six nations 2021
Discussion
768 said:
I don't think anyone's claiming anything quite that simple. It would have been a different game, one we didn't get to see.
It seems plenty of people are claiming that - but I do get your point. Twas always thus, however. They’ve had the results they deserve in this tournament. It’s sad, because with the quality they have at an individual level, the opposite of synergy is emerging.
Simply put, England didn't deserve to win - as usual, they seem to think the laws of the game don't apply to them (if I were feeling nasty I would say that's a carry over from Saracens). Yes, I am an England supporter.
The rest of it is in the realms of what if. If the ref didn't have an absolute shocker, would England have felt the need to chase the game that way? Probably as they don't seem to be very intelligent at the moment.
End of the day, ref doesn't need to be seen on an international pitch again. England need to shape up. Wales have had the rub of the green this championship.
The rest of it is in the realms of what if. If the ref didn't have an absolute shocker, would England have felt the need to chase the game that way? Probably as they don't seem to be very intelligent at the moment.
End of the day, ref doesn't need to be seen on an international pitch again. England need to shape up. Wales have had the rub of the green this championship.
XCP said:
Evanivitch said:
What would the TMO review in the Josh Adams try?
Whether it should have been awarded?I wonder what Nigel Owens thinks?
ETA, Nigel Owens thinks neither should have been allowed (Wales online). His view is that there was a definite knock on and the ref should not have called "time on" whilst England were in a huddle.
Edited by Trophy Husband on Sunday 28th February 07:55
It’s not about those tries. England ought to be top of the table with the players and resources available to them.
This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
El stovey said:
It’s not about those tries. England ought to be top of the table with the players and resources available to them.
This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
Indeed.This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
What's disappointing is that Jones seems unable to learn, adapt or bring on new talent.
Losses to Wales AND Scotland AND an unconvincing Italy win, with a young squad being developed with an eye to the RWC23, would have been acceptable.
Losses to Wales AND Scotland AND an unconvincing Italy win, with an injury-ravaged squad patched together at the last minute, would have been acceptable.
Being out-played AND out-thought by Wales AND Scotland, with the hugely experienced squad available?
How many of the current squad will be in the RWC23 squad, based on age and performance in 2021? Not many, I hope. Equally, hopefully not Jones in charge either - he has disappointed me immensely since the RWC final loss.
El stovey said:
It’s not about those tries. England ought to be top of the table with the players and resources available to them.
This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
Entirely true. With strong set pieces and some top talent they should be romping home. This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
You can see moments of brilliance. In the 10 minutes before half time you saw expansive play, great lines and constant threat.
They lack the discipline to play percentage-kicking rugby.
BlackWidow13 said:
Evanivitch said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Yep. And they don’t throw it forwards before kicking it. It travels vertically downwards to the foot. Nor do they lose possession of it.
LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Errr, except LRZ didn't knock the ball backwards onto his rear leg...LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
Break it:
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs
(1) when a player (a) loses possession of the ball and (b) it goes forward, or
(2) when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or
(3) when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and
[in each case] the ball (a) touches the ground or (b) another player
before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
There is no mention of “leg” anywhere. The fact that the ball touched LRZ’s leg between his hand and the ground makes no difference.
He lost possession of it, it went forward, it touched the ground before LRZ could catch it. Knock on.
None of (1), (2) or (3) occur when kicking from hand or drop kicking.
TTmonkey said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Evanivitch said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Yep. And they don’t throw it forwards before kicking it. It travels vertically downwards to the foot. Nor do they lose possession of it.
LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Errr, except LRZ didn't knock the ball backwards onto his rear leg...LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
Break it:
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs
(1) when a player (a) loses possession of the ball and (b) it goes forward, or
(2) when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or
(3) when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and
[in each case] the ball (a) touches the ground or (b) another player
before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
There is no mention of “leg” anywhere. The fact that the ball touched LRZ’s leg between his hand and the ground makes no difference.
He lost possession of it, it went forward, it touched the ground before LRZ could catch it. Knock on.
None of (1), (2) or (3) occur when kicking from hand or drop kicking.
Discipline definitely seems to be an issue.
Giving away loads of penalties, led by Farrell who’s constantly talking back to the ref but when asked about it in interviews, shows no remorse and says he’s just sticking up for his team. Maybe Jones actually wants his players doing it?
Looks to me like it’s all unnecessary and detrimental, costs points and needs to be sorted ASAP.
Giving away loads of penalties, led by Farrell who’s constantly talking back to the ref but when asked about it in interviews, shows no remorse and says he’s just sticking up for his team. Maybe Jones actually wants his players doing it?
Looks to me like it’s all unnecessary and detrimental, costs points and needs to be sorted ASAP.
El stovey said:
It’s not about those tries. England ought to be top of the table with the players and resources available to them.
This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
England under Jones are very odd and flatter to deceive, they can look good and talk themselves up but most of the game time are predictable, slow, bad disciplined and expectant winners then poor losers. Naturally being Welsh I’m happy about this but if I was English I would be fuming. They should be much much better with the players, funding, premiership, structure etc. Where’s their urgency, adaption, hunger and killer instinct? This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
I see itoje is getting a mullering in the player ratings today but I think he’s superb, proper nuisance and only player in white really trying.
Edit just to add.. what’s with the whole dozing turning backs thing? My earliest memories playing rugby U10s the coach told us never ever turn your backs on the opposition, expect them to tap and go. England look like they’re playing American football with gaps between plays. No street smarts
Edited by Boom78 on Sunday 28th February 08:48
Evanivitch said:
TTmonkey said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Evanivitch said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Yep. And they don’t throw it forwards before kicking it. It travels vertically downwards to the foot. Nor do they lose possession of it.
LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Errr, except LRZ didn't knock the ball backwards onto his rear leg...LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
Break it:
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs
(1) when a player (a) loses possession of the ball and (b) it goes forward, or
(2) when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or
(3) when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and
[in each case] the ball (a) touches the ground or (b) another player
before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
There is no mention of “leg” anywhere. The fact that the ball touched LRZ’s leg between his hand and the ground makes no difference.
He lost possession of it, it went forward, it touched the ground before LRZ could catch it. Knock on.
None of (1), (2) or (3) occur when kicking from hand or drop kicking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0l6tipGdVA
I think in patches England showed a lot more intensity which was hugely lacking in the Scotland game. Problem yesterday was due to discipline and handling errors any flow got squashed plus there was also some woeful kicking (again).
The Saracens contingent look to have varying levels of ring rust. However some of the prem players were no better yesterday.
Jamie George has arguably been one of the best hookers in the world for several seasons, but looks well off it.
Daly, is a good utlity back and was a Lions test winger not too long ago. He's been the worst of the Saracens players.
Farrell, problem is him being captain has made him what seems undroppable. In terms of his play yesterday I thought it was much better. He's a s
t captain though that is probably marked by referees.
Billy V thought he stepped up and carried well yesterday. Needs push on with more of that.
Mako V thought he was decent yesterday. Genge had been pretty awful as a back up.
Itoje. Like the rest of the team needs to adapt to how the referee is officiating. England's defence and line speed was much improved. Wales weren't making much of a dent it ended up of being a case of waiting to see who made a mistake or infraction which tended to be England.
Youngs frustratingly had his one good game in 10 yesterday. Collectively England are trying too hard, put themselves in that position the way the start they got against Scotland.
The Saracens contingent look to have varying levels of ring rust. However some of the prem players were no better yesterday.
Jamie George has arguably been one of the best hookers in the world for several seasons, but looks well off it.
Daly, is a good utlity back and was a Lions test winger not too long ago. He's been the worst of the Saracens players.
Farrell, problem is him being captain has made him what seems undroppable. In terms of his play yesterday I thought it was much better. He's a s
t captain though that is probably marked by referees.Billy V thought he stepped up and carried well yesterday. Needs push on with more of that.
Mako V thought he was decent yesterday. Genge had been pretty awful as a back up.
Itoje. Like the rest of the team needs to adapt to how the referee is officiating. England's defence and line speed was much improved. Wales weren't making much of a dent it ended up of being a case of waiting to see who made a mistake or infraction which tended to be England.
Youngs frustratingly had his one good game in 10 yesterday. Collectively England are trying too hard, put themselves in that position the way the start they got against Scotland.
DocJock said:
Evanivitch said:
TTmonkey said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Evanivitch said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Yep. And they don’t throw it forwards before kicking it. It travels vertically downwards to the foot. Nor do they lose possession of it.
LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Errr, except LRZ didn't knock the ball backwards onto his rear leg...LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
Break it:
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs
(1) when a player (a) loses possession of the ball and (b) it goes forward, or
(2) when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or
(3) when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and
[in each case] the ball (a) touches the ground or (b) another player
before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
There is no mention of “leg” anywhere. The fact that the ball touched LRZ’s leg between his hand and the ground makes no difference.
He lost possession of it, it went forward, it touched the ground before LRZ could catch it. Knock on.
None of (1), (2) or (3) occur when kicking from hand or drop kicking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0l6tipGdVA
The ball stays alive whilst LVT fails to control it. It hits HIS leg (not another players or the ground) and is therefore alive. At the point it hits his leg it then goes backwards. End of consideration for a knock on. STOP THERE. At no time during LVTs miscontrol does it move forward onto either another player nor the ground. When it goes backwards off his leg the miscontrol is over without either hitting another player or the ground.
Hey I’m Welsh and I thought it was a knock on and the try was a joke. But when you analyse it the ball remains in play at all times..... and unfortunately, after the ball went backwards it hit the on rushing England player and bounced kindly forward off the England player for the try.
Boom78 said:
I see itoje is getting a mullering in the player ratings today but I think he’s superb, proper nuisance and only player in white really trying.
Take his penalties away and there can be no talk of England's discipline being the issue yesterday. I assume he gave away the most penalties, or at least the ref gave most against him.I agree though, I think he's probably the best second row I've ever seen, one of the best players full stop. I even don't think he needs to change his game, some of those decisions against him were pretty borderline.
TTmonkey said:
DocJock said:
Evanivitch said:
TTmonkey said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Evanivitch said:
BlackWidow13 said:
Yep. And they don’t throw it forwards before kicking it. It travels vertically downwards to the foot. Nor do they lose possession of it.
LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Errr, except LRZ didn't knock the ball backwards onto his rear leg...LRZ knew it was a knock on. Players know.
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
Break it:
Law 12 definitions defines a knock on:-
A knock-on occurs
(1) when a player (a) loses possession of the ball and (b) it goes forward, or
(2) when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or
(3) when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and
[in each case] the ball (a) touches the ground or (b) another player
before the original player can catch it.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.
There is no mention of “leg” anywhere. The fact that the ball touched LRZ’s leg between his hand and the ground makes no difference.
He lost possession of it, it went forward, it touched the ground before LRZ could catch it. Knock on.
None of (1), (2) or (3) occur when kicking from hand or drop kicking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0l6tipGdVA
The ball stays alive whilst LVT fails to control it. It hits HIS leg (not another players or the ground) and is therefore alive. At the point it hits his leg it then goes backwards. End of consideration for a knock on. STOP THERE. At no time during LVTs miscontrol does it move forward onto either another player nor the ground. When it goes backwards off his leg the miscontrol is over without either hitting another player or the ground.
Hey I’m Welsh and I thought it was a knock on and the try was a joke. But when you analyse it the ball remains in play at all times..... and unfortunately, after the ball went backwards it hit the on rushing England player and bounced kindly forward off the England player for the try.
I'm amazed that those international level refs don't know the law. I would rightly have expected a b
king at lowly Grade 5 for that cock-up.ps, Nigel Owens agrees
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