General rugby thread
Discussion
Kermit power said:
So close for Ealing against Leicester this afternoon!
Healey as so often making a complete Plum of himself by saying that their playing might warrant them being promoted to the Prem but their average attendance doesn't. Maybe if they were given their fair reward, attendance would increase!
Does anyone know if Ealing are trying to find a stadium to play in which would meet requirements? Surely there's something suitable in and around west London, even as a groundshare?Healey as so often making a complete Plum of himself by saying that their playing might warrant them being promoted to the Prem but their average attendance doesn't. Maybe if they were given their fair reward, attendance would increase!
Or is it a case of the club not wanting to fly too close to the sun?
CivicDuties said:
Does anyone know if Ealing are trying to find a stadium to play in which would meet requirements? Surely there's something suitable in and around west London, even as a groundshare?
Or is it a case of the club not wanting to fly too close to the sun?
It's a bit of a joke really! They've already got 5k capacity, so they'd only need to find about another 800 (which wouldn't look too difficult from what we saw on TV yesterday) to take their capacity beyond the average attendance at Newcastle and Sale. Why would you insist on a minimum capacity of 10k when there are current clubs actually getting little more than half of that through the turnstiles?Or is it a case of the club not wanting to fly too close to the sun?
Kermit power said:
CivicDuties said:
Does anyone know if Ealing are trying to find a stadium to play in which would meet requirements? Surely there's something suitable in and around west London, even as a groundshare?
Or is it a case of the club not wanting to fly too close to the sun?
It's a bit of a joke really! They've already got 5k capacity, so they'd only need to find about another 800 (which wouldn't look too difficult from what we saw on TV yesterday) to take their capacity beyond the average attendance at Newcastle and Sale. Why would you insist on a minimum capacity of 10k when there are current clubs actually getting little more than half of that through the turnstiles?Or is it a case of the club not wanting to fly too close to the sun?
df76 said:
It's not economically sustainable.. and I think the figure is actually north of 15,000 to make the numbers work in any real sense. I guess the RFU feel that they have to insist on something being able to be maintained in the long run (which brings into question the Newcastle and Sale set ups.. plus the Welsh regions). I was surprised to see that it was a long way short of a sell out yesterday, which seemed like madness given the opposition and the game status.
Whilst I agree with you, I can't see how any club can be economically sustainable as long as the salary cap is in place.The cap is a hangover from amateur days. When the game turned Pro, I don't think anyone in a position of power ever truly believed the game ever could become economically sustainable at the club level, so they accepted that the clubs would pretty much all always belong to wealthy hobby-owners and set up the cap to prevent a billionaire owner coming in and buying silverware because mere multi-millionaires couldn't keep up.
The problem now, though, is that to become financially viable is going to take proper commercial investment, and who is going to invest commercially in a venture that basically bans the use of their investment money to improve the core product?
Smollet said:
CivicDuties said:
Does anyone know if Ealing are trying to find a stadium to play in which would meet requirements? Surely there's something suitable in and around west London, even as a groundshare?
The Stoop I was also wondering about Brentford FC's Meccanodome, now that London Irish are out of that picture, and also Craven Cottage. I'd imagine they could attract a lot of previous Irish spectators, and the Chiswick-Hammersmith-Barnes-Putney-Fulham part of London is surely a good catchment area for rugger types.
The ground share model died pretty conclusively with London Irish. The clubs need to make money from tickets, bars and catering to survive, that money just goes to the stadium owners with a ground share.
Anyway Brentford wanted LI out as they didn't need the extra income once they had settled into the Premier League.
Anyway Brentford wanted LI out as they didn't need the extra income once they had settled into the Premier League.
Ean218 said:
The ground share model died pretty conclusively with London Irish. The clubs need to make money from tickets, bars and catering to survive, that money just goes to the stadium owners with a ground share.
Anyway Brentford wanted LI out as they didn't need the extra income once they had settled into the Premier League.
