the rules, amend the list, and off they go to look for the next new chemical advantage to be gained. Then it gets outlawed and repeat,ad infinitum.
I cycle, and I've played sport. Lots of sport. I've never taken drugs to aid performance, but by the same token I've never tried to pull the wool over a referee's (or umpire's) eyes. Judo, Boxing, Football, Rugby Union, Hockey, Softball, and now MTB Racing. Break the rules, make a mistake? Raise a hand, and apologise to your team mates, your opponent(s), and the match officials for sullying the game. Don't lie and cheat to ensure you escape censure, or to gain advantage. But then I wasn't playing at anywhere near the highest levels, and so the difference between winning and losing was usually limited to the tone of the post-match 'inquest' into what went right or wrong.
As a cyclist and follower of the big road races, it massively disappoints me to see that Team Sky's claims of 'riding clean' were hollow. But it doesn't surprise me. And lots of other Continental Grand Tour teams have been affected by similar issues during the same period, and worse too, by out-and-out illegal doping with completely banned substances.
Going back years, steroids and stimulants have been used in cycling. Should we be tearing down the Tommy Simpson Memorial on Mt Ventoux? Or at least not restore or repair it if the weather does this...
...to it again. After all, he was a World Champion in an era lacking any official doping controls, and a habitual (ab)user of amphetamines. But then again, if we start stripping the pre control era drugs cheats of their titles, perhaps the statues of Cecil Rhodes and his peers ought to come down too? Maybe the "snowflakes" are right after all?Team SKY did not cheat. The committee of MPs (and doping control agencies) have said as much. They just pushed as far as was legal within the existing framework of rules. Just as many individuals and teams have done in many and varied sports for as long as records have existed. The rules keep evolving, changing to meet the challenge of new equipment and pharmaceuticals being developed to exploit current rules and laws. It will ever be so while we have 'professional sportsmen and sportswomen'. The better they are, the more they earn, so they'll turn every trick they can to keep ahead of the competition. That's what Team SKY are "guilty" of. I don't like it, but it's not grounds for stripping people of their titles. If it leaves a sour taste, then what needs to happen is that the control regime for TUEs needs to be tightened up, and then the tighter rules applied with zero tolerance going forward. Or maybe we need to examine more closely whether Sir Roger Bannister had any nefarious assistance when he broke 4 minutes for a mile? Act quickly I say! If we're going to blacken the name of a British Athletics hero, we need to do it before he goes into the ground, not afterwards!
TL;DR? Team SKY didn't cheat. The MPs said as much. But cheating has been going on forever, in almost every sport. It happens, so either we need to re-examine every single athlete, in every single race ever, or accept it and concentrate on applying the rules going forward...
Edited by yellowjack on Monday 5th March 09:12
Akin to tax avoidance perfectly legal but people’s opinion has totally change.
I think this case all boils down to whether you believe that these athletes have athsma which requires the use of powerful weight reducing performance enhancing drugs?
The usual get out is "sport induced athsma".
There has now been an allegation by the report that it was NOT used for athsma control but for performance enhancement but without any evidence to back this up!
Lots of posters on here have been backing Team Sky to be whiter than white but the cyclists were thinking greyer than grey!
The usual get out is "sport induced athsma".
There has now been an allegation by the report that it was NOT used for athsma control but for performance enhancement but without any evidence to back this up!
Lots of posters on here have been backing Team Sky to be whiter than white but the cyclists were thinking greyer than grey!
From a report on team Sky's launch event in 2010:
[i] "Marginal gains
The thin blue line that runs down the spine of the team’s new jersey serves as a constant reminder of the narrow margin between winning and losing, success and failure and being good and becoming great.
While they are keen to play down the more revolutionary aspects of their philosophy, it remains the case that they are in a small minority of teams when they talk about having an entirely rider-centric programme. That is not the traditional way of running a professional cycling team, and it could be a breath of fresh air". [/i]
The thin blue line between cheating or not. In cycling, if it walks like a duck...
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/at-t...
[i] "Marginal gains
The thin blue line that runs down the spine of the team’s new jersey serves as a constant reminder of the narrow margin between winning and losing, success and failure and being good and becoming great.
