General rugby thread
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Alternative view:Quins making it look like a bunch of senior players decided not to bother playing for a bloke they didn't agree with.
I'm all for player leadership, but going out and giving a half-arsed performance because you disagree with the coach devalues the shirt hugely. Very football-esque.
C70R said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Alternative view:Quins making it look like a bunch of senior players decided not to bother playing for a bloke they didn't agree with.
I'm all for player leadership, but going out and giving a half-arsed performance because you disagree with the coach devalues the shirt hugely. Very football-esque.
Yes, there have been patches of inconsistency, but having watched every game this season, the only one where you could fairly level that accusation against them was the Racing game, and yes, in that, they were almost universally woeful for the entire match.
Which senior players do you think have been deliberately playing poorly, and why? The pack has been on top of the Prem stats (unusually for us!) for most of the season, and Baldwin had really come on song in the lineout before Gustard went, meaning the stats have rocketed there, and you certainly can't accuse Dombrandt or Evans of coasting in open play with their stats for the season, so hard to single anyone out in the forwards.
As for the backs, Danny Care, Mike Brown and the Chis brothers all had contracts ending this year, so would've been daft to try and play any games. All but Brown have now renewed, and Brown certainly hasn't been playing like a man looking for the exit!
The only "senior" player that I think you could level the consistent criticism at was Chris Ashton, but he's an utter bell-end with a massively over-inflated ego anyway, so we're well shot of him and his whining about "not being given the ball", when Murley and Earle were making him look like the lazy tosser he is coming in looking for work and running massively more yards than him.
My view is that two things happened in the first part of the season - firstly, not maybe enough injuries in any one position to be glaringly obvious, but enough across the board that we were never able to field a really strong side, and certainly never in with a shout of the Irish-style 300 caps on the bench!
Secondly, yes, I really do think Gustard's approach was making people miserable. At that level of rugby, even a 5% difference in performance can make a night and day difference to the end result, and I think it showed. I think it's unjustified to say that anyone was deliberately holding back, and the Stats don't support that view either, but just a seemingly small change, and Marcus being freed up to play even more as he sees it seems to have made all the difference.
Kermit power said:
C70R said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Alternative view:Quins making it look like a bunch of senior players decided not to bother playing for a bloke they didn't agree with.
I'm all for player leadership, but going out and giving a half-arsed performance because you disagree with the coach devalues the shirt hugely. Very football-esque.
Do you have some kind of alert set up for criticism of Quins on this thread?
Do you really think that "5%" was responsible for the absolute (and club record) humpings at home by Exeter and Racing?
Was it really responsible for the epic indiscipline that blighted the end of last season and early part of this one?
Was it really responsible for Care going from looking bang average to a world-beater in the space of 2 weeks?
Edited by C70R on Tuesday 23 February 12:35
C70R said:
Kermit power said:
C70R said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Alternative view:Quins making it look like a bunch of senior players decided not to bother playing for a bloke they didn't agree with.
I'm all for player leadership, but going out and giving a half-arsed performance because you disagree with the coach devalues the shirt hugely. Very football-esque.
Do you have some kind of alert set up for criticism of Quins on this thread?
Do you really think that "5%" was responsible for the absolute (and club record) humpings at home by Exeter and Racing?
Was it really responsible for the epic indiscipline that blighted the end of last season and early part of this one?
Was it really responsible for Care going from looking bang average to a world-beater in the space of 2 weeks?
I already said that the Racing performance was the one where they really looked en masse as though the just didn't want to be there.
In the Exeter match, the score was 3-7 at half-time, and Quins were well in the game for most of it. Exeter ran in 21 of their 33 points in the last 10 minutes, before then going on to win their next two fixtures by 40-3 and 35-13, so Quins' performance certainly doesn't look out of the ordinary, and the fact that they went on to the win their own next two Prem fixtures 49-29 and 34-24, both away from home also doesn't really smack of senior players not trying.