This. In addition, non-matchday revenue is crucial for rugby clubs. Anyway Brentford wanted LI out as they didn't need the extra income once they had settled into the Premier League.
CivicDuties said:
Smollet said:
CivicDuties said:
Does anyone know if Ealing are trying to find a stadium to play in which would meet requirements? Surely there's something suitable in and around west London, even as a groundshare?
The Stoop I was also wondering about Brentford FC's Meccanodome, now that London Irish are out of that picture, and also Craven Cottage. I'd imagine they could attract a lot of previous Irish spectators, and the Chiswick-Hammersmith-Barnes-Putney-Fulham part of London is surely a good catchment area for rugger types.
phil_cardiff said:
Ean218 said:
The ground share model died pretty conclusively with London Irish. The clubs need to make money from tickets, bars and catering to survive, that money just goes to the stadium owners with a ground share.
Anyway Brentford wanted LI out as they didn't need the extra income once they had settled into the Premier League.
This. In addition, non-matchday revenue is crucial for rugby clubs. Anyway Brentford wanted LI out as they didn't need the extra income once they had settled into the Premier League.
Can any rugby club succeed or grow especially moving up into the top tier. Rugby and non rugby income are essential to generate returns. Problem is I think people are turning off rather than tuning in. The game is so different these days and the laws and TV reviewing so intrusive the spectacle is very diminished to the point Twickenham now has to force music on you to try and keep an atmosphere.
I loosely follow London Scottish myself, and occasionally go to games. I know they were planning to move from the RAG and build their own ground somewhere in SW London, but those plans seem to have been shelved since Richmond withdrew from the Championship.
No idea what the plans are now, the club aren't saying anything.
I genuinely can't see any of these sorts of clubs building to a place where they could compete in the top division, though. Exeter did it, but they have a huge catchment area down there and almost zero local competition for fans.
The problem for Ealing, and LS, and any others in that area, is that Harlequins have already captured the fanbase, it seems. Although perhaps there's maybe room for one more to replace Irish, but someone's going to have to take a huge financial risk to sort a stadium out. Maybe they should look to locate somewhere in the Thames Valley/Surrey. But it'd probably end up some soulless meccano semi-stadium in a post-industrial hellscape on the edge of Slough. Not exactly a "community" asset. If they could get a stadium sorted nearish the centre/railway station of a genuinely nice town like Guildford for example, maybe that'd be a goer. But that land don't come cheap. And they wouldn't be Ealing any more. Bit of a Catch 22.
No idea what the plans are now, the club aren't saying anything.
I genuinely can't see any of these sorts of clubs building to a place where they could compete in the top division, though. Exeter did it, but they have a huge catchment area down there and almost zero local competition for fans.
The problem for Ealing, and LS, and any others in that area, is that Harlequins have already captured the fanbase, it seems. Although perhaps there's maybe room for one more to replace Irish, but someone's going to have to take a huge financial risk to sort a stadium out. Maybe they should look to locate somewhere in the Thames Valley/Surrey. But it'd probably end up some soulless meccano semi-stadium in a post-industrial hellscape on the edge of Slough. Not exactly a "community" asset. If they could get a stadium sorted nearish the centre/railway station of a genuinely nice town like Guildford for example, maybe that'd be a goer. But that land don't come cheap. And they wouldn't be Ealing any more. Bit of a Catch 22.
CivicDuties said:
I loosely follow London Scottish myself, and occasionally go to games. I know they were planning to move from the RAG and build their own ground somewhere in SW London, but those plans seem to have been shelved since Richmond withdrew from the Championship.
No idea what the plans are now, the club aren't saying anything.
I genuinely can't see any of these sorts of clubs building to a place where they could compete in the top division, though. Exeter did it, but they have a huge catchment area down there and almost zero local competition for fans.
