MTB fitness and strength when climbing
Discussion
Mastodon2 said:
Rich135 said:
Road biking won't help you train much for hills, it's such a different style of riding.
Out of interest, could you elaborate on this? I'm not a MTBer but I'm interested to know why road biking isn't good for hill climbing training. 
Sounds like I need to get cracking then and focus on endurance. I may deliberately focus on actually climbing the hills around pitch and winter to improve myself.
Weight wise as mentioned im down from 100+ to 92kg. This should continue to reduce. Not noticed any difference in terms of ability from losing weight.
Road bike wise I rarely do a 7 miler now. Its usually 13 (under 40 mins) for a quick blast now or 21 (1hr 7) for a longer ride but im going to increase that further. Its been fitness and nerves playing in traffic that have held me back. Not such an issue now. Going to integrate Newlands corner into the road biking mix for some climbing. Strava has me at a 19mph average now up from 15-17 and my rides are getting quicker all the time.
Weight wise as mentioned im down from 100+ to 92kg. This should continue to reduce. Not noticed any difference in terms of ability from losing weight.
Road bike wise I rarely do a 7 miler now. Its usually 13 (under 40 mins) for a quick blast now or 21 (1hr 7) for a longer ride but im going to increase that further. Its been fitness and nerves playing in traffic that have held me back. Not such an issue now. Going to integrate Newlands corner into the road biking mix for some climbing. Strava has me at a 19mph average now up from 15-17 and my rides are getting quicker all the time.
Newlands Corner is a good climb, although the traffic can be annoying at times. If you are in that area than Barhatch Lane is a serious challenge, although you may need to walk the last bit the first time, the final stretch is around a corner and can catch you out if you expected the hill to finish! Also your gearing may not be low enough at all perhaps, worth a try though.
edit: Also I found road riding helped with MTB immensely - I actually did a huge amount of turbo training and road riding to get stronger on the MTB but then didn't actually go back onto the trails for a year or so, but when I did it was like night and day. One problem is that when road riding it's possible to ride for ages but keep the effort just below that required to get stronger ("junk miles" I think it's called). A heart rate monitor and some analysis tools (even Strava) can help there.
edit: Also I found road riding helped with MTB immensely - I actually did a huge amount of turbo training and road riding to get stronger on the MTB but then didn't actually go back onto the trails for a year or so, but when I did it was like night and day. One problem is that when road riding it's possible to ride for ages but keep the effort just below that required to get stronger ("junk miles" I think it's called). A heart rate monitor and some analysis tools (even Strava) can help there.
Edited by Gareth79 on Tuesday 8th September 15:12
As mentioned, I only ride road and I've found climbing hills on my road bike, whether outdoors or on Zwift, has helped me immensely. Since the end of July, I've come down from 102kgish to 94kg and that makes a world of difference in itself and not just on climbs.
Two things I was doing wrong on hills as a new road cyclist was firstly going at them too hard, too soon into the climb, trying to grind big watts instead of spinning an easier gear at a high cadence and secondly, letting my cadence drop to rest when I got tired - I found out that even resting for a second costs you hugely in the amount pf energy you need to put back in to regain the lost momentum. Fixing those errors and improving my aerobic fitness has made hills seem so much easier, but I know I've still got a lot more room to improve.
Two things I was doing wrong on hills as a new road cyclist was firstly going at them too hard, too soon into the climb, trying to grind big watts instead of spinning an easier gear at a high cadence and secondly, letting my cadence drop to rest when I got tired - I found out that even resting for a second costs you hugely in the amount pf energy you need to put back in to regain the lost momentum. Fixing those errors and improving my aerobic fitness has made hills seem so much easier, but I know I've still got a lot more room to improve.
Many decent road cyclists make decent mountain bikers, it's exactly the same action and muscle group and using the same lungs, albeit riding a MTB is likely more short sharp efforts owing to the steep little ramps you get offroad that you don't on. These can all be trained on a roadbike, or a mountain bike. To get out of breath less easily, you need to keep getting out of breath, your body will evolve.
Another miss-conception is that to get better at hills you must ride hills. You can do interval efforts on any terrain, of course it's easier to have gravity against you, but riding up a hill at a certain level of effort doesn't really differ from riding along the flat at the same level of effort. Obviously this is why people train indoors and get strong, most of the time they haven't got their bike angled upwards!
The only reason people think running is some magic get fit tool is because it forces you to work and for most people even running any distance is a LOT of effort. On a bike it takes practice to be able to measure and pace an effort and get it all out, because obviously its easy not to push hard on a thing that still goes forward when you stop pedalling. Running will not make you a better cyclist, you just need to be able to hurt yourself on the bike, its harder than it is if you're running.
Another miss-conception is that to get better at hills you must ride hills. You can do interval efforts on any terrain, of course it's easier to have gravity against you, but riding up a hill at a certain level of effort doesn't really differ from riding along the flat at the same level of effort. Obviously this is why people train indoors and get strong, most of the time they haven't got their bike angled upwards!
The only reason people think running is some magic get fit tool is because it forces you to work and for most people even running any distance is a LOT of effort. On a bike it takes practice to be able to measure and pace an effort and get it all out, because obviously its easy not to push hard on a thing that still goes forward when you stop pedalling. Running will not make you a better cyclist, you just need to be able to hurt yourself on the bike, its harder than it is if you're running.
okgo said:
Many decent road cyclists make decent mountain bikers, it's exactly the same action and muscle group and using the same lungs, albeit riding a MTB is likely more short sharp efforts owing to the steep little ramps you get offroad that you don't on.
MTB is much more upper body and core than road is.Evanivitch said:
MTB is much more upper body and core than road is.
Your legs are still the dominant factor in making a bike move. Him having washboard abs and solid arms isn't going to help him stick with his mates up a hill.Sagan, Pidcock, Van Der Poel, all piss all over the majority of MTB racers when they do bother to try their hand at it, they're all built like road cyclists (especially pidcock who is 55kg).
okgo said:
Many decent road cyclists make decent mountain bikers, it's exactly the same action and muscle group
I’m a mtb rider, no interest in roadies at all, although I respect them (in fact all cyclists) and have some good banter with a very good roadie that I know. We all use Strava, we like each other’s rides etc, but I always say one day we’ll get you off the drop-bars and onto a mans bike.In return he makes comments about mtb riders playing with themselves in the woods etc, it’s all good banter.
Anyway, last year he gets his very old mountain bike out of the shed, gets it serviced and goes out for a spin over the Purbeck routes we all use .
He was top 10 fastest ever on most of the climbs, even top 5 in some spots, not so quick coming down obviously.
But he really made me eat my words, some riders are just on a whole different level no matter what they ride.
okgo said:
Another miss-conception is that to get better at hills you must ride hills. You can do interval efforts on any terrain, of course it's easier to have gravity against you, but riding up a hill at a certain level of effort doesn't really differ from riding along the flat at the same level of effort. Obviously this is why people train indoors and get strong, most of the time they haven't got their bike angled upwards!
One advantage of hills is that you are going more slowly and don't need to choose a road sufficiently wide enough and with few junctions/roundabouts etc. Also for the less serious rider it's nice to just plan a route with a few decent hills and enjoy the ride for its own sake, knowing that there is some valuable work in it.It's the being able to dig deep and hurt yourself (repeatedly) that's key for me. You see loads of roadies that do loads of miles at an ok pace but always staying in their comfort zone, avoiding big efforts up hills and never improving. MTB seems to force you to go for it a bit more as relaxing the power up steep techy climbs will mean getting off and walking. The people I ride with that are the strongest climbers tend to be guys that do road and mtb.
I often do a 90 min offroad ride that's 3 laps of a 4.5 mile loop plus a couple of miles there and back, each lap has a singletrack descent through the woods followed by a 2 mile bridleway climb with about 600ft of ascent. I try to go as hard as I can up the climb (about 10 minutes long). Definitely makes a difference to my fitness and easy to fit in before or after work if I don't fancy a indoor session.
I often do a 90 min offroad ride that's 3 laps of a 4.5 mile loop plus a couple of miles there and back, each lap has a singletrack descent through the woods followed by a 2 mile bridleway climb with about 600ft of ascent. I try to go as hard as I can up the climb (about 10 minutes long). Definitely makes a difference to my fitness and easy to fit in before or after work if I don't fancy a indoor session.
Very late to the party, but I have found one of the best ways to improve your overall strength and condition for mtb is to do one of your weekly rides with the seat down :-)
Seriously. Drop the saddle and stand up for the entire ride if you can. Great for core stability, technique, and power. Throw a set of flat pedals on there and your skills will come on quickly too.
Seriously. Drop the saddle and stand up for the entire ride if you can. Great for core stability, technique, and power. Throw a set of flat pedals on there and your skills will come on quickly too.
Castrol for a knave said:
Just.
Zone 3.
Whether you're running, MTB or road bike, Zone 3.
No point hammering away at intervals, HIT sessions and wotnot. You need base endurance, everything else slots into place after that.
interested in your comment here. I ride mtb, and am out 4-5 times a week, approx 1500 miles per year of trails and climbs. My resting HR is ~50bpm and on the first half of my rides where most of the big climbs are my HR hits 185 and even 192. I'm 45. Zone 3.
Whether you're running, MTB or road bike, Zone 3.
No point hammering away at intervals, HIT sessions and wotnot. You need base endurance, everything else slots into place after that.
I was thinking periodically hitting that HR is good, and my average HR over a ride is 130 or so.
