The spirit of rugby union

[Derek Smith]

I've just been completing an end of season spring clean of my rugby files and I can across this video.

It was an important match for both sides and we had a fullish team. Our scrum half was not noted for his laid back character and there was a battle between him and his opposite number all through the match. Both 9s were getting a bit wound up towards the end of the match and almost the last play is the subject of the video, with the denouement after the whistle.

The ref was excellent. He kept control of both teams and his handling of this incident was exemplary. Many would have flashed a card, maybe a red, but this one had taken note of the methods both used to upset the other. Good play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhK4mULLEPU

The bar afterwards was just like a bar after a match.

[dangerousB]

Sorry, didn't watch the link, but is this a synopsis of an old Armstrong and Miller show?

[TheExcession]

Derek Smith said:

The ref was excellent. He kept control of both teams and his handling of this incident was exemplary.

Hmmm, really? It should never have been allowed degenerate to that.

Derek Smith said:

Many would have flashed a card, maybe a red

Certainly a couple of card-able offenses in there. I would have given red for pushing the head of the player getting up off the ground.

That's certainly not the sort of play that I'd want any of our mini players to witness to be told that 'It's ok they've been at each other all match.....'.

[tight5]

Andy Goode in the hoody ?

[hajaba123]

Blue 9 was a dick, should have been yellow carded in my mind

[768]

tight5 said:

Andy Goode in the hoody ?

Presumably. Before his hair grew back.

I'm not sure letting that behaviour go was ideal. The scrum half, not Goode's hair that is.

[Derek Smith]

TheExcession said:

Derek Smith said:

The ref was excellent. He kept control of both teams and his handling of this incident was exemplary.

Hmmm, really? It should never have been allowed degenerate to that.

Derek Smith said:

Many would have flashed a card, maybe a red

Certainly a couple of card-able offenses in there. I would have given red for pushing the head of the player getting up off the ground.

That's certainly not the sort of play that I'd want any of our mini players to witness to be told that 'It's ok they've been at each other all match.....'.

As I said, the ref did well. You can't make a judgement on his response based on the one incident, the whole match has to be viewed.

I can see his point of view. It was a hard fought match, with some really good play on both sides. It was enjoyable to watch and I reckon it was to play and referee as well. It boiled over in the last two minutes. The #9 in hoops knew that he had let his side down and was shattered when the other side scored. He could not bring himself to go over to his team mates a couple of minutes later after they were pushed 7 points down. Yet his opponents, now sympathetic, shook his hand and one patted him on the shoulder. He took part in the clapping off ceremony. All forgotten.

I had a chat with the ref on the pitch after the match, as I normally do, although mostly to say well played, that sort of thing. He was of the opinion, and it's his that mattered of course, that as no one was hurt, and there was blame on both sides, it would have been a shame to spoil the match.

It was handbags at worst. The white #9 got a clump from his captain, not on video.

The ref had a long chat with the hooped #9, edited out. By they been at one another all match, I did not mean that they'd been fighting. They'd been playing within the laws. It was a great contest.

I can be critical of referees, but not normally of one isolated incident. As long as they are fair and do their best, I'm willing to forgive the occasional error. But this chap ran what could have been a difficult match with aplomb. The incident came out of the blue. I wasn't expecting it and neither was our #9. The 9 made a mistake. I'd have forgiven the ref if he had - as he probably did I suppose, none are perfect - so why not the player.

I spoke with the opposing coach after the match and the penalty wasn't mentioned.

A ref can't make a poor match a good one but he or she can certainly ruin one. This one's attitude was spot on.

[Flibbiddydibbiddydob]

Derek Smith said:

As I said, the ref did well. You can't make a judgement on his response based on the one incident, the whole match has to be viewed.

Indeed, but that was kind of what we/me had to do based upon what you provided!

Derek Smith said:

A ref can't make a poor match a good one but he or she can certainly ruin one. This one's attitude was spot on.

I completely agree, and as I said earlier I don't think it is within the 'spirit of the game' to allow this type of play, it should have been sorted at the first incident.

I think I am of the same opinion as you in that the ref is almost like the conductor in (note I said 'in' and not 'of') an orchestra of a rugby match. They play a central role in directing the the play.

A few weeks back our U11 squad were invited to play at the Joe Moran U11 Blitz. A tournament designed to promote the 'spirit of rugby'. Six matches, 10 mins each, six different teams, six different refs.





These are the values that we at our club are trying to instil.

After each match, like you, I had a chat with the ref (they are learning too) and offered my opinion, politely and always with gratitude that they'd offered up their Saturday to be part of the festival.

On a few occaisions I had some valid criticisms, one of our lads was clotheslined with a straight arm across his neck and had to be subbed off, the ref missed it, but it happened on the touch line right in front of all the parents from our team.

As a coach for our team my first job was to silence all the parents shouting 'REF REF REF' get attention to our lad and then approach the ref. The ref was honest and straight up with 'I didn't see it'. I've witnessed mini coaches completely losing the plot under such circumstances.

In one game last year our head coach reffing the game called a stop and told one of the opposition coaches to leave our ground and never come back due to foul language - what made it even better was parents from the opposition approached and stood along side our head coach and agreed with him!

This Saturday our U11s are playing during the halftime interval at Thomond Park for the Pro12 Munster-Ospreys semi-final match. That is going to be some experience for them (and us) trotting out in front of a 20,000 strong crowd.

I can hardly wait, what an experience for them and us.



As I said before Derek, the spirit of rugby is born during the early coaching years and whilst you appear to think that the incidents during that match are acceptable because they were 'well managed', I just cannot agree or accept any of that as being the spirit of rugby, and as said I wouldn't want any of our U11s seeing that as acceptable play.






Roll on Saturday!

[Derek Smith]

I took an official role in my club and I thought being 'nice' to the ref was part of that. However, instead of just a handshake and well done, it often ended up in a chat or two. It opened my eyes to an extent and, oddly enough, increased my enjoyment of the game, albeit to a limited extent. Instead of getting wound up at a decision I could accept that they had their own agenda.

One thing has come through from this season' We struggled, losing our first 9 matches and after a win, lost another 5 or 6. We never got a 50:50 decision except when we were playing a team just above or below us. When chatting to a supporter, committee member, of the other team, one we beat, who was relegated, I mentioned it to him, and he said that he too had noticed it and had taken it up with the ref post match.

[Flibbiddydibbiddydob]

Is your post below in reply to what I posted above?

Derek Smith said:

I took an official role in my club and I thought being 'nice' to the ref was part of that. However, instead of just a handshake and well done, it often ended up in a chat or two. It opened my eyes to an extent and, oddly enough, increased my enjoyment of the game, albeit to a limited extent. Instead of getting wound up at a decision I could accept that they had their own agenda.

One thing has come through from this season' We struggled, losing our first 9 matches and after a win, lost another 5 or 6. We never got a 50:50 decision except when we were playing a team just above or below us. When chatting to a supporter, committee member, of the other team, one we beat, who was relegated, I mentioned it to him, and he said that he too had noticed it and had taken it up with the ref post match.

To be honest I'm struggling to understand your point here. Are you blaming your team or the ref?

I'm not sure what your official role is within your club, I know what my role is. It's coaching young kids in playing to the spirit of the game and trying to ensure that they (the kids) never get pulled up on their play.

My son is going to transition from mini rugby to junior rugby soon, (requires an IRFU retrain for the coaches) and if he was involved in a situation like the number 9 incident that your video shows I'd expect the ref to pull it up.

That behavior is not rugby.

[Derek Smith]

Flibbiddydibbiddydob said:

Is your post below in reply to what I posted above?

Derek Smith said:

I took an official role in my club and I thought being 'nice' to the ref was part of that. However, instead of just a handshake and well done, it often ended up in a chat or two. It opened my eyes to an extent and, oddly enough, increased my enjoyment of the game, albeit to a limited extent. Instead of getting wound up at a decision I could accept that they had their own agenda.

One thing has come through from this season' We struggled, losing our first 9 matches and after a win, lost another 5 or 6. We never got a 50:50 decision except when we were playing a team just above or below us. When chatting to a supporter, committee member, of the other team, one we beat, who was relegated, I mentioned it to him, and he said that he too had noticed it and had taken it up with the ref post match.

To be honest I'm struggling to understand your point here. Are you blaming your team or the ref?

I'm not sure what your official role is within your club, I know what my role is. It's coaching young kids in playing to the spirit of the game and trying to ensure that they (the kids) never get pulled up on their play.

My son is going to transition from mini rugby to junior rugby soon, (requires an IRFU retrain for the coaches) and if he was involved in a situation like the number 9 incident that your video shows I'd expect the ref to pull it up.

That behavior is not rugby.

I'm not blaming anyone.

The ref did 'bring it up', speaking to the player for some time, edited out as mentioned, and also the captain. They were warned that in an otherwise good spirited match, any further disruption would be dealt with more strongly, but as it was the last play of the match, it was an empty threat. The ref dealt with the matter. He also spoke with our #9. I'm no sycophant for refs, but I have a great deal of sympathy and gratitude for them. I'm happy to allow them their decisions in such matters if they feel it is for the best. No one was injured, no one hurt. There were no punches, the push was mild and the face off was posturing.

As for the behaviour not being rugby, I've gone to the vast majority of my lad's teams' matches for 13 years, cutting back to home matches alone from March this year due to a back injury. That's up to level four down to level 7. I'd say that there have been similar incidents at most, and sometimes much worse. So in many ways minor spats, which this was by any definition, are normal behaviour.

Such behaviour should be policed, as indeed this one was. The chap's captain was firm in his treatment of him as ours was with out #9. I'm willing to let the ref decide the best way of dealing with such incidents.

The away #9 overreacted following a match long battle for supremacy against his opposite number. He went to tackle our 9 when the ball was still in the scrum. The push was frustration, and would not have hurt. A popular player was assaulted but the reaction on field by his team was mild, probably because the assault was equally mild.

But I assume you will support the spirit of rugby shown by the players at the end of the match. The 'innocent' team ran across to the offender, who obviously felt a bit down after his penalty cost them a converted try, and shook his hand, one even patting him on the back. The chap replied in kind, not pulling away but acknowledging the opposition. That's the spirit of rugby. Nothing taken off the pitch. The two #9s even chatted together after the match.

This was an enjoyable match to watch at a number of levels. Good and clever play from both sides. And from the ref.

[XCP]

The spirit was alive and well on Wednesday evening.
Out of interest I went along to a trial session of Walking Rugby. Aimed specifically at the over 55's, about 30 old codgers turned up and we all had a great time, at 57 I was one of the youngsters, there were guys in their 70's playing. And quite a few ladies.
It's a bit like 7's, at walking pace without lineouts and scrums. Physical contact is not allowed. 20 minute games, 4 quarters of 5 mins. ( Don't want to overdo it)

Sounds boring but we had a laugh, and renewed some old acquaintances. 'Didn't I prop against you 20 odd years ago?....'

At the end we clapped each other off, ( of course) and adjourned to the bar.

I am looking forward to next week.

( I even scored a try!!)

Oh and there is a demo game at half time at the prem final, featuring the Bristol team and some of the guys I play with!!

[768]

Even at 34 I think that sounds like a great idea.

[Derek Smith]

XCP said:

The spirit was alive and well on Wednesday evening.
Out of interest I went along to a trial session of Walking Rugby. Aimed specifically at the over 55's, about 30 old codgers turned up and we all had a great time, at 57 I was one of the youngsters, there were guys in their 70's playing. And quite a few ladies.
It's a bit like 7's, at walking pace without lineouts and scrums. Physical contact is not allowed. 20 minute games, 4 quarters of 5 mins. ( Don't want to overdo it)

Sounds boring but we had a laugh, and renewed some old acquaintances. 'Didn't I prop against you 20 odd years ago?....'

At the end we clapped each other off, ( of course) and adjourned to the bar.

I am looking forward to next week.

( I even scored a try!!)

Oh and there is a demo game at half time at the prem final, featuring the Bristol team and some of the guys I play with!!

Walking rugby? Is that like props?

They are starting it at my club and I will have a go. Sounds fun, but not too much so.

[C70R]

Blue #9 is a bellend, who probably needs a YC to keep his attitude in check, even though nothing specific warranted sanction. The business of pushing your own players out of the way to go back and instigate a fight after the referee has separated teams is wendyball b*llocks, and would have gone down VERY badly at any of the clubs I played at.

Flibbiddydibbiddydob said:

As I said before Derek, the spirit of rugby is born during the early coaching years and whilst you appear to think that the incidents during that match are acceptable because they were 'well managed', I just cannot agree or accept any of that as being the spirit of rugby, and as said I wouldn't want any of our U11s seeing that as acceptable play.

This. So much this. Nothing there is what I would call "in the spirit of the game". It's a couple of blokes (mainly instigated by one) who haven't got enough of a handle on their emotions to play hard without going OTT. I played with a few people like that, and they tended not to last long at clubs.

Edited by C70R on Tuesday 30th May 16:27

[spikeyhead]

Flibbiddydibbiddydob said:

Lots of sensible stuff

Snuff sed

[nellystew]

This is the spirit of rugby

[Flibbiddydibbiddydob]

spikeyhead said:

Flibbiddydibbiddydob said:

Lots of sensible stuff

Snuff sed