Why not just remove gender restrictions on sport
Discussion
popeyewhite said:
8.4L 154 said:
There is a UK swimmer who held 22 national titles, one Olympic silver medal, six commonwealth medals, (two of each) a commonwealth record for 18 years and a master's record and a long list of national records.
So I take your one silver medal and a list of national records and raise you one Sharron Davies.
The phrase in poker is "I'll raise you...", you don't 'take' anything. Regarding your point that Davies won a number of titles - you seem to have missed the point entirely. It took Davies 14 years to do that, from the European championships in '76 to The Olympics in Auckland in '90, with no world records. The individual you are comparing Davies to had a rather more meteoric rise, unsurprisingly, as she/he was intersex. In 9 years she left her running counterparts trailing (literally) and claimed a world record. Davies put in the work, basically, the runner from Burundi had a huge advantage over their direct competitors. I'd suggest the two scenarios are completely different.So I take your one silver medal and a list of national records and raise you one Sharron Davies.
andyA700 said:
popeyewhite said:
8.4L 154 said:
There is a UK swimmer who held 22 national titles, one Olympic silver medal, six commonwealth medals, (two of each) a commonwealth record for 18 years and a master's record and a long list of national records.
So I take your one silver medal and a list of national records and raise you one Sharron Davies.
The phrase in poker is "I'll raise you...", you don't 'take' anything. Regarding your point that Davies won a number of titles - you seem to have missed the point entirely. It took Davies 14 years to do that, from the European championships in '76 to The Olympics in Auckland in '90, with no world records. The individual you are comparing Davies to had a rather more meteoric rise, unsurprisingly, as she/he was intersex. In 9 years she left her running counterparts trailing (literally) and claimed a world record. Davies put in the work, basically, the runner from Burundi had a huge advantage over their direct competitors. I'd suggest the two scenarios are completely different.So I take your one silver medal and a list of national records and raise you one Sharron Davies.
Not to mention returning to the top of her sport after a 9 year gap and being successful at age 30. Something i'm sure you have claimed was a sure sign of unfairness in trans athletes.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Wednesday 6th April 12:05
popeyewhite said:
8.4L 154 said:
Well lets ignore Sharron in her swimming, ...
...and carry on blithely, ignoring the fact the previous two posts prove you don't really understand the issue?The significant point I'm trying to make is sex testing in women's sports has a history of serious negative consequences for women. Those consequences ranging from sexual assault, medical assault, human rights violations and harassment.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Wednesday 6th April 16:12
8.4L 154 said:
popeyewhite said:
8.4L 154 said:
Well lets ignore Sharron in her swimming, ...
...and carry on blithely, ignoring the fact the previous two posts prove you don't really understand the issue?The significant point I'm trying to make is sex testing in women's sports has a history of serious negative consequences for women. Those consequences ranging from sexual assault, medical assault, human rights violations and harassment.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Wednesday 6th April 16:12
popeyewhite said:
Many more women will have their competitive careers threatened by these cheats, and, I suspect, would be more than happy to undergo sex tests in order to expose those who try to undermine fairness in their sport.
Who are the cheats? your attacking cis women, intersex women, women who's bodies don't meet your narrow definition.NB, I have barely mentioned trans women and where I have done it's been to make it clear I am not referring to them.
article said:
The problems with the exclusive reliance on a single sex characteristic, and indeed the harms of sex testing, came to widespread attention in 1985, when the IOC disqualified Spanish hurdler Maria José Martínez-Patiño.[24] Officials subjected Martínez-Patiño to sex testing using chromosomal tests. After officials deemed her “chromosomally male” and barred her from competition in the World University Games, her results were leaked to the press.[25] She was then dropped by the Spanish Athletics Federation, her medals and records were withdrawn along with her university scholarship, and her boyfriend left her. Three years later, she was reinstated after having challenged the disqualification, but by then she had suffered significant harm.
Here is a passage from the article I linked earlier.Such fairness, but this is what your advocating for. There is also many more harrowing accounts contained in that article relating to the abuse served up to cisgender women at the hands of governing sports bodies carrying out sex testing.
source
8.4L 154 said:
popeyewhite said:
8.4L 154 said:
Well lets ignore Sharron in her swimming, ...
...and carry on blithely, ignoring the fact the previous two posts prove you don't really understand the issue?The significant point I'm trying to make is sex testing in women's sports has a history of serious negative consequences for women. Those consequences ranging from sexual assault, medical assault, human rights violations and harassment.
Edited by 8.4L 154 on Wednesday 6th April 16:12
8.4L 154 said:
article said:
The problems with the exclusive reliance on a single sex characteristic, and indeed the harms of sex testing, came to widespread attention in 1985, when the IOC disqualified Spanish hurdler Maria José Martínez-Patiño.[24] Officials subjected Martínez-Patiño to sex testing using chromosomal tests. After officials deemed her “chromosomally male” and barred her from competition in the World University Games, her results were leaked to the press.[25] She was then dropped by the Spanish Athletics Federation, her medals and records were withdrawn along with her university scholarship, and her boyfriend left her. Three years later, she was reinstated after having challenged the disqualification, but by then she had suffered significant harm.
Here is a passage from the article I linked earlier.Such fairness, but this is what your advocating for. There is also many more harrowing accounts contained in that article relating to the abuse served up to cisgender women at the hands of governing sports bodies carrying out sex testing.
source
8.4L 154 said:
article said:
The problems with the exclusive reliance on a single sex characteristic, and indeed the harms of sex testing, came to widespread attention in 1985, when the IOC disqualified Spanish hurdler Maria José Martínez-Patiño.[24] Officials subjected Martínez-Patiño to sex testing using chromosomal tests. After officials deemed her “chromosomally male” and barred her from competition in the World University Games, her results were leaked to the press.[25] She was then dropped by the Spanish Athletics Federation, her medals and records were withdrawn along with her university scholarship, and her boyfriend left her. Three years later, she was reinstated after having challenged the disqualification, but by then she had suffered significant harm.
Here is a passage from the article I linked earlier.Such fairness, but this is what your advocating for. There is also many more harrowing accounts contained in that article relating to the abuse served up to cisgender women at the hands of governing sports bodies carrying out sex testing.
source
I suppose there isn’t really an easy solution, as those who believe trans people have a right to compete regardless of any potential biological advantages won’t accept the argument. Their need to justify trans women as women overrides any rational discussion on sport. Which I suspect actually causes more harm for the average trans woman just trying to live her life and get on in the real world.
So maybe we address the symptom. In this case it seems to be predominantly older trans women who were average professional male athletes wanting to compete after transitioning in later life.
So the rules could be changed to a similar system of representing your nation*. If over the age of 18 you represented as a male or female, you can’t later compete in the other category.
Seems fair that if you got 1 England cap at 19 but never made the squad again. But at 37 identify as Sammarinese you cant now play for San Marino. No matter how strongly you identify as being from San Marino or how easily you can walk into the team.
So maybe we address the symptom. In this case it seems to be predominantly older trans women who were average professional male athletes wanting to compete after transitioning in later life.
So the rules could be changed to a similar system of representing your nation*. If over the age of 18 you represented as a male or female, you can’t later compete in the other category.
Seems fair that if you got 1 England cap at 19 but never made the squad again. But at 37 identify as Sammarinese you cant now play for San Marino. No matter how strongly you identify as being from San Marino or how easily you can walk into the team.
- I am aware the rules on this have probably been relaxed over the years and I’m sure someone has represented half a dozen countries.
QJumper said:
RobbieTheTruth said:
Randy Winkman said:
FredericRobinson said:
Was wondering why curling is split by sex when watching the winter olympics
Fair question. My suggestion is that it's simply because it doubles the opportunity to compete and win stuff. Everyone's a winner. 
PomBstard said:
andyA700 said:
No athlete with XY chromosomes should ever be competing in the women's category.
IMO, this is the bit that simplifies everything. It’s simple, it’s clear, and it removes all doubt. It does not stop anyone doing anything, athletes are free to continue playing and competing but if they have XY they do not compete in XX categories.
The other arguments about natural advantages, Michael Phelps and his feet for example, are just part of what makes some people better at some sports than others. It used to be the same for a rugby union team - you could tell which position they played simply by their physique, not quite so clear these days. Pole vaulters tend to be quite different to shot putters. There aren’t many short basketball players. Pick a sport and there are generally favourable physical attributes.
Natural advantage is everywhere. Any of the top guys will have something physically that once combined with the right training just elevates them all the way to the top. This is just how it is. You can train all you want, but the guy built like Phelps is probably going to beat you without trying. We had a guy like this in my old club, he could train half as much and he’d still be able to rock up and post the best times out of anyone. It’s gutting when you’ve poured your heart into getting better, but it’s just life.
Otispunkmeyer said:
PomBstard said:
andyA700 said:
No athlete with XY chromosomes should ever be competing in the women's category.
IMO, this is the bit that simplifies everything. It’s simple, it’s clear, and it removes all doubt. It does not stop anyone doing anything, athletes are free to continue playing and competing but if they have XY they do not compete in XX categories.
The other arguments about natural advantages, Michael Phelps and his feet for example, are just part of what makes some people better at some sports than others. It used to be the same for a rugby union team - you could tell which position they played simply by their physique, not quite so clear these days. Pole vaulters tend to be quite different to shot putters. There aren’t many short basketball players. Pick a sport and there are generally favourable physical attributes.
Natural advantage is everywhere. Any of the top guys will have something physically that once combined with the right training just elevates them all the way to the top. This is just how it is. You can train all you want, but the guy built like Phelps is probably going to beat you without trying. We had a guy like this in my old club, he could train half as much and he’d still be able to rock up and post the best times out of anyone. It’s gutting when you’ve poured your heart into getting better, but it’s just life.
Countdown said:
a_dreamer said:
We have seen lots in recent years about equal pay, tennis, the us football team and others have all made progress here. Then we have the issue of people who have changed their gender. This does appear to be men becoming women and then wanting to compete rather than the other way round, but it's likely to become more widespread.
Today is the boat race, first the women, then the men. Why don't we just get rid of this and have sport open to all genders. Simply then we have the best competitors competing regardless of what their gender is
Premier League could do it next season as all league teams have a female team. Just combine them?
Same with tennis. Open up the draw to the same number as the female and male tournaments, but just have one big competition.
Would kill the argument on the pay and would mean everyone can compete at the highest level if they are good enough.
It's a bit like scrapping different classes of Motor racing and amalgamating Karting in with F1 - it would become boring if an F! car self-identified as a Formula Ford.Today is the boat race, first the women, then the men. Why don't we just get rid of this and have sport open to all genders. Simply then we have the best competitors competing regardless of what their gender is
Premier League could do it next season as all league teams have a female team. Just combine them?
Same with tennis. Open up the draw to the same number as the female and male tournaments, but just have one big competition.
Would kill the argument on the pay and would mean everyone can compete at the highest level if they are good enough.
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