six nations 2021
Discussion
Nigel Owens has it spot on.
First try, at the point that Biggar says “can we have time back on?”, if the ref restarts at that point then it’s a try. Doesn’t need to be a kick, they could pass it across the park and stroll in. 14 out of 15 players are in a huddle under the posts half with their backs to the ball. To restart in those conditions is fine if it’s normal play. But given that the ref had told England to go and do just that, he needs to allow them to reset.
Second try, LRZ scoops the ball forward with his hand and loses control. If he’s not the next player to regain control before the ball hits ground then it’s a knock on, and would be reffed that way 99.9% of the time.
Seems like the ref decided pre match he was going to be a stickler for any possible infringement and England initially failed to adapt and then latterly committed hari-kiri with some of the penalties. By the second half England had completely lost the ref and all he was doing was looking for England infractions. Case in point - Wales lineout, Itoje jumps, by the time he comes down the maul has formed and he’s isolated. He works his way out, comes around the back of the pack when he gets taken out by a couple of Welsh forwards, then the ref penalises Itoje for being on the wrong side! Similarly there’s a neck roll when Youngs scored his try but nothing happens. Even the penalty against Farrell for the first try was dubious. Farrell makes the tackle, goes to ground and immediately 2 Welsh players flop off their feet next to him. His legs are trapped and he’s got players either side. Normally the scrum half would collect the ball and play would continue. Yet the ref blows up after literally 1 second of Farrell lying there saying he hasn’t rolled away. I’m really not sure what the ref thought he could do.
Wales won.
As for who was better, I’d say it is pretty hard to say. There wasn’t enough flow in the game. Wales played the ref well, England totally failed to do so, and coupled with a total loss of discipline at the end, that was the difference.
It was a shame as I thought there was a good game of proper rugby to be seen, and all we got was a ref who liked the sound of his own whistle.
First try, at the point that Biggar says “can we have time back on?”, if the ref restarts at that point then it’s a try. Doesn’t need to be a kick, they could pass it across the park and stroll in. 14 out of 15 players are in a huddle under the posts half with their backs to the ball. To restart in those conditions is fine if it’s normal play. But given that the ref had told England to go and do just that, he needs to allow them to reset.
Second try, LRZ scoops the ball forward with his hand and loses control. If he’s not the next player to regain control before the ball hits ground then it’s a knock on, and would be reffed that way 99.9% of the time.
Seems like the ref decided pre match he was going to be a stickler for any possible infringement and England initially failed to adapt and then latterly committed hari-kiri with some of the penalties. By the second half England had completely lost the ref and all he was doing was looking for England infractions. Case in point - Wales lineout, Itoje jumps, by the time he comes down the maul has formed and he’s isolated. He works his way out, comes around the back of the pack when he gets taken out by a couple of Welsh forwards, then the ref penalises Itoje for being on the wrong side! Similarly there’s a neck roll when Youngs scored his try but nothing happens. Even the penalty against Farrell for the first try was dubious. Farrell makes the tackle, goes to ground and immediately 2 Welsh players flop off their feet next to him. His legs are trapped and he’s got players either side. Normally the scrum half would collect the ball and play would continue. Yet the ref blows up after literally 1 second of Farrell lying there saying he hasn’t rolled away. I’m really not sure what the ref thought he could do.
Wales won.
As for who was better, I’d say it is pretty hard to say. There wasn’t enough flow in the game. Wales played the ref well, England totally failed to do so, and coupled with a total loss of discipline at the end, that was the difference.
It was a shame as I thought there was a good game of proper rugby to be seen, and all we got was a ref who liked the sound of his own whistle.
julianm said:
Had a look at Wales Online this morning as they always offer an unbiased opinion on the Wales England game.
There is some Twitter stuff about a Genge headbutt near the end of the game but footage isn't that clear. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-ne...
Am I missing something? That link seems to be for the November match There is some Twitter stuff about a Genge headbutt near the end of the game but footage isn't that clear. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-ne...
PhilboSE said:
14 out of 15 players are in a huddle under the posts half with their backs to the ball. .
That's bollucks. Left wing all lined up. Right wing, strolling out, back to play.
https://scontent.fbrs4-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr...
Joey Ramone said:
England just don’t know how to win games. They think it’s just about scoring points. Whereas it’s about applying pressure patiently and consistently without needless errors. It’s about mistake free rugby. It’s about playing like professionals paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a year who should know that entering a ruck from the side, changing your binding in a maul, or turning your back on an opposition scrum half when he’s just been awarded a pen 10 yds from the try line, are the things that you just don’t do at this level. Unfortunately England are blessed with a bunch of clueless muppets in this regard.
