General rugby thread
Discussion
“Small Town Clubs” like Toulouse, Clermont, Leicester, Saracens, Toulon, Racing, etc?
Leinster haven’t won the competition in 5 years, and they’ve been trying to compete against the big boys for years, the clubs who just pay for the stars of world rugby to sign up. We’ve home grown our teams for decades now, with varying levels of success, and those players would be plundered in a flash by the French in particular if they had their way. Salaries in Leinster are good, but I would think most of our players would earn more in France
As for the other Irish provinces, primarily Munster and Ulster, unfortunately something is going wrong where the players coming out of their academies just aren’t making the grade. It’s particularly unbalanced at the moment, and nothing to do with salaries or preferential treatment as far as I know, but that’s why we see so many Leinster players making up the Ireland team. The IRFU needs to work with the provinces to refine the long-term plan, as the talent at schools level is surely there
Also, all the provinces have centrally contracted players, Munster have quite a few and the likes of O’Mahony and Murray would be on similar money to the Leinster ones, if not more
For me Connacht are probably the ones who are the most unfairly treated, and if it hadn’t been for the Pat Lam league-winning era they’d probably have gone to the wall by now
Leinster haven’t won the competition in 5 years, and they’ve been trying to compete against the big boys for years, the clubs who just pay for the stars of world rugby to sign up. We’ve home grown our teams for decades now, with varying levels of success, and those players would be plundered in a flash by the French in particular if they had their way. Salaries in Leinster are good, but I would think most of our players would earn more in France
As for the other Irish provinces, primarily Munster and Ulster, unfortunately something is going wrong where the players coming out of their academies just aren’t making the grade. It’s particularly unbalanced at the moment, and nothing to do with salaries or preferential treatment as far as I know, but that’s why we see so many Leinster players making up the Ireland team. The IRFU needs to work with the provinces to refine the long-term plan, as the talent at schools level is surely there
Also, all the provinces have centrally contracted players, Munster have quite a few and the likes of O’Mahony and Murray would be on similar money to the Leinster ones, if not more
For me Connacht are probably the ones who are the most unfairly treated, and if it hadn’t been for the Pat Lam league-winning era they’d probably have gone to the wall by now
Edited by Leins on Tuesday 4th April 09:43
Leins said:
On Leinster, nothing hollow about it at all from my (biased) perspective. We’re competing with local players on the whole, not bought in mercenaries/stars like Saracens or Toulon. Also, yes a lot of Leinster’s players are internationals, but quite a few of those are recent enough in breaking through
Every kid in the area who picks up a rugby ball wants to play for them, but you also need to remember that the population here isn’t huge, nevermind those who play the game
Think you may be surprised as to how many Sarries players come through the academy. Weekend game for instance:Every kid in the area who picks up a rugby ball wants to play for them, but you also need to remember that the population here isn’t huge, nevermind those who play the game
Itoje, Goode, Farrell, Earl, Isiekwie, George, Malins, Tompkins.
Christie was signed from Old Bristolians at a young age, the Vunipolas were also signed very early on in their careers. Sarries make many of their players 'stars' rather than just signing them.
mr pg said:
Think you may be surprised as to how many Sarries players come through the academy. Weekend game for instance:
Itoje, Goode, Farrell, Earl, Isiekwie, George, Malins, Tompkins.
Christie was signed from Old Bristolians at a young age, the Vunipolas were also signed very early on in their careers. Sarries make many of their players 'stars' rather than just signing them.
OK, possibly not fair to lump Saracens in with the French clubs in that respect, but then they had to break salary cap rules to fund the team and remain competitive. Leinster don’t have salary caps, but I don’t believe they pay over the odds either, there is still a lure in keeping our players here and it’s not all about being eligible to play internationallyItoje, Goode, Farrell, Earl, Isiekwie, George, Malins, Tompkins.
Christie was signed from Old Bristolians at a young age, the Vunipolas were also signed very early on in their careers. Sarries make many of their players 'stars' rather than just signing them.