As for what was responsible for the penalties, who knows? Do you think it more or less likely that people will concede penalties if they're being asked to play a style of game that doesn't come naturally to them?
You seem to be coming down to Danny Care apparently not performing. What reason do you have to think he was deliberately choosing to play poorly (whilst also negotiating his contract renewal) in some sort of Machiavellian plot to get Gustard out, rather than struggling to perform under Gustard's game plan? Have you never had a bad boss? Did you always feel you were able to perform at your peak whilst working for a bad boss?
It feels as though you're just trying to rake up some mud through speculation. I'm not sure why though?
Kermit power said:
C70R said:
Kermit power said:
C70R said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Alternative view:Quins making it look like a bunch of senior players decided not to bother playing for a bloke they didn't agree with.
I'm all for player leadership, but going out and giving a half-arsed performance because you disagree with the coach devalues the shirt hugely. Very football-esque.
Do you have some kind of alert set up for criticism of Quins on this thread?
Do you really think that "5%" was responsible for the absolute (and club record) humpings at home by Exeter and Racing?
Was it really responsible for the epic indiscipline that blighted the end of last season and early part of this one?
Was it really responsible for Care going from looking bang average to a world-beater in the space of 2 weeks?
I already said that the Racing performance was the one where they really looked en masse as though the just didn't want to be there.
In the Exeter match, the score was 3-7 at half-time, and Quins were well in the game for most of it. Exeter ran in 21 of their 33 points in the last 10 minutes, before then going on to win their next two fixtures by 40-3 and 35-13, so Quins' performance certainly doesn't look out of the ordinary, and the fact that they went on to the win their own next two Prem fixtures 49-29 and 34-24, both away from home also doesn't really smack of senior players not trying.
As for what was responsible for the penalties, who knows? Do you think it more or less likely that people will concede penalties if they're being asked to play a style of game that doesn't come naturally to them?
You seem to be coming down to Danny Care apparently not performing. What reason do you have to think he was deliberately choosing to play poorly (whilst also negotiating his contract renewal) in some sort of Machiavellian plot to get Gustard out, rather than struggling to perform under Gustard's game plan? Have you never had a bad boss? Did you always feel you were able to perform at your peak whilst working for a bad boss?
It feels as though you're just trying to rake up some mud through speculation. I'm not sure why though?
Given the hilarious double-talk that came out of the press release around "fit" and "culture", do you really just believe that it was his coaching style that caused the poor performances? Do you really believe that a new coach, with absolutely zero pedigree, could immediately turn a disinterested, ill-disciplined bunch into the world-beaters who hammered Sale this weekend?
Given that none of us know what's actually gone on at Quins, and that there were well-circulated rumours of player revolts (including Brown and Care making their intentions clear), surely it's worth a discussion?
You seem very tetchy/defensive on the subject of any criticism of Quins or their players. It feels more like having a conversation with a football fan, rather than a rugby fan.
Edited by C70R on Tuesday 23 February 16:27
C70R said:
I'm just sharing another possible side to the story, that you seem very keen to dismiss rather than discuss.
Given the hilarious double-talk that came out of the press release around "fit" and "culture", do you really just believe that it was his coaching style that caused the poor performances? Do you really believe that a new coach, with absolutely zero pedigree, could immediately turn a disinterested, ill-disciplined bunch into the world-beaters who hammered Sale this weekend?
Given that none of us know what's actually gone on at Quins, and that there were well-circulated rumours of player revolts (including Brown and Care making their intentions clear), surely it's worth a discussion?
You seem very tetchy/defensive on the subject of any criticism of Quins or their players. It feels more like having a conversation with a football fan, rather than a rugby fan.
I don't think I'm being particularly tetchy or defensive, just taking issue with stuff that is highly questionable at best, and demonstrably wrong at worst.Given the hilarious double-talk that came out of the press release around "fit" and "culture", do you really just believe that it was his coaching style that caused the poor performances? Do you really believe that a new coach, with absolutely zero pedigree, could immediately turn a disinterested, ill-disciplined bunch into the world-beaters who hammered Sale this weekend?
