British Cycling allow the use of disc brakes in road racing

[travel is dangerous]

ooo, how long until they get ABS?

[smn159]

BMWBen said:

Given that I can send myself over the bars with my rim brakes (on carbon wheels) I don't think that's actually the case.

You don't think that larger braking force can be applied with disks?

[BMWBen]

smn159 said:

BMWBen said:

Given that I can send myself over the bars with my rim brakes (on carbon wheels) I don't think that's actually the case.

You don't think that larger braking force can be applied with disks?

How's that going to help if the force you can apply with a rim brake can already send you over the bars or break front wheel traction? The braking force is not the limiting factor (on my bike - mileage for fatties may vary).

If it's very wet you have a point, but in other conditions it makes no difference.

[smn159]

I'm perfectly happy with my rim braked Canyon for dry weather use but find that the rim brakes are next to useless when clearing water on the first press, so my next winter bike is getting disks. Overall I find that stopping distances are shorter with disks, even in the dry,

YMMV.

[travel is dangerous]

I find the argument that the brakes could cause crashes a strange one. They don't do anything until you decide to pull the lever.

[b2hbm]

smn159 said:

BMWBen said:

Given that I can send myself over the bars with my rim brakes (on carbon wheels) I don't think that's actually the case.

You don't think that larger braking force can be applied with disks?

Yep, for sure you can get a higher force with hydraulics on discs, but I think that may be part of the problem. Applying more force isn't always a good thing, the limiting factor isn't the braking mechanism, it's the tyres.

I've got discs on the MTB and they're great both on and off road, muddy roads, no problem. But it's got suspension and 2" wide tyres not 23c's at 100 psi, so arguably it's got better wet weather grip. I'm not convinced I could stop any quicker on a muddy road with on a road bike with discs against caliper brakes, once the brake blocks/rims are cleared of water it's the grip that's the problem and not locking up the wheel.

I think the problem with discs in road races won't be at the top end riders, it's going to be the newbies riding in the rain. That's not a reason to ban discs though, I could see some real benefit if you're riding tubular tyres and descending mountains.

[E65Ross]

okgo said:

Money talks.

I will never have a road race bike with discs. Totally pointless. Should think I'll be ok in the better cat races but there will be all sorts of crashes at 3/4 cat level from choppers grabbing the brake with disastrous outcome.

Having descended some 20%+ gradients on some very tight/twisty roads in the wet in Wales and rim brakes were shocking. It's nice to be able to have a road bike with discs that you can use on days like those AND for racing. Not everyone can afford 2 bikes.

I can perhaps see why some people think they aren't beneficial, but I also can't see the hate towards them.

Supercars have very decent brakes despite normal road cars having less powerful ones.

[Kawasicki]

Herman Toothrot said:

Kawasicki said:

Here is a list from a website...

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?page_id=...

A good few of the disc disadvantages are complete Bull st though, pulling front wheel out of forks WTF, only if you don't bother doing the QR up then quite frankly you deserve to eat pavement.

The only possible negatives that I'd say only apply to tight racing are the increased weight engineered in to deal with the increased (stronger better) braking force they supply, that includes maybe higher spoke count due to less dishing etc (everyone wants a lighter bike to accelerate more easily) & ability to slow much more suddenly in a tight racing pack potentially causing a pile up. I don't believe for a moment they represent a cutting injury - has anyone seen the tiny size of road discs and position they occupy, virtually impossible to contact.

There is no question that hydraulic disc brakes stop bikes better in any conditions than rims people that claim otherwise are talking out of their arse.

You seem quite emotional about the rim versus disc brake discussion.

It helps to consider that the best braking solution depends on the usage and that every technical solution has advantages and disadvantages.

Disc brakes need a different spoke pattern because the torque generated by the brake loads the spokes, not because brake forces are higher with discs.
Rim brakes can use a radial spoke pattern...and with less dishing...both allowing higher wheel lateral stiffness. So rim brake bikes should allow better steering than disc brakes.

[travel is dangerous]

b2hbm said:

I'm not convinced I could stop any quicker on a muddy road with on a road bike with discs against caliper brakes, once the brake blocks/rims are cleared of water it's the grip that's the problem and not locking up the wheel.

but you just defeated your own argument - if you had a disc-braked bike you could be braking at the limit of grip from the moment you started braking, rather than having to wait for the rims/blocks to dry out and start working efficiently.

[okgo]

E65Ross said:

Having descended some 20%+ gradients on some very tight/twisty roads in the wet in Wales and rim brakes were shocking. It's nice to be able to have a road bike with discs that you can use on days like those AND for racing. Not everyone can afford 2 bikes.

I can perhaps see why some people think they aren't beneficial, but I also can't see the hate towards them.

Supercars have very decent brakes despite normal road cars having less powerful ones.

Let me know which BC races go down 20% hills when you get a minute...

Like the Cyclist dead in London thing and debating riding there to people who live in Exeter, it is useless debating this with people who do not race bikes.

[E65Ross]

travel is dangerous said:

b2hbm said:

I'm not convinced I could stop any quicker on a muddy road with on a road bike with discs against caliper brakes, once the brake blocks/rims are cleared of water it's the grip that's the problem and not locking up the wheel.

but you just defeated your own argument - if you had a disc-braked bike you could be braking at the limit of grip from the moment you started braking, rather than having to wait for the rims/blocks to dry out and start working efficiently.

Exactly.

[Kawasicki]

I don't seem to suffer from massively degraded wet weather braking with my rim brakes. I have SwissStop blue pads with Ultegra calipers and aluminium Fulcrum Racing 3 wheels.

I keep reading that people have serious braking issues in the rain with rim brakes...I wonder why I don't. I do have a fairly aggressive braking style, so maybe I push through the water film pretty quickly.

I do notice that my braking performance gets weaker over time as I ride in the wet - I need to apply more force at the brake lever to get the same deceleration. This is due to the rim and brake block contact area becoming contaminated with a paste than seems to be part aluminium, part rubber and part road dirt. When I wash this crap off and properly decontaminate the rubber surface my braking force returns fully.

[okgo]

Most people who moan about braking in the wet will be riding carbon rims. Not alu.

Anyway, I've never needed more braking in a race than I've got, and I've generally only ever raced on carbon wheels, with rim brakes.

[E65Ross]

okgo said:

Most people who moan about braking in the wet will be riding carbon rims. Not alu.

Anyway, I've never needed more braking in a race than I've got, and I've generally only ever raced on carbon wheels, with rim brakes.

What about when you aren't racing? Surely you've had some times where you wished you had better braking? I got hit by a car last year (admittedly not that quick, but enough to cause some nasty bruising!) and I'm convinved I'd have stopped in time to avoid the collision with disc brakes. It was wet and that first second or so (aluminium rims, swissstop pads) with very little braking power meant I would have stopped a couple of metres earlier with discs.

Also....descending some seriously steep twisty roads in North Wales with no road barriers and a very, very large drop on the outside of the bends in the wet was not fun at all with rim brakes.

OK, neither are experiences during racing....but the fact they are allowing them to be used in racing means I won't hesitate as to whether I would get discs or rim brakes for my next bike.

[Enricogto]

E65Ross said:

okgo said:

Most people who moan about braking in the wet will be riding carbon rims. Not alu.

Anyway, I've never needed more braking in a race than I've got, and I've generally only ever raced on carbon wheels, with rim brakes.

What about when you aren't racing? Surely you've had some times where you wished you had better braking? I got hit by a car last year (admittedly not that quick, but enough to cause some nasty bruising!) and I'm convinved I'd have stopped in time to avoid the collision with disc brakes. It was wet and that first second or so (aluminium rims, swissstop pads) with very little braking power meant I would have stopped a couple of metres earlier with discs.

Also....descending some seriously steep twisty roads in North Wales with no road barriers and a very, very large drop on the outside of the bends in the wet was not fun at all with rim brakes.

OK, neither are experiences during racing....but the fact they are allowing them to be used in racing means I won't hesitate as to whether I would get discs or rim brakes for my next bike.

So you hit the car or did the car hit you?
As okgo said, it's extremely difficult that you'll find yourself with no sufficient braking power when riding in the UK, even under the rain. The limits of adhesion are driven by the tire characteristics, and if you encounter fading when descending a hill in Wales you must be doing something wrong, considering that thousands of cyclists manage to descend stuff like the Stelvio without dying every year.
Are you sure that by having later braking or improved fading resistance you won't end up just headbutting yourself or sliding once you start leaning for the bend?

[E65Ross]

Enricogto said:

E65Ross said:

okgo said:

Most people who moan about braking in the wet will be riding carbon rims. Not alu.

Anyway, I've never needed more braking in a race than I've got, and I've generally only ever raced on carbon wheels, with rim brakes.

What about when you aren't racing? Surely you've had some times where you wished you had better braking? I got hit by a car last year (admittedly not that quick, but enough to cause some nasty bruising!) and I'm convinved I'd have stopped in time to avoid the collision with disc brakes. It was wet and that first second or so (aluminium rims, swissstop pads) with very little braking power meant I would have stopped a couple of metres earlier with discs.