People wonder why the AB’s have such a remarkable win record. It’s nothing really to do with flash skills. It has always been about doing the right things at the right time, doing them relentlessly well, and making as few mistakes as possible in the process.
Add, or subtract, the odd word here and there, but otherwise that is just about right.People wonder why the AB’s have such a remarkable win record. It’s nothing really to do with flash skills. It has always been about doing the right things at the right time, doing them relentlessly well, and making as few mistakes as possible in the process.
We have 15 individuals, but not a team. It's a repeat of the Lancaster days.
JonChalk said:
Indeed.
What's disappointing is that Jones seems unable to learn, adapt or bring on new talent.
Losses to Wales AND Scotland AND an unconvincing Italy win, with a young squad being developed with an eye to the RWC23, would have been acceptable.
Losses to Wales AND Scotland AND an unconvincing Italy win, with an injury-ravaged squad patched together at the last minute, would have been acceptable.
Being out-played AND out-thought by Wales AND Scotland, with the hugely experienced squad available?
How many of the current squad will be in the RWC23 squad, based on age and performance in 2021? Not many, I hope. Equally, hopefully not Jones in charge either - he has disappointed me immensely since the RWC final loss.
This exactly, there are two many players in the squad who think they’re irreplaceable and are not performing, Billy V had his best game in a while but was still overshadowed by Toby F, as for Daly he’s been poor for a while. But their possible replacements are not being given the opportunities.What's disappointing is that Jones seems unable to learn, adapt or bring on new talent.
Losses to Wales AND Scotland AND an unconvincing Italy win, with a young squad being developed with an eye to the RWC23, would have been acceptable.
Losses to Wales AND Scotland AND an unconvincing Italy win, with an injury-ravaged squad patched together at the last minute, would have been acceptable.
Being out-played AND out-thought by Wales AND Scotland, with the hugely experienced squad available?
How many of the current squad will be in the RWC23 squad, based on age and performance in 2021? Not many, I hope. Equally, hopefully not Jones in charge either - he has disappointed me immensely since the RWC final loss.
biggbn said:
I thought England were very unlucky and the result flattered the Welsh hugely. What a strange tournament this has been so far.
I think Wales deserved to win, finished far stronger but the ref was appalling, two obvious decisions aside he killed the game with a series of pedantic penalties, both resorted to kicking as a result. Jones pre match comments may well have wound up the ref and Farrell clearly failed to get any understanding going with him, but none of that excuses the penalty count in the last 15 minutes. Personally I would like to see Jones stand down, he’s too loyal to players out of touch and out of form, always has been.
Welshbeef said:
Sadly trolls (assume English) battered the BBC sports interviewer following her challenging Farrell interview.....
Her post match interviews (all of them) were s
t and I don't see any problem in calling her out.She is saying today: "Toxic, embarrassing, disgraceful, appalling. Just some of the feedback I've had"
That's not really abusive and her robust questioning suggests she is no shrinking violet so should be able to take what she gives.
If your job is presenting to the public then the public have a right to gives their views - its everyone else's rights to ignore those views if they want.
As long as it doesn't cross the line into abuse.
I'm not an England fan - I watched the game & the interviews as an interested neutral.
Blue62 said:
IPersonally I would like to see Jones stand down, he’s too loyal to players out of touch and out of form, always has been.
Have to agree - it’s a bit like the usual guff you see from the members of the 2003 side when they’re in the studio - certain guys can do no wrong. New blood needs an opportunity to get seated. Hopefully that happens soon.
As for the post-match interview - I thought she was fairly poor. She certainly wasn’t abusive or anything like that, but her Jeremy Paxman approach made for poor viewing. The public didn’t learn anything from them. She ought to know that a Farrell after a loss has all the insight & engagement of a comatose ape.
i4got said:
Welshbeef said:
Sadly trolls (assume English) battered the BBC sports interviewer following her challenging Farrell interview.....
Her post match interviews (all of them) were st and I don't see any problem in calling her out.She is saying today: "Toxic, embarrassing, disgraceful, appalling. Just some of the feedback I've had"
That's not really abusive and her robust questioning suggests she is no shrinking violet so should be able to take what she gives.
If your job is presenting to the public then the public have a right to gives their views - its everyone else's rights to ignore those views if they want.
As long as it doesn't cross the line into abuse.
I'm not an England fan - I watched the game & the interviews as an interested neutral.
Farrell can't manage his team on pitch, or the ref either. OWJ can, in spades, and that was the real difference for me yesterday.
Royal Jelly said:
...but her Jeremy Paxman approach made for poor viewing.
I'm sure a BBC radio interviewer was criticised for repeatedly, pointedly asking the same question to someone who wasn't a politician recently.It seems to be a style that's spreading years after it stopped being effective. I wouldn't give her grief on Twitter over it, but I'd have thought it a given some would regardless of how she did.
Telling the world you're crying in the car seems to have become a thing recently too, that bothers me more than the interview. I'm blaming XFactor for that one.
Royal Jelly said:
El stovey said:
It’s not about those tries. England ought to be top of the table with the players and resources available to them.
This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
Entirely true. With strong set pieces and some top talent they should be romping home. This tournament so far they’ve lost to Scotland, beat Italy and got hammered by Wales with arguably two of the harder matches left to play yet.
Sure the pandemic is throwing up some surprises in many sports and the empty stadiums are more of a leveller but somethings really going wrong for England.
You can see moments of brilliance. In the 10 minutes before half time you saw expansive play, great lines and constant threat.
They lack the discipline to play percentage-kicking rugby.
PhilboSE said:
Nigel Owens has it spot on.
First try, at the point that Biggar says “can we have time back on?”, if the ref restarts at that point then it’s a try. Doesn’t need to be a kick, they could pass it across the park and stroll in. 14 out of 15 players are in a huddle under the posts half with their backs to the ball. To restart in those conditions is fine if it’s normal play. But given that the ref had told England to go and do just that, he needs to allow them to reset.
Second try, LRZ scoops the ball forward with his hand and loses control. If he’s not the next player to regain control before the ball hits ground then it’s a knock on, and would be reffed that way 99.9% of the time.
Seems like the ref decided pre match he was going to be a stickler for any possible infringement and England initially failed to adapt and then latterly committed hari-kiri with some of the penalties. By the second half England had completely lost the ref and all he was doing was looking for England infractions. Case in point - Wales lineout, Itoje jumps, by the time he comes down the maul has formed and he’s isolated. He works his way out, comes around the back of the pack when he gets taken out by a couple of Welsh forwards, then the ref penalises Itoje for being on the wrong side! Similarly there’s a neck roll when Youngs scored his try but nothing happens. Even the penalty against Farrell for the first try was dubious. Farrell makes the tackle, goes to ground and immediately 2 Welsh players flop off their feet next to him. His legs are trapped and he’s got players either side. Normally the scrum half would collect the ball and play would continue. Yet the ref blows up after literally 1 second of Farrell lying there saying he hasn’t rolled away. I’m really not sure what the ref thought he could do.
Wales won.
As for who was better, I’d say it is pretty hard to say. There wasn’t enough flow in the game. Wales played the ref well, England totally failed to do so, and coupled with a total loss of discipline at the end, that was the difference.
It was a shame as I thought there was a good game of proper rugby to be seen, and all we got was a ref who liked the sound of his own whistle.
A good ref ought to be invisible post match.First try, at the point that Biggar says “can we have time back on?”, if the ref restarts at that point then it’s a try. Doesn’t need to be a kick, they could pass it across the park and stroll in. 14 out of 15 players are in a huddle under the posts half with their backs to the ball. To restart in those conditions is fine if it’s normal play. But given that the ref had told England to go and do just that, he needs to allow them to reset.
Second try, LRZ scoops the ball forward with his hand and loses control. If he’s not the next player to regain control before the ball hits ground then it’s a knock on, and would be reffed that way 99.9% of the time.
Seems like the ref decided pre match he was going to be a stickler for any possible infringement and England initially failed to adapt and then latterly committed hari-kiri with some of the penalties. By the second half England had completely lost the ref and all he was doing was looking for England infractions. Case in point - Wales lineout, Itoje jumps, by the time he comes down the maul has formed and he’s isolated. He works his way out, comes around the back of the pack when he gets taken out by a couple of Welsh forwards, then the ref penalises Itoje for being on the wrong side! Similarly there’s a neck roll when Youngs scored his try but nothing happens. Even the penalty against Farrell for the first try was dubious. Farrell makes the tackle, goes to ground and immediately 2 Welsh players flop off their feet next to him. His legs are trapped and he’s got players either side. Normally the scrum half would collect the ball and play would continue. Yet the ref blows up after literally 1 second of Farrell lying there saying he hasn’t rolled away. I’m really not sure what the ref thought he could do.
Wales won.
