Knee pain, bike set up!

[E65Ross]

50mm difference is absolutely massive. I am one of the unfortunate few who is crazy susceptible to little niggles on the bike when my fit isn't correct. Put it this way.....I was getting left knee pain, which was totally alleviated by moving my saddle forwards by 5mm.

I had my cleat position matched on my winter boots to my summer shoes but didn't feel comfortable on them. The reason....the stack height/sole thickness was about 3-4mm thicker on the winter shoes....and I noticed that difference. It's crazy, but irritating! I do a fair bit of cycling though, if I was doing 3-4 hours a week whether I'd be as fussy I'm not sure.....but up until a month ago I'd been doing up to 20 hours/week!

[JustinF]

sone said:

I'm going to take the plunge and get a bike fit done so thanks for advice but in the meantime I've been watching a view on line videos with regard saddle height. One particular method I looked at was the 109% method, that is a measurement taken from your groin utilising a book and a taper measure multiplying by 109% to give you the optimum saddle position when measured from the peddle at it's furthest reach. This all seems well and good but the same chap advises on one of his other videos that a saddle position can be approximated by sitting on your bike and just feathering the peddle with your heel again at it's longest reach.
My concern with these two methods and I've tried both give results that are 50mm apart! Doesn't seem to be very accurate is my conclusion or am I missing something.

https://youtu.be/sUNgZ_aRRL8

Edited by sone on Thursday 18th April 10:10

both vague and take no account of foot length, cleat position, pedal/cleat combination and stack. Vague is good enough for bimbling about but sorting out correct height is reliant on more than one measurement.

[bigdom]

I agree with Ross, 50mm is enormous range of variation. I tend to average 8-10hrs per week, just for fun riding/commuting. I'm 195cm tall wearing a size 50 shoe, and even I'm highly susceptible to 5 or 10mm adjustments.

[TheFungle]

TheFungle said:

E65Ross said:

SVS said:

I had a professional bike fit and it made a world of difference

I wish I’d done it sooner, because it would have saved me a lot of injury. Although I’d read about bike fitting, there’s no way I could have achieved the same fit on my own.

Some of the fitters, such as Retül, measure the position of your limbs as you cycle (using 3D motion capture) to help determine the right fit.

millen said:

there seem to be different schools of thought - would be interesting to send the same cyclist to 3 or 4 practicioners and see how consistent the recommendations are ...

Whilst I was happy with my bike fit, I too wondered the same thing. Has anyone compared different fits?

Yes, I had 2 bike fits from different fitters on my old bike. The first was a fit from someone who took measurements, discussed my needs etc and set me up....made a difference for sure and I thought "this is great - so much better", later on down the line I decided to get a Retul fit - much, much better still and I went back to them for my newer bike. I didn't "need" the retul fit, as I was comfortable enough on the old set up, but having the retul made me even better, and faster. This is why I don't agree with the "you can do it yourself" comment or "you only need one if you're racing"....I think anyone doing a reasonable amount of hours on the bike should get a good bike fit done. Yes, some may well have a very good set up already, but an awful lot of people do not.

What's to say if you went to another fitter you wouldn't see the same improvement yet again?

What were the differences between the first and second fit?

Thanks

Frustratingly after deriding a bike fit to both to my mate and whilst reading it on here I've developed a niggle

I've recently changed cleats, installing them to my shoe having drawn a trace of the old ones; however, they appear to have been updated slightly as they didn't quite follow the trace.

Riding the bike (5+ hrs per week) has left me with with a niggling pain in my right Vastus Medialis.

Dr Google suggests this can be an effect of incorrect foot position which makes sense.

My right foot feels like it is tilting to the right which may be as a result of incorrect cleat position or possibly worn shoes.

[millen]

I'm not for a minute suggesting this in preference to a 3rd party bike fit, but if you're inclined to experiment with minor tweaks (and remember, you should make just small changes of one parameter each time) then a turbo trainer is hugely helpful. After that, the equipment needed is very basic - a ruler, plumb line, spirit level, goniometer (protractor with moving arm - £10 on the web), inclinometer (should be on most modern phones). Plenty of phone apps to capture really slow motion - eg sideways-on view to observe your pedal action and knee and upper body angles or front-on to see if the knees flail around. Some are promoted as golf-swing analysis tools. I suspect measuring knee angles at top and bottom of the pedal stroke is a better guide to saddle height than the various formulae based on leg length.

We once had a talk and demo by a bike fitter at a local club evening. He did say that it's as much art as science. There's also I think different schools of thought on pedal action. Some say you should aim to keep the foot broadly horizontal throughout the pedal stroke while others favour a more mobile ankle.

[keith2.2]

Interesting to note here that the only responses saying a bike fit isn't worth it are from people who haven't had it done.

Cost justification? Possibly, but I'd like to think people would rise above that and warn other people off from making the same mistake if that were the case.

[TheFungle]

keith2.2 said:

Interesting to note here that the only responses saying a bike fit isn't worth it are from people who haven't had it done.

Cost justification? Possibly, but I'd like to think people would rise above that and warn other people off from making the same mistake if that were the case.

There are numerous threads across cycling forums from those who have had a bike fit who have subsequently had to move to a different fitter and had completely different results.

I'm at ease making small logical changes so 'self fitting' works for me; whereas a friend of mine makes dramatic changes on a whim and is surprised when he doesn't cure his perceived niggles.

[ALawson]

I had a fit a few years ago from an outfit that normally does a fit to produce a custom carbon frame (I wasn't in the market for a £3k frame). It was about £75-100 (I cannot remember), the guy put my bike on a Turbo and then started at my cleats and worked upwards.