The problem for Ealing, and LS, and any others in that area, is that Harlequins have already captured the fanbase, it seems. Although perhaps there's maybe room for one more to replace Irish, but someone's going to have to take a huge financial risk to sort a stadium out. Maybe they should look to locate somewhere in the Thames Valley/Surrey. But it'd probably end up some soulless meccano semi-stadium in a post-industrial hellscape on the edge of Slough. Not exactly a "community" asset. If they could get a stadium sorted nearish the centre/railway station of a genuinely nice town like Guildford for example, maybe that'd be a goer. But that land don't come cheap. And they wouldn't be Ealing any more. Bit of a Catch 22.
Whilst I can see your logic, I think you've miscalculated the numbers. No idea what the plans are now, the club aren't saying anything.
I genuinely can't see any of these sorts of clubs building to a place where they could compete in the top division, though. Exeter did it, but they have a huge catchment area down there and almost zero local competition for fans.
The problem for Ealing, and LS, and any others in that area, is that Harlequins have already captured the fanbase, it seems. Although perhaps there's maybe room for one more to replace Irish, but someone's going to have to take a huge financial risk to sort a stadium out. Maybe they should look to locate somewhere in the Thames Valley/Surrey. But it'd probably end up some soulless meccano semi-stadium in a post-industrial hellscape on the edge of Slough. Not exactly a "community" asset. If they could get a stadium sorted nearish the centre/railway station of a genuinely nice town like Guildford for example, maybe that'd be a goer. But that land don't come cheap. And they wouldn't be Ealing any more. Bit of a Catch 22.
Even if Exeter hoovered up every last potential Rugby supporter from the whole of Devon, Cornwall and Dorset, they're still working with a population of under two million, many of whom would face very long drives to get there or some really poor public transport links if they want a drink.
In comparison, even having to compete with Quins and Sarries, Ealing would still be able to take a crack at a population of ten times that with mostly much easier journeys to get there from London and the immediate Home Counties.
I think that those other two provide a really interesting insight into the issue as well.
Sarries are the ones who win all the silverware, yet they can't even sell out their piddly little stadium and average around 8,500 a game. Quins, on the other hand, tend to win something once a decade or so but, win or lose, do it with infinite orders of magnitude more style and panache, so the only thing preventing them selling 20k+ seats per game is the 14k limit on their stadium capacity.
If Ealing keep playing more like Quins and less like Sarries as they do currently, I reckon they could make it.
Edited by Kermit power on Tuesday 20th February 11:25
Kermit power said:
CivicDuties said:
I loosely follow London Scottish myself, and occasionally go to games. I know they were planning to move from the RAG and build their own ground somewhere in SW London, but those plans seem to have been shelved since Richmond withdrew from the Championship.
No idea what the plans are now, the club aren't saying anything.
I genuinely can't see any of these sorts of clubs building to a place where they could compete in the top division, though. Exeter did it, but they have a huge catchment area down there and almost zero local competition for fans.
The problem for Ealing, and LS, and any others in that area, is that Harlequins have already captured the fanbase, it seems. Although perhaps there's maybe room for one more to replace Irish, but someone's going to have to take a huge financial risk to sort a stadium out. Maybe they should look to locate somewhere in the Thames Valley/Surrey. But it'd probably end up some soulless meccano semi-stadium in a post-industrial hellscape on the edge of Slough. Not exactly a "community" asset. If they could get a stadium sorted nearish the centre/railway station of a genuinely nice town like Guildford for example, maybe that'd be a goer. But that land don't come cheap. And they wouldn't be Ealing any more. Bit of a Catch 22.
Whilst I can see your logic, I think you've miscalculated the numbers. No idea what the plans are now, the club aren't saying anything.
I genuinely can't see any of these sorts of clubs building to a place where they could compete in the top division, though. Exeter did it, but they have a huge catchment area down there and almost zero local competition for fans.
The problem for Ealing, and LS, and any others in that area, is that Harlequins have already captured the fanbase, it seems. Although perhaps there's maybe room for one more to replace Irish, but someone's going to have to take a huge financial risk to sort a stadium out. Maybe they should look to locate somewhere in the Thames Valley/Surrey. But it'd probably end up some soulless meccano semi-stadium in a post-industrial hellscape on the edge of Slough. Not exactly a "community" asset. If they could get a stadium sorted nearish the centre/railway station of a genuinely nice town like Guildford for example, maybe that'd be a goer. But that land don't come cheap. And they wouldn't be Ealing any more. Bit of a Catch 22.
Even if Exeter hoovered up every last potential Rugby supporter from the whole of Devon, Cornwall and Dorset, they're still working with a population of under two million, many of whom would face very long drives to get there or some really poor public transport links if they want a drink.
In comparison, even having to compete with Quins and Sarries, Ealing would still be able to take a crack at a population of
I would love the RFU to come up with some way of helping a club like Ealing, but they seem hell bent on blocking any progress.
Hard to know what the answer is, but trying a "if you build it they will come" approach, even in London, carries huge financial risk.
CivicDuties said:
I loosely follow London Scottish myself, and occasionally go to games. I know they were planning to move from the RAG and build their own ground somewhere in SW London, but those plans seem to have been shelved since Richmond withdrew from the Championship.
They were going to go to Esher, but that never got off the ground. I don't understand it.Alickadoo said:
CivicDuties said:
I loosely follow London Scottish myself, and occasionally go to games. I know they were planning to move from the RAG and build their own ground somewhere in SW London, but those plans seem to have been shelved since Richmond withdrew from the Championship.
They were going to go to Esher, but that never got off the ground. I don't understand it.DocJock said:
Similar problems in Scotland.
The semi-pro "Super Series" one tier below Glasgow and Edinburgh, is being scrapped after this season. At the same time they are bringing back the Scotland A team, which would normally have included a lot of Super Series players...
Yes that's a shame, I had been following it and watched what I could on TV, I'm a Ayr-aligned person so enjoyed watching the Ayrshire Bulls games.The semi-pro "Super Series" one tier below Glasgow and Edinburgh, is being scrapped after this season. At the same time they are bringing back the Scotland A team, which would normally have included a lot of Super Series players...
Tom8 said:
Can any rugby club succeed or grow especially moving up into the top tier. Rugby and non rugby income are essential to generate returns. Problem is I think people are turning off rather than tuning in. The game is so different these days and the laws and TV reviewing so intrusive the spectacle is very diminished to the point Twickenham now has to force music on you to try and keep an atmosphere.
How 10 teams of getting on for 50 professional players, plus the rest of the staff, meeting up once a week for a maximum 15 games a season expect to make any money is beyond me. Without a pile of TV money or grants from the RFU the numbers cannot add up. Squad sizes need to come down, maybe get rid of all the subs, it would make the game more interesting too.The only real hope is to let the Welsh and Scots teams into a pan-national league with more games that will mean more to both attending fans and television viewers. That would also keep a lid on travelling costs which must be killing the Welsh and Scots sides right now, as well as the fans.
Ean218 said:
How 10 teams of getting on for 50 professional players, plus the rest of the staff, meeting up once a week for a maximum 15 games a season expect to make any money is beyond me. Without a pile of TV money or grants from the RFU the numbers cannot add up. Squad sizes need to come down, maybe get rid of all the subs, it would make the game more interesting too.
The only real hope is to let the Welsh and Scots teams into a pan-national league with more games that will mean more to both attending fans and television viewers. That would also keep a lid on travelling costs which must be killing the Welsh and Scots sides right now, as well as the fans.
I could see an Anglo-Welsh league certainly, but I'm not sure where the Scots would fit in? Few enough people can even be arsed to schlep up to Sale or Newcastle.The only real hope is to let the Welsh and Scots teams into a pan-national league with more games that will mean more to both attending fans and television viewers. That would also keep a lid on travelling costs which must be killing the Welsh and Scots sides right now, as well as the fans.
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