Am i doing this wrong or over thinking it? On some of the climbs i'm absolutely chuffing out of my ar*se but never pain etc.
bmwmike said:
interested in your comment here. I ride mtb, and am out 4-5 times a week, approx 1500 miles per year of trails and climbs. My resting HR is ~50bpm and on the first half of my rides where most of the big climbs are my HR hits 185 and even 192. I'm 45.
I was thinking periodically hitting that HR is good, and my average HR over a ride is 130 or so.
Am i doing this wrong or over thinking it? On some of the climbs i'm absolutely chuffing out of my ar*se but never pain etc.
The fitter you become, the lower your heart rate will be for the same given power. So basically for the same effort you're going quicker the fitter you become. I was thinking periodically hitting that HR is good, and my average HR over a ride is 130 or so.
Am i doing this wrong or over thinking it? On some of the climbs i'm absolutely chuffing out of my ar*se but never pain etc.
It all depends what you want from your ride ... to achieve your quickest time, you will need to sustain as much power (pain) as possible but without going so hard that your performance falls of a cliff.
Perhaps in your case, those early climbs need to be tackled with a little less enthusiasm to retain your strength as you ride.
There is obvs a lot more science to this than I have written. For those of us who spend more time on the road, the data in terms of HR, power and ftp is readily available so its easier for us to calculate if we're going too deep or going at it all limp-dicked.
Was thinking about this thread the other day
Definitely improved a lot since, the hills I could not get up when I was out with that group I now can, I don't blow out my arse anywhere as much although definitely don't have the power to match the speeds they were doing so the next thing I am trying to focus on is strength. My riding buddy is lagging well behind now although he is riding on Maxxis DHF.
My weight loss does seem quite rapid looking back, some weeks more so than I wanted. 2 weeks in Italy road biking saw me loose half a stone for example and I was aiming for 1 to 2 lbs a week.
On Sept 7th when i started this thread I was 14 stone 8 (earlier in the year was 16.8+)
Today am down to 13 stone (not bad considering I am 32, I was 12.6 when I was 22)
Suspect this will drop a little more, although I have increased calories and started weight lifting (standard compound 3x6-8 plus some supplemental exercises with small weight increases, will move to a more strength focused structure when i start to plateau in about 6 months like 5 3 1). Body fat calipers have me at ~12% body fat now although I suspect its a bit higher.
Road biking I think has helped enormously in terms of core stability and fitness plus a quite enjoy it and the mental health benefits. I've toned it down for winter a bit due to weather and darkness, but I'm typically doing a 22 mile loop with good sustained efforts and bursts of flat out where I have good visibility, looking forward to getting some longer and faster surrey hills rides in come spring.
Definitely improved a lot since, the hills I could not get up when I was out with that group I now can, I don't blow out my arse anywhere as much although definitely don't have the power to match the speeds they were doing so the next thing I am trying to focus on is strength. My riding buddy is lagging well behind now although he is riding on Maxxis DHF.
My weight loss does seem quite rapid looking back, some weeks more so than I wanted. 2 weeks in Italy road biking saw me loose half a stone for example and I was aiming for 1 to 2 lbs a week.
On Sept 7th when i started this thread I was 14 stone 8 (earlier in the year was 16.8+)
Today am down to 13 stone (not bad considering I am 32, I was 12.6 when I was 22)
Suspect this will drop a little more, although I have increased calories and started weight lifting (standard compound 3x6-8 plus some supplemental exercises with small weight increases, will move to a more strength focused structure when i start to plateau in about 6 months like 5 3 1). Body fat calipers have me at ~12% body fat now although I suspect its a bit higher.
Road biking I think has helped enormously in terms of core stability and fitness plus a quite enjoy it and the mental health benefits. I've toned it down for winter a bit due to weather and darkness, but I'm typically doing a 22 mile loop with good sustained efforts and bursts of flat out where I have good visibility, looking forward to getting some longer and faster surrey hills rides in come spring.
The thing you have to be careful of with MTB is the gearing, it's much lower than most road bikes. It's much easier to sit and spin in 1st on an MTB, plucking figures out of the air here but a 20% off road climb on an MTB, I am probably sitting down, spinning away at 80 - 90 rpm. A similar gradient on the road bike I'm much more likely to be out of the saddle, grinding along at 50 rpm maybe lower. I used to target metres climbing when off road, and it takes you to a certain point, but you have to mix up your training to see benefits after a certain stage.
DailyHack said:
convert MTB to 1X9 or 1X10,
Never! Anyway, all those arguments about 1x tell me they have the same range nowadays as a triple setup? And for my bike the conversion would cost a lot more than the value of the bike!DailyHack said:
Thats my plan anyway - makes you push harder on the steep climbs.
Is that push the bike when you can't get traction?!Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff