Johnny Wilkinson - Rugby Genius?
Discussion
He's flyhalf for god sake. You lot seem to have a real lack of understanding of positional influence. Yes, JW is a good player, yes he has a cracking boot, but he's No 10. His job is to call the plays based on what he sees - No 10 is a gift of a slot - you can see much more of the field and play from there.
He's good..but he's not THAT good.
He's good..but he's not THAT good.
It's not just the points that a good fly half can kick that gives a team a good footing,if the opposition know you have a consistent kicker then they are less likely to give away penalties which gives the game more chance to be played at a bit of pace.Always an advantage when you're attacking.
graham@edinburgh said:
He's flyhalf for god sake. You lot seem to have a real lack of understanding of positional influence. Yes, JW is a good player, yes he has a cracking boot, but he's No 10. His job is to call the plays based on what he sees - No 10 is a gift of a slot - you can see much more of the field and play from there.
He's good..but he's not THAT good.
He's good..but he's not THAT good.
you're looking at it the wrong way.
as long as the pask is solid and keeping, or turning over ball, then number 10 is ABSOLUTELY pivotal. a good number 10 means a team can play, an excellent number 10 usualy means a team wins, a crap number ten often means the team loses. 10 is NOT a gift slot, it's possibly the hardest spot on the fiel IMO (and i'm a prop/winger so it's a bit of surprise for me to admit that !)
JW makes every oppotunity count he has brilliant vision, reactions most would die for, and puts his body on the line all the time. most teams would win with him on the pitch to be honest.
that's not to say he was the only person that won the game today- whilst there was a HUGE amount to work on (like some of the play was totally uninspired, flat and unimaginitive) there were some excellent performances. As mentioned above Ellis, Robinson, and a couple of others had a stonking game. The front row had a torrid time of it with the scot front 3 really playing some very ditry tricks (although that's what the front is all about when you get down to it lol)
DocJock said:
He's not even the best right now for goodness sake.
Arw you seriously suggesting he's better than Dan Carter or Richie McCaw ?
Arw you seriously suggesting he's better than Dan Carter or Richie McCaw ?
Its ridiculous to compare McCaw to Carter.
At there best Wilko and Carter are even stevens. Both very different 10's. Carter fits perfectly into the New Zealand style of play and Wilko fits perfectly into the England style of play. Lets hope we get to see both players in fine form go head to head soon.
Best player ever ? JPR Williams, Barry John
Gun said:
Judging by his display in this evenings match, he's up there, Dan Carter is the best player in the world at the moment though. A lot of good performances though, Harry Ellis, Andy Farrell and Jo Worsley played well.
I thought Farrell was average at best. I lost count of the amount of hospital passes he threw
pugwash4x4 said:
not sure why anyone could say Dan carter is better than jonny.
for 18 months jonny was the best in the world. Dan carter was playing then and wasn't rated better than jonny.
granted there's not a lot in it, but as an all round player there's not many that can beat jonny if at all.
Dont' forget this bloke has played 40 minutes of test rugby in 1200 days!!!!!! he comes on and plays absolutely amazingly, great reading, excellent defense, great attack, brilliant kicking.
who else in the world could do that after not hitting a rugby pitch for over 2 years? dan carter might be the only one?
for 18 months jonny was the best in the world. Dan carter was playing then and wasn't rated better than jonny.
granted there's not a lot in it, but as an all round player there's not many that can beat jonny if at all.
Dont' forget this bloke has played 40 minutes of test rugby in 1200 days!!!!!! he comes on and plays absolutely amazingly, great reading, excellent defense, great attack, brilliant kicking.
who else in the world could do that after not hitting a rugby pitch for over 2 years? dan carter might be the only one?
Oh for gods sake. Carter was developing when Wilko was the best 10 in the world. Carter is very young. Your first two lines of your thread are ridiculous.
Carter is the best and form 10 in the past 3 years and one of the best 10's ever. Wilko is still some way off the form to get him up along side Carter and Larkham
360stimo said:
Oh for gods sake. Carter was developing when Wilko was the best 10 in the world. Carter is very young. Your first two lines of your thread are ridiculous.
Carter is the best and form 10 in the past 3 years and one of the best 10's ever. Wilko is still some way off the form to get him up along side Carter and Larkham
Carter is the best and form 10 in the past 3 years and one of the best 10's ever. Wilko is still some way off the form to get him up along side Carter and Larkham
'cos of course JW is really really old isn't he at 26! he's not reached his peak either.
You can't honestly be telling me that JW at peak is outclassed by Can carter at peak? There is a reason that BOTH of them were IRB player of the year- JW in 2003 and DC in 2005
what areas does Carter beat JW? having played against both (albeit school days and under 21) i can't say that there was a huge difference between them- however i beleive JW is the more physically committed whereas DC is possible the more cerebral player- although there's really not a lot in it.
Larkham????????? are you taking the piss? i cant even be bothered to go there.
it's just great that you can write off JW as a totally average player- do you watch many rugby matches?
No one will argue the JW try was a shocking decision but it's of no consequence anyway.
The amount of work Wilkinson puts in then yes he is a massive contribution but even his performance can't carry an entire team (just incase anyone else is in the land of the fairies and thinks he won it single handed). Ellis was immense which gave Wilkinson enough quality ball (fnar fnar) and the opportunity to shine. We are a long way off competing for the world cup but we have stopped hurtling downhill and made some serious progress back to being at least a competitive side. It's a position which we can build on, but there is a lot to do if we want to beat Ireland and France (that's an understatement). Yes Ireland were pants on Sunday but they will play better. Wales we have a shot at. They played the better rugby against Ireland in the first half, but couldn't make an entire match of it.
Abbot Ale did stirling work in ensuring that after the game I could barely walk out of the pub.
The amount of work Wilkinson puts in then yes he is a massive contribution but even his performance can't carry an entire team (just incase anyone else is in the land of the fairies and thinks he won it single handed). Ellis was immense which gave Wilkinson enough quality ball (fnar fnar) and the opportunity to shine. We are a long way off competing for the world cup but we have stopped hurtling downhill and made some serious progress back to being at least a competitive side. It's a position which we can build on, but there is a lot to do if we want to beat Ireland and France (that's an understatement). Yes Ireland were pants on Sunday but they will play better. Wales we have a shot at. They played the better rugby against Ireland in the first half, but couldn't make an entire match of it.
Abbot Ale did stirling work in ensuring that after the game I could barely walk out of the pub.
pugwash4x4 said:
360stimo said:
Oh for gods sake. Carter was developing when Wilko was the best 10 in the world. Carter is very young. Your first two lines of your thread are ridiculous.
Carter is the best and form 10 in the past 3 years and one of the best 10's ever. Wilko is still some way off the form to get him up along side Carter and Larkham
Carter is the best and form 10 in the past 3 years and one of the best 10's ever. Wilko is still some way off the form to get him up along side Carter and Larkham
'cos of course JW is really really old isn't he at 26! he's not reached his peak either.
You can't honestly be telling me that JW at peak is outclassed by Can carter at peak? There is a reason that BOTH of them were IRB player of the year- JW in 2003 and DC in 2005
what areas does Carter beat JW? having played against both (albeit school days and under 21) i can't say that there was a huge difference between them- however i beleive JW is the more physically committed whereas DC is possible the more cerebral player- although there's really not a lot in it.
Larkham????????? are you taking the piss? i cant even be bothered to go there.
it's just great that you can write off JW as a totally average player- do you watch many rugby matches?
please point out where i write Wilkinson off as an average player? Instead open your eyes and actually read my post, where i stated that on top form Carter and Wilko are even stevens but they are very different 10's and suit the styles that their countries play. If you think Wilkinson and Carter play the same style of game, your off your head.
Yes, Larkham is a seriously classy fly half.
Dan Carter is a far better strike runner than Wilkinson, his passing is much better and he is more skillful. Their kicking games are pretty even, both superb.
Wilkinson is an incredable defender and tackler and gets through more 'hard' work than Carter. He is stronger and more of a 'do the basics to a high level 10'
Carter is still the best 10 in the world and the form 10. Why? because he has been doing it consistantly for several years. Wilkinson has played one game for England in 3 years. I can see why the Welsh, Scottish etc get so pissed off wit this Wilkinson bandwagon stuff. Let the guy come through 4 more 6 Nations games, play consistantly well in those games agasint far better opposition (Scotland didnt target Wilkinson at all) and then you can rightly jump on your bandwagon.
As i said, i truly hope we get to see Carter vs Wilko soon
Yes i did play a lot of rugby and yes i do watch a lot of rugby.
rcarr said:
If it wasn't for Wilkinson, England wouldn't have won the World Cup!
If Wilkinson won England the world cup, (which is the most stupid thing i have ever heard), was he also the only reason England dominated World Rugby in the period before the world cup. Beating NZ, Aus home and away consistantly.
Nothing to do with Hill, Back, Johnson, Woodman, Greenwood etc - they didnt play much of a part did they.
Your a joker
Edited by 360stimo on Monday 5th February 12:40
360stimo said:
please point out where i write Wilkinson off as an average player? Instead open your eyes and actually read my post, where i stated that on top form Carter and Wilko are even stevens but they are very different 10's and suit the styles that their countries play. If you think Wilkinson and Carter play the same style of game, your off your head.
Yes, Larkham is a seriously classy fly half.
Dan Carter is a far better strike runner than Wilkinson, his passing is much better and he is more skillful. Their kicking games are pretty even, both superb.
Wilkinson is an incredable defender and tackler and gets through more 'hard' work than Carter. He is stronger and more of a 'do the basics to a high level 10'
Carter is still the best 10 in the world and the form 10. Why? because he has been doing it consistantly for several years. Wilkinson has played one game for England in 3 years. I can see why the Welsh, Scottish etc get so pissed off wit this Wilkinson bandwagon stuff. Let the guy come through 4 more 6 Nations games, play consistantly well in those games agasint far better opposition (Scotland didnt target Wilkinson at all) and then you can rightly jump on your bandwagon.
As i said, i truly hope we get to see Carter vs Wilko soon
Yes i did play a lot of rugby and yes i do watch a lot of rugby.
Agree with all of that and, yes, the hype that surrounds Jonny Wilkinson is bonkers and completely out of all proportion. In fact, I'm pretty certain that Jonny himself must be pretty embarrassed by it all because he's a unassuming down to earth guy. Obviously the worst culprits for this overhyping are non rugby fans or people who suddenly become rugby fans whenever England manage to string a few wins together. They're also the type of "fans" who are convinced that JW won the world cup single handedly, which so so utterly nonsensical I don't even know where to begin debunking it!
unrepentant said:
So was Ellis - epic performance.
Yep, my man of the match. Performing at the level he's really capable of playing. JW is a good player, but he plays a game that he's not built for - hats off for the heart, but it does explain his injuries half the time...
Yes, "Golden boots" notches up the wins, but it's not rugby IMO...
360stimo said:
rcarr said:
If it wasn't for Wilkinson, England wouldn't have won the World Cup!
If Wilkinson won England the world cup, (which is the most stupid thing i have ever heard), was he also the only reason England dominated World Rugby in the period before the world cup. Beating NZ, Aus home and away consistantly.
Nothing to do with Hill, Back, Johnson, Woodman, Greenwood etc - they didnt play much of a part did they.
Your a joker
Edited by 360stimo on Monday 5th February 12:40
If you would take a look at the stats of the 2003 RWC, New Zealand and Australia scored more points than England throughout the entire tournament.
www.rwc2003.irb.com/RugbyWorldCup/Templates/EN_StatisticsTeam.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2fEN%2fTournament%2fStatistics%2fTeams%2bby%2bPoints%2f&NRNODEGUID=%7b18D71A95-C751-4F8F-BC9F-9CE6E6323699%7d&NRCACHEHINT=Guest
England scored 239, 113 of those points were by Jonny Wilkinson. If JW was injured in their 1st group match, England wouldn't have won the Webb-Ellis Trophy.
The next highest scorer from was England Paul Grayson, who only scored 30.
Do you see what I mean?
rcarr said:
360stimo said:
rcarr said:
If it wasn't for Wilkinson, England wouldn't have won the World Cup!
If Wilkinson won England the world cup, (which is the most stupid thing i have ever heard), was he also the only reason England dominated World Rugby in the period before the world cup. Beating NZ, Aus home and away consistantly.
Nothing to do with Hill, Back, Johnson, Woodman, Greenwood etc - they didnt play much of a part did they.
Your a joker
Edited by 360stimo on Monday 5th February 12:40
If you would take a look at the stats of the 2003 RWC, New Zealand and Australia scored more points than England throughout the entire tournament.
www.rwc2003.irb.com/RugbyWorldCup/Templates/EN_StatisticsTeam.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2fEN%2fTournament%2fStatistics%2fTeams%2bby%2bPoints%2f&NRNODEGUID=%7b18D71A95-C751-4F8F-BC9F-9CE6E6323699%7d&NRCACHEHINT=Guest
England scored 239, 113 of those points were by Jonny Wilkinson. If JW was injured in their 1st group match, England wouldn't have won the Webb-Ellis Trophy.
The next highest scorer from was England Paul Grayson, who only scored 30.
Do you see what I mean?
No, not at all. You have a kicker like Wilkinson, surely the best tactic was to use him as much as possible. You know like game plans and tactics.
If Wilkinson had not been there, then England would have used the ball more. Its very easy to understand. The thing that made that team such a world class team, was their ability to play to the highest level in any match or weather condition.
The semi final vs France was a good example of this. France couldn't cope with the weather, England had much more structure and changed their game plan to keep it in the forwards and kick the goals. Perfect weather tactics. Dont forget it was Elton Flatleys kicking that kept Aus in the final, a scorline that flattered the Aussies
People seem to forget the amount of try's England scored in those 2/3 years.
Wilkinson was not the only reason we won the world cup, i honestly find that comment massively ignorant.
If New Zealand win the next world cup, which i think they will and Carter is the highest points scorer for the AB's by some way, which i think he will be, will the All Blacks be lablled a one man team? Will you say they only won it because of him?
Edited by 360stimo on Monday 5th February 17:34
We all have our own opinions, I am not ignorant in terms of how to play and the tactics of rugby. I just feelthat England were not the best team at the RWC in 2003. Yes I do realise that they had JW's boot as an advantage but as a forward, I feel that JW carried the team to higher than the rest of the team were capable.
I remember watching JW in his 1st Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield and worrying that this young guy could only get better!
As you might have guessed I am not an England supporter and I was cheering on the Aussies in the World Cup final. I don't see why JW should be branded a GENIUS, he is far from it. Is David Beckham a genius? They are both good with their feet, so why not?
Speaking from a personal point of view, I think when rugby turned pro it detracted from the specticle of the game, they are more like machines than people like JPR Williams, Gavin Hastings etc. I know a few pro rugby players and they are monsters! Jonny Wilkinson is a kicking monster, he kicks all the time, practices kicking everyday. They pointed out yesterday during the Welsh match that the speed of the pro game is so much quicker than club or representative rugby. One of my friends walked onto a pro side but he was destined for greatness from the age of 12. He was a monster at school and is even more so now.
Sorry, rant over!
I remember watching JW in his 1st Calcutta Cup match at Murrayfield and worrying that this young guy could only get better!
As you might have guessed I am not an England supporter and I was cheering on the Aussies in the World Cup final. I don't see why JW should be branded a GENIUS, he is far from it. Is David Beckham a genius? They are both good with their feet, so why not?
Speaking from a personal point of view, I think when rugby turned pro it detracted from the specticle of the game, they are more like machines than people like JPR Williams, Gavin Hastings etc. I know a few pro rugby players and they are monsters! Jonny Wilkinson is a kicking monster, he kicks all the time, practices kicking everyday. They pointed out yesterday during the Welsh match that the speed of the pro game is so much quicker than club or representative rugby. One of my friends walked onto a pro side but he was destined for greatness from the age of 12. He was a monster at school and is even more so now.
Sorry, rant over!
rcarr said:
We all have our own opinions, I am not ignorant in terms of how to play and the tactics of rugby. I just feelthat England were not the best team at the RWC in 2003. Yes I do realise that they had JW's boot as an advantage but as a forward, I feel that JW carried the team to higher than the rest of the team were capable. !
Who was better than England in the 2003 World Cup and whhy? England had World Class players all over the pitch. Players i rated as World Class from the Eng team that dominated rugby for 3 years and then won the world cup are,
Trevor Woodman
Phil Vickery
Martin Johnson
Richard Hill
Neil Back
Lawrence Dallaglio
Jonny Wilkinson
Will Greenwood
Jason Robinson
Josh Lewsey
their performances and the key thing, results prove they were the best.
Not suprised to find out your a Scot - i don't see why people can't get over country bias and give credit where its been earnt and is due.
I admit, Jonny Wilkinson is a very good player but there is no "I" in team, how many of those players you listed scored tries?
As for being Scottish, I have been brought up in Scotland but I am more English and Welsh than I am Scottish! Only 1 grandparent is 100% Scottish! I have always supported Scotland and Wales but never England, coz its not close to my heart. I was developing into a county/ Scottish schoolboy level player but I left school before I was selected.
As for being Scottish, I have been brought up in Scotland but I am more English and Welsh than I am Scottish! Only 1 grandparent is 100% Scottish! I have always supported Scotland and Wales but never England, coz its not close to my heart. I was developing into a county/ Scottish schoolboy level player but I left school before I was selected.
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