Also....descending some seriously steep twisty roads in North Wales with no road barriers and a very, very large drop on the outside of the bends in the wet was not fun at all with rim brakes.

OK, neither are experiences during racing....but the fact they are allowing them to be used in racing means I won't hesitate as to whether I would get discs or rim brakes for my next bike.

So you hit the car or did the car hit you?
As okgo said, it's extremely difficult that you'll find yourself with no sufficient braking power when riding in the UK, even under the rain. The limits of adhesion are driven by the tire characteristics, and if you encounter fading when descending a hill in Wales you must be doing something wrong, considering that thousands of cyclists manage to descend stuff like the Stelvio without dying every year.
Are you sure that by having later braking or improved fading resistance you won't end up just headbutting yourself or sliding once you start leaning for the bend?

I hit the car.... I was riding along, car pulled out in front of me as it didn't see me, I hit their drivers side door. I'd have stopped in time with discs.

I wasn't experiencing brake fade, just very poor braking ability and I couldn't lock the wheels up. There was a lot of grit/grime on the rims so braking performance was st.

It's very rare to have to do an emergency stop. But it'd be nice to know that when I do need to, I've got better stopping ability under me. I don't see the hate towards them?

They are better at slowing you down in an emergency situation. They cause less rim wear. I can't see a meaningful disadvantage to them?

[Enricogto]

E65Ross said:

I hit the car.... I was riding along, car pulled out in front of me as it didn't see me, I hit their drivers side door. I'd have stopped in time with discs.

I wasn't experiencing brake fade, just very poor braking ability and I couldn't lock the wheels up. There was a lot of grit/grime on the rims so braking performance was st.

It's very rare to have to do an emergency stop. But it'd be nice to know that when I do need to, I've got better stopping ability under me. I don't see the hate towards them?

They are better at slowing you down in an emergency situation. They cause less rim wear. I can't see a meaningful disadvantage to them?

Locking the wheels would give you a significantly worse stopping performance, plus increase the risk of the bike sweeping away under you.

It's not a matter of hate, not for me at last, but I just don't see the need for them. It would be a bit like having carboceramic brakes on a station's car. You're not going to use it to win the late brakers competition into Druids, likewise on a road bike, in a race, you'll be too marginal if that's the only advantage you have to overtake the other competitors, or else, it won't make a difference. Likewise, the aim is to pre-empt the emergency situation (yes I know that by definition they are not predictable, but you know what I mean). As for less rim wear, again on carbon rims, which require anyway a routine cleaning procedure, I don't see the advantage, and on a commuter where you could have a point, rims are so much cheaper than the cost of replacing them is almost surely lower than upgrading frame and fork/installing discs, anyway.

I've raced for many years on MTB (xc), both with V-brakes and discs. There I see the benefit (especially with muddy conditions, in the dry they are comparable), on the road I don't think I've ever wanted/needed more stopping power.

[okgo]

I can see the appeal of discs on a winter bike which has larger tyres, and will have to contend with crap weather and st on the roads that will wear rims. But I've never really needed more braking than I've got to be honest, alu rims and good pads offer surprising stopping power and modulation.

And in a race, if you need to stop quickly then you'll be going down anyway most likely as riding in a tight peloton isn't really something anyone who hasn't done it (and I don't mean a sportive because that is NOTHING like it) could imagine in terms of reaction times etc.

The hate is that its stupid that they'll allow one bloke to have brakes that could stop a 40lb downhill bike in 6 feet on a road bike with 23mm tyres when the guy behind him may have half the braking power. People grabbing a handful of brake and stting themselves in races isn't uncommon, usually the only thing that saves folks is that everyone has similar stopping power give or take.

[E65Ross]

Enricogto said:

Locking the wheels would give you a significantly worse stopping performance, plus increase the risk of the bike sweeping away under you.

My point was not that I didn't lock the wheels up, but I wasn't able to generate enough braking power TO lock the wheels up, which suggests that the tyre had more ability than the brakes, if that makes sense?

Well, I can't imagine I'm the only one who has had experiences in UK cycling where discs would have provided me with a bit of extra safety and, in the case aforementioned, possibly saved me from hitting the car. That alone makes them worthwhile IMO.

[TheFungle]

okgo said:

Money talks.

I will never have a road race bike with discs. Totally pointless. Should think I'll be ok in the better cat races but there will be all sorts of crashes at 3/4 cat level from choppers grabbing the brake with disastrous outcome.

Have you ridden disc brakes?

st riders be st riders no matter what system they have.