There were a few subtle changes made and I have ridden to that fit for about 3 years, the cleats and saddle height and position provide the biggest increase in comfort.

You don't have to spend a fortune with sensors and cameras but I am sure the licensing and training (like a car main dealer) need to be paid for. Considering how much people spend on a set of wheels to save a few Watts and then are uncomfortable its a no brainer to me, especially if you are get an aerodynamic review as well (like the new boardman wind tunnel).

Again you can do it yourself wearing the same kit, wind speed, road and using a PM.

[anonymous-user]

Bike fit, or at least your own application of bike fit principles, can surely help

Here is an interesting piece with Andy Pruitt

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/1034/andy-pruitt-qa

Also worth remembering that a bike fit doesn't last forever, no matter who you are

Froome would have had access to pretty much any bike fit he ever wanted for at least a decade. Yet he is always making adjustments

https://www.velonews.com/2018/07/bikes-and-tech/wh...

Merckx was the same - just watch the first 20 minutes of A Sunday in Hell to see how much he was fiddling with things

[anonymous-user]

JPJPJP said:

Bike fit, or at least your own application of bike fit principles, can surely help

Here is an interesting piece with Andy Pruitt

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/1034/andy-pruitt-qa

Also worth remembering that a bike fit doesn't last forever, no matter who you are

Froome would have had access to pretty much any bike fit he ever wanted for at least a decade. Yet he is always making adjustments

https://www.velonews.com/2018/07/bikes-and-tech/wh...

Merckx was the same - just watch the first 20 minutes of A Sunday in Hell to see how much he was fiddling with things

I've read a couple of books on Merckx. He even rode with different length crank arms at one point.

[keith2.2]

TheFungle said:

keith2.2 said:

Interesting to note here that the only responses saying a bike fit isn't worth it are from people who haven't had it done.

Cost justification? Possibly, but I'd like to think people would rise above that and warn other people off from making the same mistake if that were the case.

There are numerous threads across cycling forums from those who have had a bike fit who have subsequently had to move to a different fitter and had completely different results.

I'm at ease making small logical changes so 'self fitting' works for me; whereas a friend of mine makes dramatic changes on a whim and is surprised when he doesn't cure his perceived niggles.

Sort of proving the point - they went and paid for another fit.

[MR2 Steve]

I had pain in one of my knees when i was doing quite a few miles. I had a bike fit with Adrian Timmis at https://www.cadencesport.co.uk/ and it fixed the problem. The price alone is worth it for the moulded insoles. They're amazing.

[Porcelain Ponderer]

keith2.2 said:

Couldn't disagre more - Getting 'comfortable' is easy but having something not quite right can cause discomfort down the road. There are so many variables to the way a bike is fitted and because everything is interlinked, it isn't necessarily obvious what he cause is.

I recently had a bike fit on my TT bike and wish I'd done it years ago - the little niggles (tight ITB, occasional inner knee, occasional outer knee) all gone and the bike has never been more comfortable.

To give an example of the above 'interlinked' comment - I was getting ignorable knee discomfort after a couple of hrs on my left knee, but full on pain after 10-11hrs on the outside of the knee. It turned out I was pushing my hip out left to get proper extension on my right leg - that was causing lower back stiffness and twisting the left knee slightly.

"I've tried adjusting the left cleat in various ways and I can't seem to sort it"

The answer was to put 3mm shims into the right cleat, which brought my hips back to centre. I would never have arrived at that conclusion.

Price justification? Not here isn't not - I've booked the other bike in for next month and can't wait to get it done.

Can I ask who did your bike fit please?

[sone]

Haven't got around to getting bike fit just yet but ironically I dropped my seat by about an inch to try and gain some comfort. Amazing thing is no more knee pain and I doubt very much if it is a coincidence as off the bike I'm still getting a few twinges as previous
Goes to show that just minor changes can have a major influence, I think I need to get the set up done properly who knows what other differences it could make.

[ChrisMCoupe]

sone said:

I dropped my seat by about an inch

Goes to show that just minor changes can have a major influence

Is this a serious post? An inch is a MASSIVE difference, I can tell the difference of a 2 or 3mm seatpost change.

Worrying.

[WinstonWolf]

ChrisMCoupe said:

sone said:

I dropped my seat by about an inch

Goes to show that just minor changes can have a major influence

Is this a serious post? An inch is a MASSIVE difference, I can tell the difference of a 2 or 3mm seatpost change.

Worrying.

Meh, my legs are 2" different in length. You try setting that up correctly

[henrycrun]

custom made cranks ?

[WinstonWolf]

henrycrun said:

custom made cranks ?

I've got a 165 and a 175 for one side which I swap at will

Obviously I'm too high one side and too low the other but I can still ride albeit not as quickly as I'd like.

[Matt_N]

WinstonWolf said:

I've got a 165 and a 175 for one side which I swap at will

Obviously I'm too high one side and too low the other but I can still ride albeit not as quickly as I'd like.

Tried cleat shims?

If you’re running clip in pedals that is.

[WinstonWolf]

Matt_N said:

WinstonWolf said:

I've got a 165 and a 175 for one side which I swap at will

Obviously I'm too high one side and too low the other but I can still ride albeit not as quickly as I'd like.

Tried cleat shims?

If you’re running clip in pedals that is.

I've thought about it but that'd be a hell of a shim stack and might risk rolling my ankle. I've been like it for thirty odd years, I only mentioned it as I'm comfortable by my standards up to 100 miles in what is the *wrong* position however you measure it