While they are keen to play down the more revolutionary aspects of their philosophy, it remains the case that they are in a small minority of teams when they talk about having an entirely rider-centric programme. That is not the traditional way of running a professional cycling team, and it could be a breath of fresh air". [/i]
The thin blue line between cheating or not. In cycling, if it walks like a duck...
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/at-t...
okgo said:
Yipper said:
Since they (relatively) cleaned up the sport, though, cycling has become much less exciting. Watching the TDF now is like watching my grandad on a Sunday bike ride. They should think about relaxing the drug rules, not tightening them.
The problem with this thread mainly is that its full of people that know very little about cycling beyond the TDF. One day races are still exciting. See Saturdays for example (google it).Yipper said:
okgo said:
Yipper said:
Since they (relatively) cleaned up the sport, though, cycling has become much less exciting. Watching the TDF now is like watching my grandad on a Sunday bike ride. They should think about relaxing the drug rules, not tightening them.
The problem with this thread mainly is that its full of people that know very little about cycling beyond the TDF. One day races are still exciting. See Saturdays for example (google it).What do you think about the situation where youths develop into decent riders, then get a chance to join the pro ranks, but quickly find that they are trying to compete against seasoned drug fueled riders and then must fill their bodies with all sorts of junk just to keep up, let alone win? Would you want your children to take up that kind of sport or face that dilemma?
NoisyGriff said:
This smacks of the outcry over tax avoidance... essentially people staying just inside the rules to pay the minimum. That wasn't the fault of those minimising their tax bill, it was the fault of the rule-makers. The government's rules weren't up to the task.
On the face of it, cycling is the same - lax rules exploited by ruthlessly capable medic, managers and athletes.
However, in this case, this is a sport supported by the public and sponsored by companies that value their image. If I was on the board of Sky, I would not accept the 'it was legal, if not ethical' defence. I wouldn't want to be associated with the unethical use of drugs for a sporting advantage. It will be interesting to see how Sky respond to this.
For me, the whole thing stinks. My ire is not limited to the athletes and the team, but also to the ruling bodies. Professional support continues to provide role models that ultimately disappoint.
The other companies with which Sky's leadership and owners are associated had already done enough for me to form a negative opinion of anything to do with any of themOn the face of it, cycling is the same - lax rules exploited by ruthlessly capable medic, managers and athletes.
However, in this case, this is a sport supported by the public and sponsored by companies that value their image. If I was on the board of Sky, I would not accept the 'it was legal, if not ethical' defence. I wouldn't want to be associated with the unethical use of drugs for a sporting advantage. It will be interesting to see how Sky respond to this.
For me, the whole thing stinks. My ire is not limited to the athletes and the team, but also to the ruling bodies. Professional support continues to provide role models that ultimately disappoint.
If I did still spend a single penny piece with any of them, this would cause me to stop
However, I haven't since the phone hacking days and will not do, ever
Dr Imran T said:
Whatever the end result maybe for both Sky and Wiggins - I think in many peoples minds the damage is done.
Let's see how long Brailsford remains in his job and I think it won't be too long before Sky leave the sport.
It's a PR disaster which ever way you look at it!
Exactly. Let's see how long Brailsford remains in his job and I think it won't be too long before Sky leave the sport.
It's a PR disaster which ever way you look at it!
Same for Froome too.
Welshbeef said:
........
Huge risk to Wiggins now he needs to respond properly
What does Wiggins need to add that hasn't already been confirmed by the team he was riding for at the time?Huge risk to Wiggins now he needs to respond properly
Sky made a statement, and now this committee have found that there was no rule breaking. What they have done is attack Sky based upon some made-up perception of what is 'ethically correct'!
Who gets to set the ethical compass and decide what is ethically acceptable and what isn't?
The Sky team used the rules to their advantage, they exploited the loopholes in the rules which were available to every team to put riders on the podium, to put riders in a yellow jersey, and to win gold medals. On their ethical compass they were winning within the rules and that has been confirmed by the investigation.
Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff