Fantasy Six Nations

[thegreatsoprendo]

360stimo said:

Welsh back with the exception of Hook, Thomas Shane Williams, Shanklin, Stephen Jones, Kevin Morgan and Peel are vastly over-rated.

Fixed it for you.

360stimo said:

The Irish backs are currently the best in Europe, but some are getting on and not too many player coming though in key positions.

I thought they lacked strength in depth too, until I saw the likes of Issac Boss and Paddy Wallace playing in the Autumn Internationals. Most disconcerting it was.

360stimo said:

The above English backline is seriously young. Morgan, Tait, Geraghty under 23, Ellis, JSD under 26, Farrell has two seasons and Lewsey will retire after the World Cup. Good job we have Anthony Allen and Tom Varndell to replace them. My comment should have read 'will be as good as anything in Europe'

Or even more accurately 'could be as good as anything in Europe'. Any nation can point to youngsters with massive potential, but that's an entirely different thing to being 'as good as anything in Europe'. To be fair, England's forwards are streets ahead of their backs, so if their backs were indeed as good as anything in Europe, then England would undoubtedly be the best team in Europe and that's clearly not the case at present.

360stimo said:

Wales are a good team but they were never as good as the Welsh thought/think they are/were.

Really? Tell me - how good do the Welsh think Wales are, then?

360stimo said:

Lewsey is not Welsh, he is English. If you play that game you can go through every team in the world and name the 'foreign' players. Pointless

Well quite! It was nothing more than a tongue in cheek comment, hence the smiley! Lewsey is in fact Welsh by parentage and English by birth. No probs with that, he was developed through the English system after all, but it's interesting that he chooses to use his anglicised middle name rather than his more celtic first name.

[360stimo]

thegreatsoprendo said:

360stimo said:

Welsh back with the exception of Hook, Thomas Shane Williams, Shanklin, Stephen Jones, Kevin Morgan and Peel are vastly over-rated.

Fixed it for you.

360stimo said:

The Irish backs are currently the best in Europe, but some are getting on and not too many player coming though in key positions.

I thought they lacked strength in depth too, until I saw the likes of Issac Boss and Paddy Wallace playing in the Autumn Internationals. Most disconcerting it was.

360stimo said:

The above English backline is seriously young. Morgan, Tait, Geraghty under 23, Ellis, JSD under 26, Farrell has two seasons and Lewsey will retire after the World Cup. Good job we have Anthony Allen and Tom Varndell to replace them. My comment should have read 'will be as good as anything in Europe'

Or even more accurately 'could be as good as anything in Europe'. Any nation can point to youngsters with massive potential, but that's an entirely different thing to being 'as good as anything in Europe'. To be fair, England's forwards are streets ahead of their backs, so if their backs were indeed as good as anything in Europe, then England would undoubtedly be the best team in Europe and that's clearly not the case at present.

360stimo said:

Wales are a good team but they were never as good as the Welsh thought/think they are/were.

Really? Tell me - how good do the Welsh think Wales are, then?

360stimo said:

Lewsey is not Welsh, he is English. If you play that game you can go through every team in the world and name the 'foreign' players. Pointless

Well quite! It was nothing more than a tongue in cheek comment, hence the smiley! Lewsey is in fact Welsh by parentage and English by birth. No probs with that, he was developed through the English system after all, but it's interesting that he chooses to use his anglicised middle name rather than his more celtic first name.

Sorry, Shanklin, could possibly be added to that list, but Shane Williams, Stephen Jones and Kevin Morgan. Please

Wales in the modern era have never ever been able to consistantly beat SH opposition, home or away. Thats the real bench mark in rugby. Especially away. It also means you are genuine world champion contenders, which the Welsh suddenly thought they were after the grand slam.
Unfortunatly there has only been one team in Europe that has been able to beat SH teams home and away. Everyone keeps hoping France will wake up and do it one day, but never happens.

The amount of South Africans we have playing for England now and in the past is quite amazing

[thegreatsoprendo]

360stimo said:

Sorry, Shanklin, could possibly be added to that list, but Shane Williams, Stephen Jones and Kevin Morgan. Please

Shanklin and Kev Morgan - the two most under-rated players in the Welsh team. Stephen Jones spent a couple of seasons at one of the top French club sides - Clermont (Montferrand) and while he was there was voted best outside half in the French league. That alone must tell you something about his ability?

360stimo said:

Wales in the modern era have never ever been able to consistantly beat SH opposition, home or away. Thats the real bench mark in rugby.

True enough.

360stimo said:

It also means you are genuine world champion contenders, which the Welsh suddenly thought they were after the grand slam.

Did they? I don't know of any. Over the last 25 years we've got pretty used to being crap and having a seemingly endless series of false dawns. I think most, including me, viewed the success of 2005 more in hope than expectation that it would turn out differently to any of the previous false dawns. And it's worth pointing out that even in darkest of dark days, our problem was never a lack of world class backs, more a dearth of a pack of big, gritty and gifted forwards to go with them.

360stimo said:

Unfortunatly there has only been one team in Europe that has been able to beat SH teams home and away. Everyone keeps hoping France will wake up and do it one day, but never happens.

Well that depends how far you want to delve into history, but let's not go there as it's not hugely relavent to the here and now. Unfortunately there's nobody in Europe that can consisently win home and away against SH opposition at the moment - certainly not the All Blacks - and the closest team we have to getting there plays in green.
[/quote]

Anyway, getting back on topic, my fantasy team is in, but there's no English backs for me (yet! )....

[disco1]

360stimo said:

Sorry, Shanklin, could possibly be added to that list, but Shane Williams, Stephen Jones and Kevin Morgan. Please

Wales in the modern era have never ever been able to consistantly beat SH opposition, home or away. Thats the real bench mark in rugby. Especially away. It also means you are genuine world champion contenders, which the Welsh suddenly thought they were after the grand slam.
Unfortunatly there has only been one team in Europe that has been able to beat SH teams home and away. Everyone keeps hoping France will wake up and do it one day, but never happens.

The amount of South Africans we have playing for England now and in the past is quite amazing

Shane is the best one on one attacker in the northern hem by a country mile, always beats the first man and in broken play is dynamite.

Jones does the basics well week in week out, this is the most important thing at 10

Kev is slight in build but clatters into the tackle area, whippet around the park covering all areas and potent in attack, hits holes in defences every game I have seen him play.

I think Wales gives a very good account of itself against the tri nation teams considering the player base we have.

Although the current english backs are good club players they simply are not good enough for international level, no real ball-skills or pace. However, England will do better than everyone makes out, 3rd/4th?

[thegreatsoprendo]

disco1 said:

Shane is the best one on one attacker in the northern hem by a country mile, always beats the first man and in broken play is dynamite.

Jones does the basics well week in week out, this is the most important thing at 10

Kev is slight in build but clatters into the tackle area, whippet around the park covering all areas and potent in attack, hits holes in defences every game I have seen him play.

Pretty much agree with that. I had a look on youtube for some clips of Shane to illustrate the point, but there's not much on there other than still pics set to music. If you can, take a look at the highlights of the Italy v Wales game from 2005, where there are some great examples of his ability in broken play. As you say, this is where he excels, and is undoubtedly among the top players in the world in that regard. Some of the breaks I've seen him make playing for the Ospreys have been nothing short of breathtaking.

Kevin Morgan is another great counter attacking player. Like Shane he's quite small and blessed with great pace, but the best thing about his game is the lines he runs which consistently create opportunities that would never arise with another player at full back.

As for England, I also agree they will do better than many expect them to - particularly if they revert to playing to their traditional strengths of a forward oriented kick and clap game. It'll be interesting to see how Brian Ashton plays it, but they can't be any worse than they were under Robinson where they were just clueless and directionless.

[360stimo]

Sorry Guys, Shane Williams is just like Stephen Jones. A decent international player and no more. M.Jones is a far better winger than Williams. In fact Williams hasn't been a first choice winger for Wales in the last year.

Clermont are hardly the cream of French rugby.

[thegreatsoprendo]

360stimo said:

Sorry Guys, Shane Williams is just like Stephen Jones. A decent international player and no more. M.Jones is a far better winger than Williams. In fact Williams hasn't been a first choice winger for Wales in the last year.

I can't remember when Shane Williams wasn't a first choice winger for Wales, but it certainly wasn't in the last year. Mark Jones is a more traditional winger but certainly not a better one. He's a good athlete and pretty pacy, but he's got nothing like the acceleration and game breaking ability that Shane has.

360stimo said:

Clermont are hardly the cream of French rugby.

So surely it's all the more remarkable that Stephen Jones was recognised as the best outside half in France despite the handicap of playing for a club that are "hardly the cream of French rugby"?

[360stimo]

thegreatsoprendo said:

360stimo said:

Sorry Guys, Shane Williams is just like Stephen Jones. A decent international player and no more. M.Jones is a far better winger than Williams. In fact Williams hasn't been a first choice winger for Wales in the last year.

I can't remember when Shane Williams wasn't a first choice winger for Wales, but it certainly wasn't in the last year. Mark Jones is a more traditional winger but certainly not a better one. He's a good athlete and pretty pacy, but he's got nothing like the acceleration and game breaking ability that Shane has.

360stimo said:

Clermont are hardly the cream of French rugby.

So surely it's all the more remarkable that Stephen Jones was recognised as the best outside half in France despite the handicap of playing for a club that are "hardly the cream of French rugby"?

Mark Jones has better running lines, he's stronger runner, stronger in the tackle, Shane Williams defensively is a massive weakness, M.Jones is a good defender. His ball presentation in ruck situation is 100 times better, his support at the breakdown is 100 times better. Shane Williams scores try's against poor opposition and occasionally an incredable try against a good team. Bit like Tony Yeboah at Leeds.

Who recognised Jones as the best outside half in France?

Im not slating Jones, he is a decent player, but there is now way he is any better than that. No-one currently playing in the Northern Hemsiphere is a class 10. There are some potential players coming through for Wales and England, but Ronan O'Gara is currently the best 10 in Europe. Says it all.

Edited by 360stimo on Friday 26th January 10:50

[disco1]

Ickle Shane is the most entertaining player around, if you can't see this then you simply don't appreciate rugby the way it should be played.

I love it when he goes to fly half, the opposite numbers simply don't know what to do leaving massive holes between 9,10 and 12.

Rugby should be about trickery, slight of hand and cunningness', not bludgeoning centres and forwards.

[disco1]

360stimo said:

Who recognised Jones as the best outside half in France?

Edited by 360stimo on Friday 26th January 10:50

The press sports journos

[thegreatsoprendo]

360stimo said:

Mark Jones has better running lines, he's stronger runner, stronger in the tackle, Shane Williams defensively is a massive weakness, M.Jones is a good defender. His ball presentation in ruck situation is 100 times better, his support at the breakdown is 100 times better. Shane Williams scores try's against poor opposition and occasionally an incredable try against a good team. Bit like Tony Yeboah at Leeds.

Who recognised Jones as the best outside half in France?

Im not slating Jones, he is a decent player, but there is now way he is any better than that. No-one currently playing in the Northern Hemsiphere is a class 10. There are some potential players coming through for Wales and England, but Ronan O'Gara is currently the best 10 in Europe. Says it all.

Well I don't think we're going to agree on the Shane v Jones issue - I think you're looking for something different to me in your wingers.

I do agree with you on the dearth of talent in the fly half position in the Northern Hemisphere, though. ROG looks OK when he gets an armchair ride behind the Munster pack, but his defence is shaky to say the least and he can lose the plot under pressure. Witness the Grand Slam game in 2005 where he threw all his toys out of the pram and was rapidly replaced by David Humphreys after which Ireland improved drastically. I don't think ROG does anything much better than Jones, but does some things noticably worse, probably why Jones was preferred ahead of him for the Lions test teams.

Stephen Jones was voted best fly half in France by Midi Olympique, the bi weekly French rugby magazine, specialising in rugby.

FWIW, Jonathan Davies seems to agree with them towards the end of this article.

jiffy said:

When he was over there last season Stephen Jones was the best outside half in France by a mile.

Of course, I should qualify all this by saying that although Jones is a highly accomplished all round player, he's certainly no Dan Carter and wouldn't get particularly close to the top of my list of all time Welsh outside halfs. I do think, though, that he's as good as anything else in Europe at present.

Edited by thegreatsoprendo on Friday 26th January 12:24

[disco1]

thegreatsoprendo said:

360stimo said:

Mark Jones has better running lines, he's stronger runner, stronger in the tackle, Shane Williams defensively is a massive weakness, M.Jones is a good defender. His ball presentation in ruck situation is 100 times better, his support at the breakdown is 100 times better. Shane Williams scores try's against poor opposition and occasionally an incredable try against a good team. Bit like Tony Yeboah at Leeds.

Who recognised Jones as the best outside half in France?

Im not slating Jones, he is a decent player, but there is now way he is any better than that. No-one currently playing in the Northern Hemsiphere is a class 10. There are some potential players coming through for Wales and England, but Ronan O'Gara is currently the best 10 in Europe. Says it all.

Well I don't think we're going to agree on the Shane v Jones issue - I think you're looking for something different to me in your wingers.

I do agree with you on the dearth of talent in the fly half position in the Northern Hemisphere, though. ROG looks OK when he gets an armchair ride behind the Munster pack, but his defence is shaky to say the least and he can lose the plot under pressure. Witness the Grand Slam game in 2005 where he threw all his toys out of the pram and was rapidly replaced by David Humphreys after which Ireland improved drastically. I don't think ROG does anything much better than Jones, but does some things noticably worse, probably why Jones was preferred ahead of him for the Lions test teams.

Stephen Jones was voted best fly half in France by Midi Olympique, the bi weekly French rugby magazine, specialising in rugby.

FWIW, Jonathan Davies seems to agree with them towards the end of this article.

jiffy said:

When he was over there last season Stephen Jones was the best outside half in France by a mile.

Of course, I should qualify all this by saying that although Jones is a highly accomplished all round player, he's certainly no Dan Carter and wouldn't get particularly close to the top of my list of all time Welsh outside halfs. I do think, though, that he's as good as anything else in Europe at present.

Edited by thegreatsoprendo on Friday 26th January 12:24

[360stimo]

disco1 said:

Ickle Shane is the most entertaining player around, if you can't see this then you simply don't appreciate rugby the way it should be played.

I love it when he goes to fly half, the opposite numbers simply don't know what to do leaving massive holes between 9,10 and 12.

Rugby should be about trickery, slight of hand and cunningness', not bludgeoning centres and forwards.

Absolute CRAP

Won't go into anymore detail about how ignorant and utterly stupid your above post is. You obviously know nothing about this game and have never played.

RUGBY IS NOT ABOUT SHOW PONYS

Edited by 360stimo on Friday 26th January 14:06

[360stimo]

thegreatsoprendo said:

360stimo said:

Mark Jones has better running lines, he's stronger runner, stronger in the tackle, Shane Williams defensively is a massive weakness, M.Jones is a good defender. His ball presentation in ruck situation is 100 times better, his support at the breakdown is 100 times better. Shane Williams scores try's against poor opposition and occasionally an incredable try against a good team. Bit like Tony Yeboah at Leeds.

Who recognised Jones as the best outside half in France?

Im not slating Jones, he is a decent player, but there is now way he is any better than that. No-one currently playing in the Northern Hemsiphere is a class 10. There are some potential players coming through for Wales and England, but Ronan O'Gara is currently the best 10 in Europe. Says it all.

Well I don't think we're going to agree on the Shane v Jones issue - I think you're looking for something different to me in your wingers.

I do agree with you on the dearth of talent in the fly half position in the Northern Hemisphere, though. ROG looks OK when he gets an armchair ride behind the Munster pack, but his defence is shaky to say the least and he can lose the plot under pressure. Witness the Grand Slam game in 2005 where he threw all his toys out of the pram and was rapidly replaced by David Humphreys after which Ireland improved drastically. I don't think ROG does anything much better than Jones, but does some things noticably worse, probably why Jones was preferred ahead of him for the Lions test teams.

Stephen Jones was voted best fly half in France by Midi Olympique, the bi weekly French rugby magazine, specialising in rugby.

FWIW, Jonathan Davies seems to agree with them towards the end of this article.

jiffy said:

When he was over there last season Stephen Jones was the best outside half in France by a mile.

Of course, I should qualify all this by saying that although Jones is a highly accomplished all round player, he's certainly no Dan Carter and wouldn't get particularly close to the top of my list of all time Welsh outside halfs. I do think, though, that he's as good as anything else in Europe at present.

Edited by thegreatsoprendo on Friday 26th January 12:24

Ok, compare Jones to Carter and Larkham, two class 10's and you you might see what im getting at. James Hook is already a better fly half and offers more than Jones. Its only the fact hthat Gavin Henson is such a wasted talent that Hook will end up at 12 and not 10

[thegreatsoprendo]

360stimo said:

disco1 said:

Ickle Shane is the most entertaining player around, if you can't see this then you simply don't appreciate rugby the way it should be played.

I love it when he goes to fly half, the opposite numbers simply don't know what to do leaving massive holes between 9,10 and 12.

Rugby should be about trickery, slight of hand and cunningness', not bludgeoning centres and forwards.

Absolute CRAP

Won't go into anymore detail about how ignorant and utterly stupid your above post is. You obviously know nothing about this game and have never played.

RUGBY IS NOT ABOUT SHOW PONYS

Edited by 360stimo on Friday 26th January 14:06

That's a bit harsh and uncalled for if you don't mind me saying so! I know something about rugby and have played with several players who went on to become internationals and Lions, and I think he has a valid point.

It's not a question of show ponys. Yes, of course you need your big, streetwise forwards to do the grunt work and supply good ball, but you equally need the artisan in the backs with the pace, guile and vision to break down organised modern defences. Do you think Dan Carter, Rico Gear and Sivivatu are "show ponys"? Maybe you thought Rupeni CauCau, Campese, Barry John, Jonathan Davies and Serge Blanco were also "show ponys"?

Of course, rugby can be played without this type of player. You could play with 15 6ft4in 17 stone lumps, of course, but not only would it would be less effective, but would crucially rob the game of a huge chunk of its spectator appeal, which is the point I tink Disco was trying to make. As Gerald Davies so eruditely put it, "The sidestep is the small man's act of retribution. In a game of big men this is one moment of revenge." Players such as those listed above and, yes, Shane Williams are the type that people love to see play and get the crowd on their feet when they get their hands on the ball.

360stimo said:

Ok, compare Jones to Carter and Larkham, two class 10's and you you might see what im getting at. James Hook is already a better fly half and offers more than Jones. Its only the fact hthat Gavin Henson is such a wasted talent that Hook will end up at 12 and not 10

I do see what you're getting at. I've already said that Stephen Jones isn't in the same league as Carter and the same goes, albeit to a lesser extent, for Larkham. He is however an extremely accomplished outside half.

As far as James Hook, I don't beleive he's as good a 10 as Jones yet, and I fully expect Jones to get the nod at outside half for the Ireland game. However Hook has huge potential and has already proved he can cut it in the international arena. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he surpassed Jones over the next year or so, and if he does so, he could well end up at 10 for Wales. A by-product of that would also be to resolve the Hook/Henson dilemma at 12!

[360stimo]

thegreatsoprendo said:

360stimo said:

disco1 said:

Ickle Shane is the most entertaining player around, if you can't see this then you simply don't appreciate rugby the way it should be played.

I love it when he goes to fly half, the opposite numbers simply don't know what to do leaving massive holes between 9,10 and 12.

Rugby should be about trickery, slight of hand and cunningness', not bludgeoning centres and forwards.

Absolute CRAP

Won't go into anymore detail about how ignorant and utterly stupid your above post is. You obviously know nothing about this game and have never played.

RUGBY IS NOT ABOUT SHOW PONYS

Edited by 360stimo on Friday 26th January 14:06

That's a bit harsh and uncalled for if you don't mind me saying so! I know something about rugby and have played with several players who went on to become internationals and Lions, and I think he has a valid point.

It's not a question of show ponys. Yes, of course you need your big, streetwise forwards to do the grunt work and supply good ball, but you equally need the artisan in the backs with the pace, guile and vision to break down organised modern defences. Do you think Dan Carter, Rico Gear and Sivivatu are "show ponys"? Maybe you thought Rupeni CauCau, Campese, Barry John, Jonathan Davies and Serge Blanco were also "show ponys"?

Of course, rugby can be played without this type of player. You could play with 15 6ft4in 17 stone lumps, of course, but not only would it would be less effective, but would crucially rob the game of a huge chunk of its spectator appeal, which is the point I tink Disco was trying to make. As Gerald Davies so eruditely put it, "The sidestep is the small man's act of retribution. In a game of big men this is one moment of revenge." Players such as those listed above and, yes, Shane Williams are the type that people love to see play and get the crowd on their feet when they get their hands on the ball.

360stimo said:

Ok, compare Jones to Carter and Larkham, two class 10's and you you might see what im getting at. James Hook is already a better fly half and offers more than Jones. Its only the fact hthat Gavin Henson is such a wasted talent that Hook will end up at 12 and not 10

I do see what you're getting at. I've already said that Stephen Jones isn't in the same league as Carter and the same goes, albeit to a lesser extent, for Larkham. He is however an extremely accomplished outside half.

As far as James Hook, I don't beleive he's as good a 10 as Jones yet, and I fully expect Jones to get the nod at outside half for the Ireland game. However Hook has huge potential and has already proved he can cut it in the international arena. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he surpassed Jones over the next year or so, and if he does so, he could well end up at 10 for Wales. A by-product of that would also be to resolve the Hook/Henson dilemma at 12!

My point is that rugby never has been and never will be about slight of hand, side steps and flowing running rugby. Its about a balance of everything and any succesful rugby team will have big, strong, hard running forwards, mixed with a dynamic back row who are good on the floor, tackle hard , turn over ball and get involved with the backs.

In the backs you have a mixture of pace, power, skill levels. Look at the most succesful England backline ever. Dawson had a good pass off both hands, a good box kick and was direct. Wilkinson was a great kicker, amazingly solid in defense which shuts off a bit channel of attack oppostion back rows like to attack, very strong and had a good pass. Will Greenwood (most under rated player to ever play the game), was strong, not very quick, but creative, could create space for himself and others and then supply the pass to put them away. Mike Tindall. A big strong centre, who carried well, stop attackers on the gain line, helped create turnovers by getting his hands dirty on the ground and was a decent kicking option at 13. Jason Robinson who had all the tricks and the pace of anyone, 1 on 1, better than anyone. Cohen, strong, quick, direct winger who scored try's. Lewsey, possibly the man who was never excpetional at anything, but did everything to a high level.

As i have stated before, rugby has never been and will never be all about slight of hand, side steps etc etc. Mike Tindall, Stirling Mortlock, Tana Umaga or just as important as Rico Gear, Carter, Robinson.Fact. Great teams can adapt their style of play to weather conditions and playing conditions.

Obviously the poster who wants all fancy dans and show ponies couldnt appreciate a game like Munster vs Tigers at the weekend. One of the best games i have ever seen.

Just like to add that the French back are probably the most talented in the world, but they are , with the exception of Jauzion, show ponies and France have never consistantly won anything and Never consistantly performed either.

Edited by 360stimo on Friday 26th January 15:54

[thegreatsoprendo]

360stimo said:

My point is that rugby never has been and never will be about slight of hand, side steps and flowing running rugby. Its about a balance of everything and any succesful rugby team will have big, strong, hard running forwards, mixed with a dynamic back row who are good on the floor, tackle hard , turn over ball and get involved with the backs.

In the backs you have a mixture of pace, power, skill levels. Look at the most succesful England backline ever. Dawson had a good pass off both hands, a good box kick and was direct. Wilkinson was a great kicker, amazingly solid in defense which shuts off a bit channel of attack oppostion back rows like to attack, very strong and had a good pass. Will Greenwood (most under rated player to ever play the game), was strong, not very quick, but creative, could create space for himself and others and then supply the pass to put them away. Mike Tindall. A big strong centre, who carried well, stop attackers on the gain line, helped create turnovers by getting his hands dirty on the ground and was a decent kicking option at 13. Jason Robinson who had all the tricks and the pace of anyone, 1 on 1, better than anyone. Cohen, strong, quick, direct winger who scored try's. Lewsey, possibly the man who was never excpetional at anything, but did everything to a high level.

As i have stated before, rugby has never been and will never be all about slight of hand, side steps etc etc. Mike Tindall, Stirling Mortlock, Tana Umaga or just as important as Rico Gear, Carter, Robinson.Fact. Great teams can adapt their style of play to weather conditions and playing conditions.

Obviously the poster who wants all fancy dans and show ponies couldnt appreciate a game like Munster vs Tigers at the weekend. One of the best games i have ever seen.

Why is it that in most of your posts you seem to be vociferously agreeing with me? I don't fundamentally disagree with any of that (OK, maybe the bit about Greenwood being the most under-rated player of all time ). In your England example, Jason Robinson is precisely the sort of player I was talking about in my previous post that has the guile, elusiveness and quickness of thought and deed to unlock defences. That's exactly the role that Shane Williams plays for Wales. Of course you need the scrummagers, the kickers, the strong runners, the big tacklers and all the other elements that go to make up a well-rounded team, but I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest otherwise.

Handily, I've been sniffing around on youtube some more and I've found a clip that neatly illustrates two of my previous points - 1. ROG's woeful defending, and 2. Shane's attacking threat from first receiver and the fact that he might offer a little more physicality than you give him credit for.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pbljAP8FyI

There are also a few snippets of Shane in action in this one:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2gqTBeMP2w

[360stimo]

thegreatsoprendo said:

360stimo said:

My point is that rugby never has been and never will be about slight of hand, side steps and flowing running rugby. Its about a balance of everything and any succesful rugby team will have big, strong, hard running forwards, mixed with a dynamic back row who are good on the floor, tackle hard , turn over ball and get involved with the backs.

In the backs you have a mixture of pace, power, skill levels. Look at the most succesful England backline ever. Dawson had a good pass off both hands, a good box kick and was direct. Wilkinson was a great kicker, amazingly solid in defense which shuts off a bit channel of attack oppostion back rows like to attack, very strong and had a good pass. Will Greenwood (most under rated player to ever play the game), was strong, not very quick, but creative, could create space for himself and others and then supply the pass to put them away. Mike Tindall. A big strong centre, who carried well, stop attackers on the gain line, helped create turnovers by getting his hands dirty on the ground and was a decent kicking option at 13. Jason Robinson who had all the tricks and the pace of anyone, 1 on 1, better than anyone. Cohen, strong, quick, direct winger who scored try's. Lewsey, possibly the man who was never excpetional at anything, but did everything to a high level.

As i have stated before, rugby has never been and will never be all about slight of hand, side steps etc etc. Mike Tindall, Stirling Mortlock, Tana Umaga or just as important as Rico Gear, Carter, Robinson.Fact. Great teams can adapt their style of play to weather conditions and playing conditions.

Obviously the poster who wants all fancy dans and show ponies couldnt appreciate a game like Munster vs Tigers at the weekend. One of the best games i have ever seen.

Why is it that in most of your posts you seem to be vociferously agreeing with me? I don't fundamentally disagree with any of that (OK, maybe the bit about Greenwood being the most under-rated player of all time ). In your England example, Jason Robinson is precisely the sort of player I was talking about in my previous post that has the guile, elusiveness and quickness of thought and deed to unlock defences. That's exactly the role that Shane Williams plays for Wales. Of course you need the scrummagers, the kickers, the strong runners, the big tacklers and all the other elements that go to make up a well-rounded team, but I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest otherwise.