One other point that gets lost is that we lose a good chunk of our players to that international duty, and have to rely on the new blood constantly coming through to plug the gaps for the league. We’ve lost our captain and arguably most influential player now for the rest of the season due to an injury he suffered playing for Ireland, so we have to rely on back-ups for the remainder of the league and European competitions
Exeter have won the Heineken Cup more recently than Leinster, so they can compete. Both Bath and Northampton are previous winners. I don't buy this idea that the competition needs to be made "fairer" to English clubs
Leinster are a very good team, well managed with a strong pipeline of players continuously coming through. Are some of those players better for having international experience? Then yes, they will be. But are you telling me that if the majority of say the Gloucester starting 15 were representing England they would become world class, I don't think that's the case
It's the Leinster Academy who are selecting these players and bringing them through, and at the moment the fruits of that are starting to be seen. However, a lot of the new breed (e.g. Doris, Keenan, Baird, J. O'Brien) haven't won much yet with Leinster because they weren't in the frame five years ago. If/when they do win they will deserve it for being brilliant Leinster players, coached well, and having beaten the best of the other European clubs. There will be nothing hollow with it from my perspective
Leinster are a very good team, well managed with a strong pipeline of players continuously coming through. Are some of those players better for having international experience? Then yes, they will be. But are you telling me that if the majority of say the Gloucester starting 15 were representing England they would become world class, I don't think that's the case
It's the Leinster Academy who are selecting these players and bringing them through, and at the moment the fruits of that are starting to be seen. However, a lot of the new breed (e.g. Doris, Keenan, Baird, J. O'Brien) haven't won much yet with Leinster because they weren't in the frame five years ago. If/when they do win they will deserve it for being brilliant Leinster players, coached well, and having beaten the best of the other European clubs. There will be nothing hollow with it from my perspective
ETA: Someone on the Quins supporter forum has pointed out that I made an error (a cell typo in my spreadsheet) for Quins' Tier 1 caps won by players who've played for their countries in the past 12 months. This should in fact be 64, not 35 as previously stated, and the overall total increases accordingly to 248.
As promised, I've had a trundle through the last team sheets for each English team in Europe, plus for sake of comparison,Ireland Leinster, Ospreys, Toulouse and Alun Wyn Jones all on his tod, because with 170 international caps, how can you not? 
Obviously this isn't rigorously statistically valid, given the absence through injury of players like Sexton who on his own would've come close to taking Leinster above Sarries, but it does give a good indication.
Overall, I was really surprised at just how few internationals Toulouse fielded (not sure if this was because if injuries, or if there's more representative French teams I could've put in instead, but they are topping the Pro14...)
So, overall, it looks like this...
However, as some people have said, there's a difference between players who've picked up a few caps a while ago and who are now cruising towards retirement as opposed to recently capped tier 1 international players, so here's the breakdown on those areas...
Caps won by tier 1 players who've played international rugby in the past 12 months. This obviously includes some ancient warhorses like AWJ who really have to surely be approaching the end of their careers, but if anyone wants to actually spend the time calculating the actual caps received in the past 12 months, they're welcome to try!
Then next we get the players who've won tier 1 caps, but not in the past 12 months. Joe Marler is an obvious example here...
Interestingly, there were very, very few players capped for Tier 2 countries involved anywhere. I had thought there would be a few Georgian props kicking around, or maybe the odd Samoan, but the only team with any T2 caps further than 12 months ago were Newcastle (67) and Exeter (69), with Bristol (61) the only club with any in the past 12 months.
As promised, I've had a trundle through the last team sheets for each English team in Europe, plus for sake of comparison,
Obviously this isn't rigorously statistically valid, given the absence through injury of players like Sexton who on his own would've come close to taking Leinster above Sarries, but it does give a good indication.
Overall, I was really surprised at just how few internationals Toulouse fielded (not sure if this was because if injuries, or if there's more representative French teams I could've put in instead, but they are topping the Pro14...)
So, overall, it looks like this...
However, as some people have said, there's a difference between players who've picked up a few caps a while ago and who are now cruising towards retirement as opposed to recently capped tier 1 international players, so here's the breakdown on those areas...
Caps won by tier 1 players who've played international rugby in the past 12 months. This obviously includes some ancient warhorses like AWJ who really have to surely be approaching the end of their careers, but if anyone wants to actually spend the time calculating the actual caps received in the past 12 months, they're welcome to try!
Then next we get the players who've won tier 1 caps, but not in the past 12 months. Joe Marler is an obvious example here...
Interestingly, there were very, very few players capped for Tier 2 countries involved anywhere. I had thought there would be a few Georgian props kicking around, or maybe the odd Samoan, but the only team with any T2 caps further than 12 months ago were Newcastle (67) and Exeter (69), with Bristol (61) the only club with any in the past 12 months.
