Getting Faster...
Discussion
tjdixon911 said:
While on the Turbo Trainer - should I be monitoring cadence, speed, distance, Heart Rate?
Currently all I have is a Garmin Edge 200 which will only measure time inside and none of the above, what do I need?
You don't NEED any of them, but heart rate and cadence is useful.Currently all I have is a Garmin Edge 200 which will only measure time inside and none of the above, what do I need?
The videos I linked earlier in the thread use 'perceived' effort rather than heart rate zones or anything, so you can just get on and ride.
If you want to go more serious about it, TrainerRoad or similar will do clever things with the cadence etc to tell you how much power you're generating and so on.
But you can definitely get a good workout by doing almost any of the GCN training (or SufferFest...) videos without a HRM or cadence sensor.
okgo said:
MTB is not harder than road. Road is not harder than MTB, either is as hard or as easy as you want to make it. To suggest otherwise is a bit dim IMO. Time spent doing said styles is going to mean you go further on the road, but distance is only something new cyclists tend to care about, most people train by hours vs distance.
Hang on, course it's harder! My road bike weighs about 8.5kg and has 25 mm tyres with almost no tread. My MTB weighs over 12 kg (probably more with all the mud on it at the moment...) the tyres are 53 mm wide and have knobbles on. When I ride it on the road it takes more effort; I can choose to push myself harder on the road bike if I want.I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
Daveyraveygravey said:
Hang on, course it's harder! My road bike weighs about 8.5kg and has 25 mm tyres with almost no tread. My MTB weighs over 12 kg (probably more with all the mud on it at the moment...) the tyres are 53 mm wide and have knobbles on. When I ride it on the road it takes more effort; I can choose to push myself harder on the road bike if I want.
I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
A better way to put it: the minimum level of effort require off road is higher than on road?I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
gradeA said:
To do 25mph 36x11 on a cyclocross bike will be just under 100rpm - hardly "spinning like crazy"!
OP, work on higher cadence ability as that'll help you go faster on the flat. I get choppy at about 120rpm and above, but 100rpm on a 32x11 (my longest gear, on 26" wheels) equates to 23mph which is plenty on the flat off road!
36x12 ok, so just not exactly a comfortable or sensible leg speed unless you like that kind of thing :/OP, work on higher cadence ability as that'll help you go faster on the flat. I get choppy at about 120rpm and above, but 100rpm on a 32x11 (my longest gear, on 26" wheels) equates to 23mph which is plenty on the flat off road!
Daveyraveygravey said:
Hang on, course it's harder! My road bike weighs about 8.5kg and has 25 mm tyres with almost no tread. My MTB weighs over 12 kg (probably more with all the mud on it at the moment...) the tyres are 53 mm wide and have knobbles on. When I ride it on the road it takes more effort; I can choose to push myself harder on the road bike if I want.
I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
300w effort for example is 300w effort whether you're going 25mph on a road bike or 8mph on a mtb through mud. There are more lateral demands and such on the body in more technical mtb, but beyond that, the actual effort required to move a bike doesn't change, its just pedaling...I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
okgo said:
.... the actual effort required to move a bike doesn't change, its just pedaling...
The point I am trying to make is they are not the same bike though. I never ride the road bike on the off road trails round here, but I do sometimes ride the mountain bike on the same roads as the road bike. On the mountain bike it always takes longer and takes more out of me.And when my mates go out on their cx bikes we generally ride less off road than if we are all on mountain bikes, but I really have to push myself to just keep up.
okgo said:
Daveyraveygravey said:
Hang on, course it's harder! My road bike weighs about 8.5kg and has 25 mm tyres with almost no tread. My MTB weighs over 12 kg (probably more with all the mud on it at the moment...) the tyres are 53 mm wide and have knobbles on. When I ride it on the road it takes more effort; I can choose to push myself harder on the road bike if I want.
I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
300w effort for example is 300w effort whether you're going 25mph on a road bike or 8mph on a mtb through mud. There are more lateral demands and such on the body in more technical mtb, but beyond that, the actual effort required to move a bike doesn't change, its just pedaling...I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
WinstonWolf said:
It's harder.
It isn't. Its different. That would be like me saying its easier to ride a time trial bike because for x effort I go faster than a road bike, and a roadbike will go faster than a mountain bike off road will for the same effort, so by that rationale the easiest thing in the world must be riding an event on the track where there is no wind, no obstacles, and you go even faster for the same effort - so why is it that everyone that does the hour record says its the hardest thing they've ever done and they've all generally ridden the hardest road events out there...
The engine is working at its maximum capacity, it doesn't matter whether the result of that is 5mph on a 40kg bike up a muddy hill or its 30 mph along a flat road on a time trial bike. One is not harder than the other, they both require the maximum you have to give.
I know this as I have ridden as hard as I can ride on all sorts of bikes, I don't think any are easier or harder as disciplines than another because that would be being a bit dim.
Daveyraveygravey said:
Hang on, course it's harder! My road bike weighs about 8.5kg and has 25 mm tyres with almost no tread. My MTB weighs over 12 kg (probably more with all the mud on it at the moment...) the tyres are 53 mm wide and have knobbles on. When I ride it on the road it takes more effort; I can choose to push myself harder on the road bike if I want.