Handily, I've been sniffing around on youtube some more and I've found a clip that neatly illustrates two of my previous points - 1. ROG's woeful defending, and 2. Shane's attacking threat from first receiver and the fact that he might offer a little more physicality than you give him credit for.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pbljAP8FyI

There are also a few snippets of Shane in action in this one:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2gqTBeMP2w

Ronan O'Gara cannot defend. Thats a given, but he can control a game better than anyone in Europe.

Jason Robinson was a far better player than Williams. He had all the attacking attributes, the best side step i have ever seen but not only that, that guy for his size ewas freakishly strong and a good tackler. You can't play at full back if your weak in defense. Shane Williams is an much a liability as he is an attacking threat, which was highlighted in the Wales vs NZ game where he was totally out of his depth. If he doesn't get the ball going forward in good positions he is next to useless. Probably the same reason Tom Varndell isn't currently in the England Squad.

[disco1]

360istimo, you're so full of s%^& it is almost laughable. Funny thing is that most England fans have the same thought process as you.

The 10 man game that England and its clubs play (inc munster) is drab and predictable and robs the fans of entertainment. Rugby is a game, look up the word 'game' in a dictionary, I think you will find it means entertainment. People this side of the border go watch rugby to be entertained, not kick and clap in wax jackets.

I played from mini rugby up to senior level in Welsh Div 2, played against many big names so I like to think I know about rugby and what it means.

Robinson was not a good defender, easily bumped in the tackle area. He was electric in attack and the only player in a white shirt to get the crowds on its feet. Shame he only ever got the ball when it was miss-kicked by the opposition.

Greenwood was never 'underated' as you mention, he was widely regarded as one of the most reliable centres in world rugby.

Anyway, back to Shane.. He is one of the first names I check for on the Ospreys and Wales teamsheets, full of skills that can turn games.

[360stimo]

disco1 said:

360istimo, you're so full of s%^& it is almost laughable. Funny thing is that most England fans have the same thought process as you.

The 10 man game that England and its clubs play (inc munster) is drab and predictable and robs the fans of entertainment. Rugby is a game, look up the word 'game' in a dictionary, I think you will find it means entertainment. People this side of the border go watch rugby to be entertained, not kick and clap in wax jackets.

I played from mini rugby up to senior level in Welsh Div 2, played against many big names so I like to think I know about rugby and what it means.

Robinson was not a good defender, easily bumped in the tackle area. He was electric in attack and the only player in a white shirt to get the crowds on its feet. Shame he only ever got the ball when it was miss-kicked by the opposition.

Greenwood was never 'underated' as you mention, he was widely regarded as one of the most reliable centres in world rugby.

Anyway, back to Shane.. He is one of the first names I check for on the Ospreys and Wales teamsheets, full of skills that can turn games.

Ha Ha, im going to send you the book 'bluffers guide to rugby' , your rugby intelligence is laughable. Sport is no longer about entertaining the crowd, its about winnig. I can't be bothered to educate you on why Rugby went from amatuer to proffesional and what in turn that means.

Do you think a Welsh coach who produces a team that plays amazing attacking rugby but loses every game would keep his job? No, because sport and rugby is about WINNING and results. Please tell me of a coach at a decent side/player in any posrt in the world who has kept his job when not winning? Entertainment is a very distant 3rd to success and money in sport.

England won the World Cup with a bad defender at 15 did they? You say he only got the ball from miss kicks from the opposition, that really shows how much about rugby you know. That England team are in the top two teams every to be produced by the NH, yes the other team were THAT Welsh team, but they could never beat the AB's could they?????
Shane Williams is an average winger. Myopic Welsh supporters think he's world class. thats laughable. Your right he can turn games, he can win them and lose them in the blink of an eye.
Kick, clap and wax jackets, thanks for showing your total ignorance and how much you like to generalise and steroetype. I won't sink to your level.

Wake up and understand proffesional rugby please and send me your address and i'll get that book to you quick smart before the 6 Nations starts.

Edited by 360stimo on Saturday 27th January 14:55