Given that none of us know what's actually gone on at Quins, and that there were well-circulated rumours of player revolts (including Brown and Care making their intentions clear), surely it's worth a discussion?
You seem very tetchy/defensive on the subject of any criticism of Quins or their players. It feels more like having a conversation with a football fan, rather than a rugby fan.
Who, for example, is this "new coach with zero pedigree" that you refer to?
Quins haven't appointed anyone new, experienced or otherwise! They've asked Billy Millard to step in, and he's neither new (been at the club since 2018) nor inexperienced, having been amongst other things Head Coach of the Melbourne Rebels and the Aussie Sevens team in the past.
All that seems to have happened as far as I can see is that the guy who dictates the strategy has left, the strategy has changed and the players are enjoying themselves. I don't believe that this mysterious group of senior players was deliberately seeking to undermine Gustard at all. I just think the culture all comes from the top, and if it's not working, the buck stops at the top.
Kermit power said:
C70R said:
I'm just sharing another possible side to the story, that you seem very keen to dismiss rather than discuss.
Given the hilarious double-talk that came out of the press release around "fit" and "culture", do you really just believe that it was his coaching style that caused the poor performances? Do you really believe that a new coach, with absolutely zero pedigree, could immediately turn a disinterested, ill-disciplined bunch into the world-beaters who hammered Sale this weekend?
Given that none of us know what's actually gone on at Quins, and that there were well-circulated rumours of player revolts (including Brown and Care making their intentions clear), surely it's worth a discussion?
You seem very tetchy/defensive on the subject of any criticism of Quins or their players. It feels more like having a conversation with a football fan, rather than a rugby fan.
I don't think I'm being particularly tetchy or defensive, just taking issue with stuff that is highly questionable at best, and demonstrably wrong at worst.Given the hilarious double-talk that came out of the press release around "fit" and "culture", do you really just believe that it was his coaching style that caused the poor performances? Do you really believe that a new coach, with absolutely zero pedigree, could immediately turn a disinterested, ill-disciplined bunch into the world-beaters who hammered Sale this weekend?
Given that none of us know what's actually gone on at Quins, and that there were well-circulated rumours of player revolts (including Brown and Care making their intentions clear), surely it's worth a discussion?
You seem very tetchy/defensive on the subject of any criticism of Quins or their players. It feels more like having a conversation with a football fan, rather than a rugby fan.
Who, for example, is this "new coach with zero pedigree" that you refer to?
Quins haven't appointed anyone new, experienced or otherwise! They've asked Billy Millard to step in, and he's neither new (been at the club since 2018) nor inexperienced, having been amongst other things Head Coach of the Melbourne Rebels and the Aussie Sevens team in the past.
All that seems to have happened as far as I can see is that the guy who dictates the strategy has left, the strategy has changed and the players are enjoying themselves. I don't believe that this mysterious group of senior players was deliberately seeking to undermine Gustard at all. I just think the culture all comes from the top, and if it's not working, the buck stops at the top.
He coached the Rebels for one season in a semi-pro championship before they entered Super Rugby, and has done bits and pieces of pen-pushing and specialist coaching at Connacht and Cardiff since.
If you are 100% certain that this guy's coaching has been the cause of the step-change in how Quins have been playing, and that there's nothing else at play, then our conversation should probably stop here.
Personally, I'm really not convinced. But you're welcome to your theories too, of course.
Perhaps we should avoid conversations about Quins or Quins players in future.
Edited by C70R on Tuesday 23 February 21:37
Rather than let a good argument die i'll pile in.....
I disagree with both of you.
And agree with both of you.
In reality its a bit of both.
Quins players (as do many teams players) have a history of phoning it in when they decide they want new leadership. They clearly decided this either consciously or subconsciously. Its reality - many of us will have worked in organisations where we disagree with the leaderships chosen direction, we may still turn up and do our job, but are we really giving 100%?