As for who was better, I’d say it is pretty hard to say. There wasn’t enough flow in the game. Wales played the ref well, England totally failed to do so, and coupled with a total loss of discipline at the end, that was the difference.
It was a shame as I thought there was a good game of proper rugby to be seen, and all we got was a ref who liked the sound of his own whistle.
Even as a Welshman the game is still out on the park for me. Yes, we won but, being honest, there's a hollowness to it.
PhilboSE said:
Nigel Owens has it spot on.
First try, at the point that Biggar says “can we have time back on?”, if the ref restarts at that point then it’s a try. Doesn’t need to be a kick, they could pass it across the park and stroll in. 14 out of 15 players are in a huddle under the posts half with their backs to the ball. To restart in those conditions is fine if it’s normal play. But given that the ref had told England to go and do just that, he needs to allow them to reset.
Second try, LRZ scoops the ball forward with his hand and loses control. If he’s not the next player to regain control before the ball hits ground then it’s a knock on, and would be reffed that way 99.9% of the time.
Seems like the ref decided pre match he was going to be a stickler for any possible infringement and England initially failed to adapt and then latterly committed hari-kiri with some of the penalties. By the second half England had completely lost the ref and all he was doing was looking for England infractions. Case in point - Wales lineout, Itoje jumps, by the time he comes down the maul has formed and he’s isolated. He works his way out, comes around the back of the pack when he gets taken out by a couple of Welsh forwards, then the ref penalises Itoje for being on the wrong side! Similarly there’s a neck roll when Youngs scored his try but nothing happens. Even the penalty against Farrell for the first try was dubious. Farrell makes the tackle, goes to ground and immediately 2 Welsh players flop off their feet next to him. His legs are trapped and he’s got players either side. Normally the scrum half would collect the ball and play would continue. Yet the ref blows up after literally 1 second of Farrell lying there saying he hasn’t rolled away. I’m really not sure what the ref thought he could do.
Wales won.
As for who was better, I’d say it is pretty hard to say. There wasn’t enough flow in the game. Wales played the ref well, England totally failed to do so, and coupled with a total loss of discipline at the end, that was the difference.
It was a shame as I thought there was a good game of proper rugby to be seen, and all we got was a ref who liked the sound of his own whistle.
A good ref ought to be invisible post match.First try, at the point that Biggar says “can we have time back on?”, if the ref restarts at that point then it’s a try. Doesn’t need to be a kick, they could pass it across the park and stroll in. 14 out of 15 players are in a huddle under the posts half with their backs to the ball. To restart in those conditions is fine if it’s normal play. But given that the ref had told England to go and do just that, he needs to allow them to reset.
Second try, LRZ scoops the ball forward with his hand and loses control. If he’s not the next player to regain control before the ball hits ground then it’s a knock on, and would be reffed that way 99.9% of the time.
Seems like the ref decided pre match he was going to be a stickler for any possible infringement and England initially failed to adapt and then latterly committed hari-kiri with some of the penalties. By the second half England had completely lost the ref and all he was doing was looking for England infractions. Case in point - Wales lineout, Itoje jumps, by the time he comes down the maul has formed and he’s isolated. He works his way out, comes around the back of the pack when he gets taken out by a couple of Welsh forwards, then the ref penalises Itoje for being on the wrong side! Similarly there’s a neck roll when Youngs scored his try but nothing happens. Even the penalty against Farrell for the first try was dubious. Farrell makes the tackle, goes to ground and immediately 2 Welsh players flop off their feet next to him. His legs are trapped and he’s got players either side. Normally the scrum half would collect the ball and play would continue. Yet the ref blows up after literally 1 second of Farrell lying there saying he hasn’t rolled away. I’m really not sure what the ref thought he could do.
Wales won.
As for who was better, I’d say it is pretty hard to say. There wasn’t enough flow in the game. Wales played the ref well, England totally failed to do so, and coupled with a total loss of discipline at the end, that was the difference.
It was a shame as I thought there was a good game of proper rugby to be seen, and all we got was a ref who liked the sound of his own whistle.
Even as a Welshman the game is still out on the park for me. Yes, we won but, being honest, there's a hollowness to it.
Farrell is a fab player, no doubt, but, like Ford, he feels he is the one due to family legacies.
An old Irish colleague said to me many years ago, "Don't fear the son, he will never be his father, he just thinks he is!"
Boom78 said:
Trophy Husband said:
Yes, we won but, being honest, there's a hollowness to it.
Really?!? Not for me, we won 40-24 against the biggest and most well funded team in world rugby. No hollowness for me, you make own luck and chances and we were better on the day. 
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