Goodwood Revival - 2023 Live Coverage
Discussion
kjs62 said:
As far as I'm aware V8 American cars didn't take part in British saloon car racing until 1963 when Ford Galaxies joined in so there's no historic connection when it's the 50s cars only - I feel they let it in so visiting Americans have something to cheer for
Not quite.....Dan Gurney was the first with his '61 Chevy Impala at Sillystone in May '61, and was comfortably ahead of the Mk.2 Jag's until a wheel broke. After the one race, there were then all sorts of politically (according to Dan) dodgyness over homolgation issues, and Gurney gave up on the idea of running the car again in the British Saloon Car Championship.But he had paved the way for the Galaxies a couple of years later.
The fact that there is no historic connection is only down to the fact that there were few UK or European racers at the time who probably even knew enough about US cars, to even consider it, plus the then importation restrictions on US items, meant that there even if they knew, it would be very hard to have run one.
It took one of the few US racers (and a hot rodder at heart) that had made the switch to UK/European racing to realise the new breed of performance US cars like the new 409 Impala SS would be very competitive against the Jag Mk.2's, which were still highly modified from stock at the time. Gurney's Impala he raced in '61 was stock with just the optional Police spec parts ticked off on the options list.
I don't think it should be there either. I know its more for the spectacle and that the Shepherd's are loyal and supportive to Goodwood events but it feels anomalous and it's guaranteed to win every time which is boring to watch. The races would have been even better had it not been there and it has ridiculous pace that is wholly disproportionate to the rest of the grid.
The 60's grid is a different matter and Falcons', Galaxies' et al should absolutely be there (and up the front).
Racing was generally great again this year, although it required rain to save the TT.
Also, missed what caused Chris Ward to pull up in the final 100yds?
The 60's grid is a different matter and Falcons', Galaxies' et al should absolutely be there (and up the front).
Racing was generally great again this year, although it required rain to save the TT.
Also, missed what caused Chris Ward to pull up in the final 100yds?
ettore said:
I don't think it should be there either. I know its more for the spectacle and that the Shepherd's are loyal and supportive to Goodwood events but it feels anomalous and it's guaranteed to win every time which is boring to watch. The races would have been even better had it not been there and it has ridiculous pace that is wholly disproportionate to the rest of the grid.
This is true and I absolutely agree, however this is overlooking the fact that Chris Ward in the Mk1 Jaguar outqualified the Ford Thunderbird over 1 lap by over 2.6 seconds... 
Not quite sure where Chris pulled that lap from or why he was unable to get near it in the race, but in all the years I have been attending and following the Goodwood Revival, never have I seen a 50s saloon turn in a lap time like that - very impressive.The fact that Ward was able to out perform the TBird shows it can be done, both in qualifying and the race.
Rob Huff in the Law Jaguar was also on the same pace in race one.
Fact is, however much fun it would be, no one is likely to win it in an A30, and Standard Vanguards, Westminsters, and Riley 1.5's seem much faster than I recall .... and plenty of years, it's been Jag, Jag, Jag in the pre 59
Rob Huff in the Law Jaguar was also on the same pace in race one.
Fact is, however much fun it would be, no one is likely to win it in an A30, and Standard Vanguards, Westminsters, and Riley 1.5's seem much faster than I recall .... and plenty of years, it's been Jag, Jag, Jag in the pre 59
T70RPM said:
The fact that Ward was able to out perform the TBird shows it can be done, both in qualifying and the race.
Rob Huff in the Law Jaguar was also on the same pace in race one.
Fact is, however much fun it would be, no one is likely to win it in an A30, and Standard Vanguards, Westminsters, and Riley 1.5's seem much faster than I recall .... and plenty of years, it's been Jag, Jag, Jag in the pre 59
And this is the thing.....prior to the big angry Bird, the pre-59 was dominated by Mk.1 Jag's anyway......so, the T-Bird means something other than a Mk.1 Jag mixing it at the top, which I like.Rob Huff in the Law Jaguar was also on the same pace in race one.
Fact is, however much fun it would be, no one is likely to win it in an A30, and Standard Vanguards, Westminsters, and Riley 1.5's seem much faster than I recall .... and plenty of years, it's been Jag, Jag, Jag in the pre 59
I think the fact that people moan because its a big yank tank means I'm glad it is there.....and I applaud Bill for spotting something that could be competitive against the Jags.
aeropilot said:
T70RPM said:
The fact that Ward was able to out perform the TBird shows it can be done, both in qualifying and the race.
Rob Huff in the Law Jaguar was also on the same pace in race one.
Fact is, however much fun it would be, no one is likely to win it in an A30, and Standard Vanguards, Westminsters, and Riley 1.5's seem much faster than I recall .... and plenty of years, it's been Jag, Jag, Jag in the pre 59
And this is the thing.....prior to the big angry Bird, the pre-59 was dominated by Mk.1 Jag's anyway......so, the T-Bird means something other than a Mk.1 Jag mixing it at the top, which I like.Rob Huff in the Law Jaguar was also on the same pace in race one.
Fact is, however much fun it would be, no one is likely to win it in an A30, and Standard Vanguards, Westminsters, and Riley 1.5's seem much faster than I recall .... and plenty of years, it's been Jag, Jag, Jag in the pre 59
I think the fact that people moan because its a big yank tank means I'm glad it is there.....and I applaud Bill for spotting something that could be competitive against the Jags.
sunbeam alpine said:
I do sometimes wonder why Rowan Atkinson chooses to take part in the automotive equivalent of the Albert Hall. He could certainly get something a lot more competitive and he's a very capable driver.
I love that car and applaud both Jaguar for manufacturing the entire thing out of a lighter material in period, and Rowan for using 'in anger' what (I imagine) must be 1 of only 1 or 2 cars ever made to such specification. I saw he competed with a Falcon Sprint in the 60s St Marys Trophy probably 10 years or so ago now (Alan Mann Racing-liveried car), but haven't seen him competing in anything other than the Jag MkVII for a few years now.
aeropilot said:
T70RPM said:
The fact that Ward was able to out perform the TBird shows it can be done, both in qualifying and the race.
Rob Huff in the Law Jaguar was also on the same pace in race one.
Fact is, however much fun it would be, no one is likely to win it in an A30, and Standard Vanguards, Westminsters, and Riley 1.5's seem much faster than I recall .... and plenty of years, it's been Jag, Jag, Jag in the pre 59
And this is the thing.....prior to the big angry Bird, the pre-59 was dominated by Mk.1 Jag's anyway......so, the T-Bird means something other than a Mk.1 Jag mixing it at the top, which I like.Rob Huff in the Law Jaguar was also on the same pace in race one.
Fact is, however much fun it would be, no one is likely to win it in an A30, and Standard Vanguards, Westminsters, and Riley 1.5's seem much faster than I recall .... and plenty of years, it's been Jag, Jag, Jag in the pre 59
I think the fact that people moan because its a big yank tank means I'm glad it is there.....and I applaud Bill for spotting something that could be competitive against the Jags.
The fact that you don't like it is an honest statement.
Regarding sandbagging, none of that is backed up by the facts.
The Ward car run a solid 2-3 seconds a lap faster @ 1:32 than any car in the race, and the law car matched a 1:34 that the T Bird ran
The argument for sandbagging simply doesn't hold water.
Far and away the fastest car was the Ward Jaguar.
In fact it was so fast it passed the T Bird twice in the second race, even waving it past at one point.
Not liking the result is however, it is a valid assessment and opinion.!
The Dominant car was Chris Ward in the Jag.
However it helps if the car is still running at the end.
If it was, the result would have been different.
Regarding sandbagging, none of that is backed up by the facts.
The Ward car run a solid 2-3 seconds a lap faster @ 1:32 than any car in the race, and the law car matched a 1:34 that the T Bird ran
The argument for sandbagging simply doesn't hold water.
Far and away the fastest car was the Ward Jaguar.
In fact it was so fast it passed the T Bird twice in the second race, even waving it past at one point.
Not liking the result is however, it is a valid assessment and opinion.!
The Dominant car was Chris Ward in the Jag.
However it helps if the car is still running at the end.
If it was, the result would have been different.
T70RPM said:
<clip>even waving it past at one point...
I didn't understand why he did that and because I was watching from Lavant Bank rather than on the TV there was no explanation. Did they say anything on the TV commentary? p.s. I having been going to the Revival for 24 years I have the impression that in the earlier years (say the first 10) the St Mary's Trophy was always a closer race, Minis dicing with Jags etc. or that just rose tinted glasses?
Edited by RichB on Monday 11th September 17:40
RichB said:
T70RPM said:
<clip>even waving it past at one point...
I didn't understand why he did that and because I was watching from Lavant Bank rather than on the TV there was no explanation. Did they say anything on the TV commentary? p.s. I having been going to the Revival for 24 years I have the impression that in the earlier years (say the first 10) the St Mary's Trophy was always a closer race, Minis dicing with Jags etc. or that just rose tinted glasses?
Edited by RichB on Monday 11th September 17:40
Pre 59
Pre 63*
- It used to be pre 66 but was domintated by Mustangs and Falcons, hence the drop back to 1963.
Pre 59 it's typically MK1 Jags and the T Bird. These cars often didn't run to homologated specs, so Goodwood has it's own rules which allow, for example, 1275 based engines in A40s and A35s. If they couldn't do that, they'd be running 803 and 948 engines.......
It's all about making a race; a tricky exercise
Goodwood often 'rest' certain cars, or swap driver combinations to mix it up a bit.
T70RPM said:
What's confusing is that it runs a different format every year
Pre 59
Pre 63*
Pre 59 it's typically MK1 Jags and the T Bird. These cars often didn't run to homologated specs, so Goodwood has it's own rules which allow, for example, 1275 based engines in A40s and A35s. If they couldn't do that, they'd be running 803 and 948 engines.......
And the T-Bird certainly wouldn't be competitive without the vast amount of non-period suspension mods that it has (and the same could be said for the six cylinder Austin's as well etc)Pre 59
Pre 63*
- It used to be pre 66 but was domintated by Mustangs and Falcons, hence the drop back to 1963.
Pre 59 it's typically MK1 Jags and the T Bird. These cars often didn't run to homologated specs, so Goodwood has it's own rules which allow, for example, 1275 based engines in A40s and A35s. If they couldn't do that, they'd be running 803 and 948 engines.......
T70RPM said:
What's confusing is that it runs a different format every year
Pre 59
Pre 63*
Pre 59 it's typically MK1 Jags and the T Bird. These cars often didn't run to homologated specs, so Goodwood has it's own rules which allow, for example, 1275 based engines in A40s and A35s. If they couldn't do that, they'd be running 803 and 948 engines.......
It's all about making a race; a tricky exercise
Goodwood often 'rest' certain cars, or swap driver combinations to mix it up a bit.
Which, in the context of the Goodwood show, is the right way to do it. My argument would be that the T-bird needs a rest or perhaps to be de-drivered for a bit!Pre 59
Pre 63*
- It used to be pre 66 but was domintated by Mustangs and Falcons, hence the drop back to 1963.
Pre 59 it's typically MK1 Jags and the T Bird. These cars often didn't run to homologated specs, so Goodwood has it's own rules which allow, for example, 1275 based engines in A40s and A35s. If they couldn't do that, they'd be running 803 and 948 engines.......
It's all about making a race; a tricky exercise
Goodwood often 'rest' certain cars, or swap driver combinations to mix it up a bit.
The Ward Jaguar does seem to be mega quick - probably has an ally-blocked, wide-angled head 'special' in it! Mind you, I've been chauffeured around Goodwood by Chris in a Daytona Coupe and, other than being a nice bloke, he's a) mega-quick and b) certainly knows his way 'round....
T70RPM said:
What's confusing is that it runs a different format every year
Pre 59
Pre 63*
Pre 59 it's typically MK1 Jags and the T Bird. These cars often didn't run to homologated specs, so Goodwood has it's own rules which allow, for example, 1275 based engines in A40s and A35s. If they couldn't do that, they'd be running 803 and 948 engines.......
It's all about making a race; a tricky exercise
Goodwood often 'rest' certain cars, or swap driver combinations to mix it up a bit.
Hmmmm not so sure - the Members Meeting caters for pre-63 saloon cars, but as far as i'm aware the St Marys Trophy is still pre-'60 or pre-'66.Pre 59
Pre 63*
- It used to be pre 66 but was domintated by Mustangs and Falcons, hence the drop back to 1963.
Pre 59 it's typically MK1 Jags and the T Bird. These cars often didn't run to homologated specs, so Goodwood has it's own rules which allow, for example, 1275 based engines in A40s and A35s. If they couldn't do that, they'd be running 803 and 948 engines.......
It's all about making a race; a tricky exercise
Goodwood often 'rest' certain cars, or swap driver combinations to mix it up a bit.
BMW 1800 Ti/SAs and Alfa Romeo GTAs weren't out pre-'63, and yet will still be in the St Marys Trophy next year along with the Galaxie. The Mustangs/Falcons/Barracudas seem to be on a hiding to nothing since 2005 (I think it was) when several of the Top-10 cars in the race disappeared from the scrutineering bay - allegedly due to running engines over the permitted capacity limits. Ever since there seems to have been a gradual shift towards the lower-powered cars (Minis, LoCorts, Alfas etc).
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