I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
Harder at what, doing the same thing? If so, thats an unfair comparison so you could equally argue that using a road bike in a forest is 'harder'. I reckon CX is about 1.2 X harder than road...
The comparisons should be: Road bike on road. MTB off road. In which case, they're both as hard as you make them ... neither is harder or easier than the other.
You can push yourself on either in the environment they were designed for ...
okgo said:
WinstonWolf said:
It's harder.
It isn't. Its different. That would be like me saying its easier to ride a time trial bike because for x effort I go faster than a road bike, and a roadbike will go faster than a mountain bike off road will for the same effort, so by that rationale the easiest thing in the world must be riding an event on the track where there is no wind, no obstacles, and you go even faster for the same effort - so why is it that everyone that does the hour record says its the hardest thing they've ever done and they've all generally ridden the hardest road events out there...
The engine is working at its maximum capacity, it doesn't matter whether the result of that is 5mph on a 40kg bike up a muddy hill or its 30 mph along a flat road on a time trial bike. One is not harder than the other, they both require the maximum you have to give.
I know this as I have ridden as hard as I can ride on all sorts of bikes, I don't think any are easier or harder as disciplines than another because that would be being a bit dim.
It's a physics thing...
WinstonWolf said:
It is harder. There is more friction and weight therefore you need the engine to work *harder* to achieve a given result.
It's a physics thing...
Someone said it was twice as hard as road cycling, obviously as I said, unless you're very slow, you'll realize this is not true and its as a few have said, you can ride hard on any bike, the outcome and speed you'll travel will obviously be different but it doesn't make it harder, its just different application of the rider..It's a physics thing...
Stick a truck engine in a Fiesta, it will fly along far quicker than the truck, the engine is working just as hard, the output in terms of speed is different.
okgo said:
WinstonWolf said:
It is harder. There is more friction and weight therefore you need the engine to work *harder* to achieve a given result.
It's a physics thing...
Someone said it was twice as hard as road cycling, obviously as I said, unless you're very slow, you'll realize this is not true and its as a few have said, you can ride hard on any bike, the outcome and speed you'll travel will obviously be different but it doesn't make it harder, its just different application of the rider..It's a physics thing...
Stick a truck engine in a Fiesta, it will fly along far quicker than the truck, the engine is working just as hard, the output in terms of speed is different.
In terms of training as measured by TSS (Google 'Coggan TSS' for more info or check the Wattage thread) mtb will always lose as you just can't keep peddling the way you can on a road bike.
On my data for rides 1-1.5 hours max TSS per hour
road - 90 to 96
mtb - 81
However if I look at average heart rate I have managed 94% of max on both the TT bike and mtb.
I find on technical climbs that my heart rate is often higher than normal for equivalent power which makes sense as you have to work the bike more. That doesn't mean the mountain bike is harder it's just different and I think this is where those people without a power meter are mistaken. The mountain bike may force you to pedal harder and it may well feel harder as you have no choice but to put out a certain amount of power to get over the terrain. If you so chose you could do the exact same effort on the road bike but normally you aren't forced into that situation and you can pedal easier.
If you can do 300 Watts for an hour, changing bikes isn't going to push that up to 350 Watts or whatever, you are limited by your physiology.
On my data for rides 1-1.5 hours max TSS per hour
road - 90 to 96
mtb - 81
However if I look at average heart rate I have managed 94% of max on both the TT bike and mtb.
I find on technical climbs that my heart rate is often higher than normal for equivalent power which makes sense as you have to work the bike more. That doesn't mean the mountain bike is harder it's just different and I think this is where those people without a power meter are mistaken. The mountain bike may force you to pedal harder and it may well feel harder as you have no choice but to put out a certain amount of power to get over the terrain. If you so chose you could do the exact same effort on the road bike but normally you aren't forced into that situation and you can pedal easier.
If you can do 300 Watts for an hour, changing bikes isn't going to push that up to 350 Watts or whatever, you are limited by your physiology.
They are the same.
However I'd say road is 'harder' if you really want to split them, if you are pushing yourself - on a road bike you can do constant max effort until you break. On a mountain bike it's almost impossible to be constantly smashing the pedals, the technical nature of it will often require freewheeling. Look at DH racing, races have been won when people have broken their chain out of the gate.
Heart rates not a good indicator, sometimes when I look at my heart rate data the peak I haven't been pedling I've been on a fast technical off road downhill and the adrenaline has raised it not my effort.
I know if I want to get fitter and faster I get the road bike out.
However I'd say road is 'harder' if you really want to split them, if you are pushing yourself - on a road bike you can do constant max effort until you break. On a mountain bike it's almost impossible to be constantly smashing the pedals, the technical nature of it will often require freewheeling. Look at DH racing, races have been won when people have broken their chain out of the gate.
Heart rates not a good indicator, sometimes when I look at my heart rate data the peak I haven't been pedling I've been on a fast technical off road downhill and the adrenaline has raised it not my effort.
I know if I want to get fitter and faster I get the road bike out.
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