Gustard was then the unwitting victim of a bad attitude amongst senior players. Except, its his job to bring those players along or get them shipped out. Maybe it wasn't possible but that was his responsibility.
I disagree with both of you.
And agree with both of you.
In reality its a bit of both.
Quins players (as do many teams players) have a history of phoning it in when they decide they want new leadership. They clearly decided this either consciously or subconsciously. Its reality - many of us will have worked in organisations where we disagree with the leaderships chosen direction, we may still turn up and do our job, but are we really giving 100%?
Gustard was then the unwitting victim of a bad attitude amongst senior players. Except, its his job to bring those players along or get them shipped out. Maybe it wasn't possible but that was his responsibility.
iwantagta said:
Rather than let a good argument die i'll pile in.....
I disagree with both of you.
And agree with both of you.
In reality its a bit of both.
Quins players (as do many teams players) have a history of phoning it in when they decide they want new leadership. They clearly decided this either consciously or subconsciously. Its reality - many of us will have worked in organisations where we disagree with the leaderships chosen direction, we may still turn up and do our job, but are we really giving 100%?
Gustard was then the unwitting victim of a bad attitude amongst senior players. Except, its his job to bring those players along or get them shipped out. Maybe it wasn't possible but that was his responsibility.
That last paragraph nails it. Player leadership is a double-edged sword at times, but it's important to remember who holds (or, at least who should hold) the pen for hiring and firing.I disagree with both of you.
And agree with both of you.
In reality its a bit of both.
Quins players (as do many teams players) have a history of phoning it in when they decide they want new leadership. They clearly decided this either consciously or subconsciously. Its reality - many of us will have worked in organisations where we disagree with the leaderships chosen direction, we may still turn up and do our job, but are we really giving 100%?
Gustard was then the unwitting victim of a bad attitude amongst senior players. Except, its his job to bring those players along or get them shipped out. Maybe it wasn't possible but that was his responsibility.
The really interesting thing for me is the roles of Flannery and Evans. They've been a source of continuity throughout, yet the Quins team that thrashed Sale in the first half looked nothing like the team that limped through the second half of 2020.
What I hope is that we don't progress towards a football-style model where the head coach is basically a figurehead, who can be hired and fired whenever the players don't agree with them.
Edited by C70R on Wednesday 24th February 08:46
I remember this try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0czB96GX_Rk and not a lot else from the match.
Gary Halpin RIP https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0224/1198995-f...
Gary Halpin RIP https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0224/1198995-f...
C70R said:
Kermit power said:
C70R said:
I'm just sharing another possible side to the story, that you seem very keen to dismiss rather than discuss.
Given the hilarious double-talk that came out of the press release around "fit" and "culture", do you really just believe that it was his coaching style that caused the poor performances? Do you really believe that a new coach, with absolutely zero pedigree, could immediately turn a disinterested, ill-disciplined bunch into the world-beaters who hammered Sale this weekend?
Given that none of us know what's actually gone on at Quins, and that there were well-circulated rumours of player revolts (including Brown and Care making their intentions clear), surely it's worth a discussion?
You seem very tetchy/defensive on the subject of any criticism of Quins or their players. It feels more like having a conversation with a football fan, rather than a rugby fan.
I don't think I'm being particularly tetchy or defensive, just taking issue with stuff that is highly questionable at best, and demonstrably wrong at worst.Given the hilarious double-talk that came out of the press release around "fit" and "culture", do you really just believe that it was his coaching style that caused the poor performances? Do you really believe that a new coach, with absolutely zero pedigree, could immediately turn a disinterested, ill-disciplined bunch into the world-beaters who hammered Sale this weekend?
Given that none of us know what's actually gone on at Quins, and that there were well-circulated rumours of player revolts (including Brown and Care making their intentions clear), surely it's worth a discussion?
You seem very tetchy/defensive on the subject of any criticism of Quins or their players. It feels more like having a conversation with a football fan, rather than a rugby fan.
Who, for example, is this "new coach with zero pedigree" that you refer to?
Quins haven't appointed anyone new, experienced or otherwise! They've asked Billy Millard to step in, and he's neither new (been at the club since 2018) nor inexperienced, having been amongst other things Head Coach of the Melbourne Rebels and the Aussie Sevens team in the past.
All that seems to have happened as far as I can see is that the guy who dictates the strategy has left, the strategy has changed and the players are enjoying themselves. I don't believe that this mysterious group of senior players was deliberately seeking to undermine Gustard at all. I just think the culture all comes from the top, and if it's not working, the buck stops at the top.
He coached the Rebels for one season in a semi-pro championship before they entered Super Rugby, and has done bits and pieces of pen-pushing and specialist coaching at Connacht and Cardiff since.
If you are 100% certain that this guy's coaching has been the cause of the step-change in how Quins have been playing, and that there's nothing else at play, then our conversation should probably stop here.
Personally, I'm really not convinced. But you're welcome to your theories too, of course.
Perhaps we should avoid conversations about Quins or Quins players in future.
You seem to think some senior players ganged up to force him out for some reason. I think that people aren't going to be playing at their best if they're not enjoying what they're doing, and there's nothing more sinister to it than that.
I don't think our positions are as far apart as you think, beyond you claiming you think it was deliberate, and the players should go and play oikball instead, and me disagreeing with that.
Was it over-training, being overly prescriptive in game plans, making everything complicated, making it boring to play? I don't know, but I think if the senior players had chosen to rebel, they wouldn't have done it by choosing to play badly, they would've done it by chucking away Gustard's game plan and doing what they fancied on the pitch. I rather suspect that this is what Millard is letting them do now, but they have the added benefit of being able to train for it.
Ian Lancs said:
I remember this try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0czB96GX_Rk and not a lot else from the match.
Gary Halpin RIP https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0224/1198995-f...
55 Gary Halpin RIP https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0224/1198995-f...
f
k, that's no age. RiPIan Lancs said:
I remember this try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0czB96GX_Rk and not a lot else from the match.
Gary Halpin RIP https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0224/1198995-f...
Very sad indeed. He played for London Irish, worked with my Dad and coached at my old school, so was quite a figure in my life. RIP. Gary Halpin RIP https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0224/1198995-f...
Some really weird results this weekend!
Northampton put themselves in a position to absolutely thump Bath, then just took their foot off the gas and lost by one point.
Irish winning at Wasps wouldn't have been on the cards had it not been for their respective trajectories over the past month or so. Wasps haven't really been affected badly by callups, and that team should have been fairly comfortable at home. There's something not clicking for them at the moment.
Quins would have also been expected to be more comfortable against Newcastle after their post-Gustard renaissance. The scoreline almost flatters Quins a little - it could have been 21-7 half-time easily.
Northampton put themselves in a position to absolutely thump Bath, then just took their foot off the gas and lost by one point.
Irish winning at Wasps wouldn't have been on the cards had it not been for their respective trajectories over the past month or so. Wasps haven't really been affected badly by callups, and that team should have been fairly comfortable at home. There's something not clicking for them at the moment.
Quins would have also been expected to be more comfortable against Newcastle after their post-Gustard renaissance. The scoreline almost flatters Quins a little - it could have been 21-7 half-time easily.
The puzzling thing about Quins is why the hell we've not been playing Tyrone Green more often! This was the first time he's had more than about 5 minutes in a game, and not only can he score tries, it turns out he's also st-hot in defence! 
It was a bit or a weird strategy, I thought, to stick so much strength on the bench and try to keep in touch until they came on to turn the game around, but hell, it seems to have been working for Irish with their 300-odd caps on the bench, so why not?
t-hot in defence! It was a bit or a weird strategy, I thought, to stick so much strength on the bench and try to keep in touch until they came on to turn the game around, but hell, it seems to have been working for Irish with their 300-odd caps on the bench, so why not?
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