Edited by Kermit power on Wednesday 5th April 11:01
Leins said:
OK, so one English premiership, one URC and two Top 14 clubs remain for the semis, all recent enough previous winners. Can we say now that the rules are fair and the competition is working?
I have no complaints other than the inclusion of the SA sides. I don’t think they bring anything and probably hold back European sides in this tournament Smollet said:
Leins said:
OK, so one English premiership, one URC and two Top 14 clubs remain for the semis, all recent enough previous winners. Can we say now that the rules are fair and the competition is working?
I have no complaints other than the inclusion of the SA sides. I don’t think they bring anything and probably hold back European sides in this tournament Leins said:
Smollet said:
Leins said:
OK, so one English premiership, one URC and two Top 14 clubs remain for the semis, all recent enough previous winners. Can we say now that the rules are fair and the competition is working?
I have no complaints other than the inclusion of the SA sides. I don’t think they bring anything and probably hold back European sides in this tournament the tribester said:
Didn't The Bulls spend 26 hours travelling to Exeter in an early round?
Not unless they either stopped off to visit their gran on the way or they chartered an aircraft that needed the rubber bands on its propellers winding up every 200 miles!Their stadium to Joburg Airport is a half hour drive, then you get an 11 hour direct flight overnight to Heathrow with nice, comfy flat beds, followed by a 3 hour coach journey to Sandy Park.
Even allowing for 2 hours at each airport and the odd caravan with a puncture on the A303 delaying you by another hour, you're struggling to take it over 20 hours, and you could probably do it faster than that via somewhere like Schipol to Exeter Airport.
It's really not a particularly onerous journey!
Kermit power said:
the tribester said:
Didn't The Bulls spend 26 hours travelling to Exeter in an early round?
Not unless they either stopped off to visit their gran on the way or they chartered an aircraft that needed the rubber bands on its propellers winding up every 200 miles!Their stadium to Joburg Airport is a half hour drive, then you get an 11 hour direct flight overnight to Heathrow with nice, comfy flat beds, followed by a 3 hour coach journey to Sandy Park.
Even allowing for 2 hours at each airport and the odd caravan with a puncture on the A303 delaying you by another hour, you're struggling to take it over 20 hours, and you could probably do it faster than that via somewhere like Schipol to Exeter Airport.
It's really not a particularly onerous journey!
Something needs to be done to the scheduling of the knock out stages if the South Africans continue to compete (I’m personally not a fan of having them in a “European” competition but they play in the URC so earn that right).
Sorry, never posted in this sub-forum before, but I want to know how La Rochelle and Leinster have only had home ties in the all important European Champions Cup knockout rounds. In fact Leinster could end up winning the European Champions Cup without playing a single knockout game away from home. How can that be fair on the other clubs?
LotusOmega375D said:
Sorry, never posted in this sub-forum before, but I want to know how La Rochelle and Leinster have only had home ties in the all important European Champions Cup knockout rounds. In fact Leinster could end up winning the European Champions Cup without playing a single knockout game away from home. How can that be fair on the other clubs?
Last 16 are seeded based on their performance in the pools. Higher seeded team in each match gets home advantage. Leinster and La Rochelle topped the pools.LotusOmega375D said:
Sorry, never posted in this sub-forum before, but I want to know how La Rochelle and Leinster have only had home ties in the all important European Champions Cup knockout rounds. In fact Leinster could end up winning the European Champions Cup without playing a single knockout game away from home. How can that be fair on the other clubs?
Home advantage for pool performancesAlso worth noting we’ve (Leinster) won Heineken Cups in the past with away knock-out rounds, including the Quins “blood gate” affair in 2009
Hill92 said:
Last 16 are seeded based on their performance in the pools. Higher seeded team in each match gets home advantage. Leinster and La Rochelle topped the pools.
Ah OK. That’s a bonkers system. I can understand home advantage being decided on that basis for the first round of knockout ties, but it really shouldn’t have any influence on deciding what happens thereafter. It should just be a simple draw for each subsequent round. Obviously the location of the final is predetermined, so that’s fair enough, as long as each club gets the same allocation of tickets.It’s clearly a biased system: who came top two in each group? Why that would be La Rochelle, Leinster, Exeter and Toulouse. Who hasn’t played a single away knockout tie yet? Yep, those same four clubs. It’s a joke format and wholly undeserving of the European champions title.
Edited by LotusOmega375D on Monday 10th April 17:31
Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff