2017 Lions Tour
Discussion
irocfan said:
Rhys Webb. - why? He's a 
TBH (ditto that for Biggar) Way worse than Ashton for tasteless antics IMO. Who instead? Care. At a push Laidlaw
Your joking right? TBH (ditto that for Biggar) Way worse than Ashton for tasteless antics IMO. Who instead? Care. At a push Laidlaw
Name one instance where he's shown to be a
? I've met him numerous times and he's a really down to earth guy?As for criticising Wales' performances of late and then judging individuals on that basis, just look at the coaching set up Wales have had since Gatland took on his Lion's duties. It's such a bad set up while the Lions are on, one coach turned down the head coach job for the summer, I know because he told me and also explained why i.e. he was expected to be Gatland's puppet!
I'm all for Gatland out, I think he's had his time, naming the likes of Laidlaw in front of Webb is taking the piss though. 60 minutes in who would you rather see on your replacements bench, Webb or Laidlaw? I think Webb will be a key player purely for the impact he will make from the bench.
Cheib said:
As a mate of mine pointed out by picking that many Welsh players for the Lions he's saying the Welsh team massively under performed in the 6N...so why the fk is Howley on the plane!
I don't think anyone in the world will disagree with this statement. He should stick to working on Ice Cream vans (Youtube "Howley Ice Cream Van" if you don't get this statement k is Howley on the plane!)Edited by Tuvra on Thursday 20th April 08:58
Some controversial selection choices but as someone else said it's quite difficult to offer an alternative that you can then justify. As an Englishman I think it's quite poor how the Scots only have two players in the squad and realistically neither may make the first test XV (Hogg has the best chance IMO).
I think mostly for me Scotland have proven to be a good team this past 6N who played well as a unit but lack the stand out individuals.Getting a good hiding from England took away a lot of their players chances too unfortunately.
I'd have taken Lauchburry over Lawes, but I'd also take him over Henderson and probably AWJ but I can understand the logic with AWJ because of his experience. I find Lawes to be a bit of a flat track bully who makes the highlight reels by putting in big hits on backs who are half his size. But then again he did have a good 6N.
I don't rate 1/2p but I do question how much of that is how he's been asked to play for Wales-in the last Lions test V Aus he showed what he can do going forward. But since he's like an NFL special teams player-great from the tee but then largely not seen doing much else in a game.
I'm not sure whether Farrell is being taken as a starting 12 or cover at 10. I don't think Sexton will last 3 tests (if he gets to the first). We're going to have to outscore New Zealand to stand a chance of winning (I know obviously) they will score plenty of points which is why we need a different kind of 10 on the bench hence I'd have preferred Ford or Russell over Biggar, but both have proven to be flaky, less so Ford at International level when the kicking responsibilities are taken away.
I think Jamie George was a good choice, he's only been kept out of the England starting XV because of Hartley being given the captaincy IMO. Te'o? Not had much of a run and don't see what he's done to get the nod ahead of others.
NZ is a difficult place to go where they're almost unbeatable. I think the biggest selection mistake was made with the head coach and some of the coaching team. I don't think they will come up with a game plan to beat the All Blacks. IMHO we only won the Australia tour coz they were dog turd.
Looking forward to the tour though.
I think mostly for me Scotland have proven to be a good team this past 6N who played well as a unit but lack the stand out individuals.Getting a good hiding from England took away a lot of their players chances too unfortunately.
I'd have taken Lauchburry over Lawes, but I'd also take him over Henderson and probably AWJ but I can understand the logic with AWJ because of his experience. I find Lawes to be a bit of a flat track bully who makes the highlight reels by putting in big hits on backs who are half his size. But then again he did have a good 6N.
I don't rate 1/2p but I do question how much of that is how he's been asked to play for Wales-in the last Lions test V Aus he showed what he can do going forward. But since he's like an NFL special teams player-great from the tee but then largely not seen doing much else in a game.
I'm not sure whether Farrell is being taken as a starting 12 or cover at 10. I don't think Sexton will last 3 tests (if he gets to the first). We're going to have to outscore New Zealand to stand a chance of winning (I know obviously) they will score plenty of points which is why we need a different kind of 10 on the bench hence I'd have preferred Ford or Russell over Biggar, but both have proven to be flaky, less so Ford at International level when the kicking responsibilities are taken away.
I think Jamie George was a good choice, he's only been kept out of the England starting XV because of Hartley being given the captaincy IMO. Te'o? Not had much of a run and don't see what he's done to get the nod ahead of others.
NZ is a difficult place to go where they're almost unbeatable. I think the biggest selection mistake was made with the head coach and some of the coaching team. I don't think they will come up with a game plan to beat the All Blacks. IMHO we only won the Australia tour coz they were dog turd.
Looking forward to the tour though.
a311 said:
NZ is a difficult place to go where they're almost unbeatable. I think the biggest selection mistake was made with the head coach and some of the coaching team. I don't think they will come up with a game plan to beat the All Blacks. IMHO we only won the Australia tour coz they were dog turd.
Gatland's style of play is outdated imo. I honestly believe the reason Townsend turned down the backs coach role was because his method is diametrically opposed to Gatland's.I think the 'I've just started my new job' reason for turning it down was a polite way of saying 'I can't work with his tactics'.
Smollet said:
CarlosFandango11 said:
El stovey said:
You can almost excuse his pro Welsh selection in the 2013 lions tour as Wales were playing well, but this time it's a very different situation, that squad should have a lot less Welsh players and certainly more Scots.
Which Welsh players shouldn't be going and which Scottish ones should be? Reasons why too.Biggar may not be amazing, but he's shown plenty more heart than Russell in recent times, and deserves to be on the plane by that measure alone.
As for Laidlaw, he's the 5th best #9 in the UK. Thus, he's not touring, captain or not (c.f. Hartley).
Watson/Tipuric and Barclay/Moriarty were much more marginal calls for me, and I'd have been happy either way TBH.
DocJock said:
a311 said:
NZ is a difficult place to go where they're almost unbeatable. I think the biggest selection mistake was made with the head coach and some of the coaching team. I don't think they will come up with a game plan to beat the All Blacks. IMHO we only won the Australia tour coz they were dog turd.
Gatland's style of play is outdated imo. I honestly believe the reason Townsend turned down the backs coach role was because his method is diametrically opposed to Gatland's.I think the 'I've just started my new job' reason for turning it down was a polite way of saying 'I can't work with his tactics'.
C70R said:
The same Russell who buries his head in the sand when games go against him (look at the England game - he was abysmal)? The same Russell who flatters to deceive when the game is going in his favour, but flakes under pressure? I just don't buy that he's world-class material at the moment.
Biggar may not be amazing, but he's shown plenty more heart than Russell in recent times, and deserves to be on the plane by that measure alone.
As for Laidlaw, he's the 5th best #9 in the UK. Thus, he's not touring, captain or not (c.f. Hartley).
Watson/Tipuric and Barclay/Moriarty were much more marginal calls for me, and I'd have been happy either way TBH.
Couldn't agree more on all counts. Russell is ok (at best) on the front foot but this is a guelling tour to NZ and nothing is going to be easy. He's nowhere near the calibre of player required for the job. In my view, the 3 outside halves selected are definitely the right 3.Biggar may not be amazing, but he's shown plenty more heart than Russell in recent times, and deserves to be on the plane by that measure alone.
As for Laidlaw, he's the 5th best #9 in the UK. Thus, he's not touring, captain or not (c.f. Hartley).
Watson/Tipuric and Barclay/Moriarty were much more marginal calls for me, and I'd have been happy either way TBH.
Watson and Barclay are very good players, just not quite as good as those selected ahead of them. It is close though.
TheGreatSoprendo said:
C70R said:
The same Russell who buries his head in the sand when games go against him (look at the England game - he was abysmal)? The same Russell who flatters to deceive when the game is going in his favour, but flakes under pressure? I just don't buy that he's world-class material at the moment.
Biggar may not be amazing, but he's shown plenty more heart than Russell in recent times, and deserves to be on the plane by that measure alone.
As for Laidlaw, he's the 5th best #9 in the UK. Thus, he's not touring, captain or not (c.f. Hartley).
Watson/Tipuric and Barclay/Moriarty were much more marginal calls for me, and I'd have been happy either way TBH.
Couldn't agree more on all counts. Russell is ok (at best) on the front foot but this is a guelling tour to NZ and nothing is going to be easy. He's nowhere near the calibre of player required for the job. In my view, the 3 outside halves selected are definitely the right 3.Biggar may not be amazing, but he's shown plenty more heart than Russell in recent times, and deserves to be on the plane by that measure alone.
As for Laidlaw, he's the 5th best #9 in the UK. Thus, he's not touring, captain or not (c.f. Hartley).
Watson/Tipuric and Barclay/Moriarty were much more marginal calls for me, and I'd have been happy either way TBH.
Watson and Barclay are very good players, just not quite as good as those selected ahead of them. It is close though.
Either way, in 9wks time I'll be hopping on a plane, and couldn't give a hoot who I'm supporting provided they are wearing red!
Re Scotland's low representation, they could perhaps have had a couple more in the squad, but they were purely 50:50 with the guys Gatland selected. From a Scotland supporter's perspective...
Finn Russell is too inconsistent and 'disappears' too often. Weakest defence of any Home Nations 10, which would be disastrous in NZ.
Greig Laidlaw wouldn't even get in the Scotland team but for his place kicking. Definitely the weakest 9 in the Home Nations.
Hamish Watson is (imo) unlucky. He's a match for Tipuric, but Gatland knows Tipuric so fair enough.
Jonny Gray was on the plane until the start of 2017 then he failed to stand out in the really big matches. He'll go to SA in 2021.
Sean Maitland toured in 2013 but he is reliable without being outstanding. Tommy Seymour deserves the place more than him.
WP Nel would have been a certainty but for his neck injury.
Huw Jones would have been an outside bet but for his injury.
Finn Russell is too inconsistent and 'disappears' too often. Weakest defence of any Home Nations 10, which would be disastrous in NZ.
Greig Laidlaw wouldn't even get in the Scotland team but for his place kicking. Definitely the weakest 9 in the Home Nations.
Hamish Watson is (imo) unlucky. He's a match for Tipuric, but Gatland knows Tipuric so fair enough.
Jonny Gray was on the plane until the start of 2017 then he failed to stand out in the really big matches. He'll go to SA in 2021.
Sean Maitland toured in 2013 but he is reliable without being outstanding. Tommy Seymour deserves the place more than him.
WP Nel would have been a certainty but for his neck injury.
Huw Jones would have been an outside bet but for his injury.
Tuvra said:
irocfan said:
Rhys Webb. - why? He's a TBH (ditto that for Biggar) Way worse than Ashton for tasteless antics IMO. Who instead? Care. At a push Laidlaw
Your joking right? TBH (ditto that for Biggar) Way worse than Ashton for tasteless antics IMO. Who instead? Care. At a push LaidlawName one instance where he's shown to be a
? I've met him numerous times and he's a really down to earth guy?sidicks said:
Finally bit the bullet and paid a ridiculous price for 2 tickets for the 1st test in Auckland and 2 tickets for the 2nd test in Wellington.
I don't think they will get any cheaper and IMO this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for me to see the Lions in NZ.
Jealous. I don't think they will get any cheaper and IMO this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for me to see the Lions in NZ.
Let's hope they can wrap it up in two then...
There's a great Radio 5 Podcast on the Lions Squad...bit of a beast as it's 90mins plus but some great contributors. Rowntree, Henry, Dawson, Hastings, O'Connell, Guscott, M. Williams and probably a few others I have forgotten.
Graham Henry reckons its the hardest tour that there's ever been! Apparently the All Black's are going to play for their provincial sides in the first few tour games.
Graham Henry reckons its the hardest tour that there's ever been! Apparently the All Black's are going to play for their provincial sides in the first few tour games.
Joey Ramone said:
Don't worry everyone, Howley is attack coach. So it's in the bag.
For the All Blacks, that is.
You don't need an attack coach if you intend to be an uber-South Africa (when they were good). For the All Blacks, that is.
Well, you do really but I doubt the Lions will be playing an expansive game. They don't have the time together to develop one and Gatland isn't that type of coach. It'll be all about power, physical domination and the set piece.
Edited by phil_cardiff on Sunday 23 April 06:55
phil_cardiff said:
You don't need an attack coach if you intend to be an uber-South Africa (when they were good).
Well, you do really but I doubt the Lions will be playing an expansive game. They don't have the time together to develop one and Gatland isn't that type of coach. It'll be all about power, physical domination and the set piece.
Which, of course, is a high risk strategy because the ABs wouldn't be the best team in the world if they couldn't cope with a bit of bish, bash, bosh. Well, you do really but I doubt the Lions will be playing an expansive game. They don't have the time together to develop one and Gatland isn't that type of coach. It'll be all about power, physical domination and the set piece.
Edited by phil_cardiff on Sunday 23 April 06:55
I'm quite concerned that we have the right players but the wrong coaching team
basherX said:
phil_cardiff said:
You don't need an attack coach if you intend to be an uber-South Africa (when they were good).
Well, you do really but I doubt the Lions will be playing an expansive game. They don't have the time together to develop one and Gatland isn't that type of coach. It'll be all about power, physical domination and the set piece.
Which, of course, is a high risk strategy because the ABs wouldn't be the best team in the world if they couldn't cope with a bit of bish, bash, bosh. Well, you do really but I doubt the Lions will be playing an expansive game. They don't have the time together to develop one and Gatland isn't that type of coach. It'll be all about power, physical domination and the set piece.
Edited by phil_cardiff on Sunday 23 April 06:55
DocJock said:
basherX said:
I'm quite concerned that we have the right players but the wrong coaching team
That hits the nail on the head.One thing Guscott said in the Podcast on R5 was that he reckons Farrell won't play at 12...it's Sexton or Farrell at 10 and probably Te'0 at 12 in his books. Reckons Te'O gets the nod because he's played again Sonny-Bill Willians a lot.
If you think about it playing Farrell at 12 means you're putting a lot of faith in Sexton staying fit (i.e. not getting taken out). Farrell surely plays 10 if Sexton isn't fit which then means disrupting the midfield. I don't see Farrell playing outside Biggar in Test's.
Also if you had a more traditional 12 in the Test team it would mean both the test and mid-week teams would play in a similar way.
phil_cardiff said:
basherX said:
phil_cardiff said:
You don't need an attack coach if you intend to be an uber-South Africa (when they were good).
Well, you do really but I doubt the Lions will be playing an expansive game. They don't have the time together to develop one and Gatland isn't that type of coach. It'll be all about power, physical domination and the set piece.
Which, of course, is a high risk strategy because the ABs wouldn't be the best team in the world if they couldn't cope with a bit of bish, bash, bosh. Well, you do really but I doubt the Lions will be playing an expansive game. They don't have the time together to develop one and Gatland isn't that type of coach. It'll be all about power, physical domination and the set piece.
Edited by phil_cardiff on Sunday 23 April 06:55
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