2017 Lions Tour

[Kermit power]

C70R said:

Hey. I'm not the one defending an ego here, unlike many. I'm trying to stay neutral in this, rather than grinding any particular axe.

For the record, if he didn't have a Lions series win behind him (and multiple Grand Slams), Gatland wouldn't have been close this time out. I'd have much preferred Jones lead the tour, but he wasn't in the frame (for right or wrong).

Trying to 'trip me up' and score points with anti-Welsh statistics (about a coach we weren't even discussing) is a bit tragic in truth.

How am I trying to trip you up? You're doing that all by yourself by claiming Cotter wouldn't have been a suitable coach to take because of his win ratio when the head coach has an inferior win ratio. I'm also not sure how I'm using "anti-Welsh" tactics?

[768]

DocJock said:

10. Cipriani

He's not made the Argentina squad even has he?

Not sure how he wasn't nailed on from the RWC.

[C70R]

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Hey. I'm not the one defending an ego here, unlike many. I'm trying to stay neutral in this, rather than grinding any particular axe.

For the record, if he didn't have a Lions series win behind him (and multiple Grand Slams), Gatland wouldn't have been close this time out. I'd have much preferred Jones lead the tour, but he wasn't in the frame (for right or wrong).

Trying to 'trip me up' and score points with anti-Welsh statistics (about a coach we weren't even discussing) is a bit tragic in truth.

How am I trying to trip you up? You're doing that all by yourself by claiming Cotter wouldn't have been a suitable coach to take because of his win ratio when the head coach has an inferior win ratio. I'm also not sure how I'm using "anti-Welsh" tactics?

We weren't even discussing Gatland, about whom we're somewhat in agreement. Your entire agenda has been anti-welsh, so it stands to reason you'd object to a Welsh coach (in spite of his record).

Trying to make a case for an unsociable coach (words of former colleagues/players) with a ~50% win-rate and zero international honours in his career to tour is farcical.

[Kermit power]

C70R said:

Your entire agenda has been anti-welsh, so it stands to reason you'd object to a Welsh coach (in spite of his record).

Could you help me out here and point me to any posts where I've expressed any opinion at all about the Welsh so I can try to figure out which parts of them are giving rise to your delusion? Feel free to look in other threads as well if you like. You'll find plenty of posts suggesting kicking Italy out of the Six Nations to give Georgia a shot, but I'm waiting on the edge of my chair to find out where my anti-Welsh agenda is.

C70R said:

Trying to make a case for an unsociable coach (words of former colleagues/players) with a ~50% win-rate and zero international honours in his career to tour is farcical.

I wasn't trying to make a case for the inclusion of Cotter. I was just employing a bit of pedantry to try and wind you up a bit because your condescending, arrogant habit of telling people they don't understand enough about the game to comment on it (despite the fact that you know nothing about their rugby background and haven't exactly posted up a photo of a can of Birds finest surrounded by your international caps) rather invites that sort of response.

Much as I love watching the game and helping to coach my lad as he gets into it, I'd never claim your apparently immense knowledge of the finer points of the game, btw, as I never played the game, and barely even knew it existed before the age of 19 when I went to Uni in Wales. At that point, rugby was always going to be a bit of a Marmite experience, and given that I came back loving it, I'm looking forward to hearing where you think I've got this anti-Welsh agenda from.

[irocfan]

768 said:

DocJock said:

10. Cipriani

He's not made the Argentina squad even has he?

Not sure how he wasn't nailed on from the RWC.

Another big fan here - however he's going to be another Stuart Barnes. IMO a lot better than Ford (as SB was compared to Squeeky) but, unlike SB, probably too much baggage

[C70R]

Kermit power said:

I was just employing a bit of pedantry to try and wind you up

Oh. I thought we were having a discussion.

[Kermit power]

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

I was just employing a bit of pedantry to try and wind you up

Oh. I thought we were having a discussion.

Loads of other people on this thread are having a discussion. You mostly seem to be more interested in telling them how much more you know about rugby than they do.

[C70R]

irocfan said:

768 said:

DocJock said:

10. Cipriani

He's not made the Argentina squad even has he?

Not sure how he wasn't nailed on from the RWC.

Another big fan here - however he's going to be another Stuart Barnes. IMO a lot better than Ford (as SB was compared to Squeeky) but, unlike SB, probably too much baggage

Agreed.
He's flattered by a dominant pack, meaning he can stand flat and take the ball to the line, bringing his options onto it at pace. Without pack dominance, he struggles, much like Russell and Ford. There's also no escaping that his defence is poor, and you simply can't have such a liability (no matter how you mitigate for it) in high profile games - remember England moving Worsley into his channel against Wales? Watch the Leinster game back, and look at how rudderless he was without quick ball - he ends up resorting to low-percentage plays (grubbers, miss-passes) that don't come off. That was a bad call by Dai Young - it was a game for a percentage player like Gopperth to start.

High quality out-halves like Sexton and Farrell (yes, he's a 10) are able to keep defences honest without needing to stand flat, because they rely on intelligence and reading of the game. Cipriani is too dependent on instinct and skill, which is amazing when it comes off, but he looks like a clown when it doesn't. He's England's Quade Cooper, but with less raw talent.

[C70R]

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

I was just employing a bit of pedantry to try and wind you up

Oh. I thought we were having a discussion.

Loads of other people on this thread are having a discussion. You mostly seem to be more interested in telling them how much more you know about rugby than they do.

I tried to make the point that people bemoaning the selection of Welsh players at the expense of Scots (and Launchbury) was utter tosh. When you have people who are allegedly watching rugby regularly saying that only a small handful of Welsh players should be touring, it's easy to get the impression that they are just checking in on the results.

[Kermit power]

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

I was just employing a bit of pedantry to try and wind you up

Oh. I thought we were having a discussion.

Loads of other people on this thread are having a discussion. You mostly seem to be more interested in telling them how much more you know about rugby than they do.

I tried to make the point that people bemoaning the selection of Welsh players at the expense of Scots (and Launchbury) was utter tosh. When you have people who are allegedly watching rugby regularly saying that only a small handful of Welsh players should be touring, it's easy to get the impression that they are just checking in on the results.

You might want to read people's posts more comprehensively before posting your own then, given that you've resorted to accusing me of having an anti-Welsh agenda when I hadn't commented one way or the other on the selection of any Welsh players!

[C70R]

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

C70R said:

Kermit power said:

I was just employing a bit of pedantry to try and wind you up

Oh. I thought we were having a discussion.

Loads of other people on this thread are having a discussion. You mostly seem to be more interested in telling them how much more you know about rugby than they do.

I tried to make the point that people bemoaning the selection of Welsh players at the expense of Scots (and Launchbury) was utter tosh. When you have people who are allegedly watching rugby regularly saying that only a small handful of Welsh players should be touring, it's easy to get the impression that they are just checking in on the results.

You might want to read people's posts more comprehensively before posting your own then, given that you've resorted to accusing me of having an anti-Welsh agenda when I hadn't commented one way or the other on the selection of any Welsh players!

My apologies - I misattributed someone else's comments to you.

Either way, I don't know why you'd "try and wind me up" on this - not least when it made you look like a wally when I agreed with you. We were discussing Cotter, he would be a poor choice, surely that's where the discussion ends.

[DocJock]

C70R said:

I tried to make the point that people bemoaning the selection of Welsh players at the expense of Scots (and Launchbury) was utter tosh. When you have people who are allegedly watching rugby regularly saying that only a small handful of Welsh players should be touring, it's easy to get the impression that they are just checking in on the results.

Meaning this in a helpful way, it's not the point you're making which is raising hackles, but the way you make it.

Whether it's meant or not, some of them come across as containing a fair bit of condescension and hubris, which is never good in a discussion.

[C70R]

Apologies if it's misconstrued, but it's a sign of frustration at people not understanding the selection process, and getting overly emotive about 'their' players not making the cut. The Lions is a massively emotional subject for proper fans (I consider myself one, and have put my money where my mouth/heart is this year!), but it doesn't help when the conversation is so focused on such divisive issues - it's a rare opportunity in professional sport (outside of the Ryder Cup I can't think of another example) for countries to come together for a common goal.

[DocJock]

[London424]

I'm still not buying that of Lawes, Launchberry and AWJ that you consider Lawes and Launch the most like for like.

The most obvious like for like there is Launch and AWJ it can't just be me that thinks that?!

[DocJock]

No, I agree. I see Lawes as more like Itoje.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

London424 said:

I'm still not buying that of Lawes, Launchberry and AWJ that you consider Lawes and Launch the most like for like.

The most obvious like for like there is Launch and AWJ it can't just be me that thinks that?!

Did you watch the link to the NZ rugby show somebody posted yesterday? In that they were talking about Launchbury and made the point that even if there is an injury at second row, Launchbury is unlikely to be called up. That's for the simple reason that Kruis and AWJ are the only line out callers in the squad, so it's more likely that Devin Toner would get the nod, especially if it was Kruis or AWJ that needed replacing.

If, for reasons that frankly baffle me, you didn't want to select AWJ, you wouldn't have the option of replacing him with Launchbury, you'd be looking at someone like Toner and who in their right mind would make that call?

[London424]

TheGreatSoprendo said:

London424 said:

I'm still not buying that of Lawes, Launchberry and AWJ that you consider Lawes and Launch the most like for like.

The most obvious like for like there is Launch and AWJ it can't just be me that thinks that?!

Did you watch the link to the NZ rugby show somebody posted yesterday? In that they were talking about Launchbury and made the point that even if there is an injury at second row, Launchbury is unlikely to be called up. That's for the simple reason that Kruis and AWJ are the only line out callers in the squad, so it's more likely that Devin Toner would get the nod, especially if it was Kruis or AWJ that needed replacing.

If, for reasons that frankly baffle me, you didn't want to select AWJ, you wouldn't have the option of replacing him with Launchbury, you'd be looking at someone like Toner and who in their right mind would make that call?

Haven't had a chance yet but Who called the line out for England in this six nations? (I honestly don't know)

ETA: just found that it was Itoji. So that's that argument out the window somewhat, especially as Borthwick is the forwards coach.

Edited by London424 on Friday 28th April 13:50

Edited by London424 on Friday 28th April 13:52

[DocJock]

Calling the lineouts is not exactly rocket science, requiring years of experience. In fact there is no need for it to be one of the locks at all.

There is a very good argument for the thrower to call the moves.

[768]

I'm baffled that anyone wouldn't take Launchbury because he hasn't been calling lineouts.