MTB Tubeless - what I am doing wrong!
Discussion
OK, I'm traditionally a roadie, so still getting to grips with tubeless, but I just don't get it.
It seems after a relatively short period of time, the tyres just don't hold air. I can top up the sealant, or had a bike shop top up the sealant, but the tyres don't stay up. You can hear the air escaping and it is escaping from holes in the tyre that are too small to see. I thought the sealant was supposed to deal with these? So I end up having to run tubes in them, which seems to defeat the whole point of them. Or I replace the tyres which in NZ is an extremely expensive exercise.
That's apart from the whole 'burping' issue, or not being able to get the tyres to seat in the first place.
Just seems more hassle than its worth, before I even begin to think about tubeless on my road or cross bike!
What am I missing?
It seems after a relatively short period of time, the tyres just don't hold air. I can top up the sealant, or had a bike shop top up the sealant, but the tyres don't stay up. You can hear the air escaping and it is escaping from holes in the tyre that are too small to see. I thought the sealant was supposed to deal with these? So I end up having to run tubes in them, which seems to defeat the whole point of them. Or I replace the tyres which in NZ is an extremely expensive exercise.
That's apart from the whole 'burping' issue, or not being able to get the tyres to seat in the first place.
Just seems more hassle than its worth, before I even begin to think about tubeless on my road or cross bike!
What am I missing?
Exige46 said:
Just seems more hassle than its worth
Congratulations on achieving this conclusion so quickly!Honestly, tubeless remind me of things like Apple products; a third of the time users will speak evangelically of their benefits, the rest of the time they're desperately trying to get them to just work.
ETA: this will offend some people who will be along soon to tell you that thanks to tubeless they can run their tyre pressures so low that I would smash my rims to pieces or burp them off the rims. Mmmm, lovely squirmy tyres...
Edited by Bacon Is Proof on Thursday 17th June 01:43
I used to dislike tubeless, unless on a mountain bike. Then I learned a few things, through trial and error. Firstly, the tyres have to be true ‘tubeless’ designed tyres ( they tend to have a butyl layer around the inner, and a much sturdier bead than a regular clincher.). Then I learned that all sealants are not created equal. Some have a much higher concentration of the critical sealant crystals in the solution than others, and that’s critical. Not all tubeless tape is created equal either, some work far better than others. There are many techniques out there for getting the tyres seated initially, some work better than others. If you want the tyres to hold air, you have to be patient about leak hunting, it can take a few hours / a day to get all the leak points located and sealed properly. Once you’ve got the hang of them, and how to set them up properly, they are actually quite handy, as you only need a gas inflator and a decent tubeless repair kit and you’re good to go, no need to carry a spare tube or levers. I’ve had a couple of side wall issues that did kill a ride, but they are rare enough events to not be significant.
Exige46 said:
OK, I'm traditionally a roadie, so still getting to grips with tubeless, but I just don't get it.
It seems after a relatively short period of time, the tyres just don't hold air. I can top up the sealant, or had a bike shop top up the sealant, but the tyres don't stay up. You can hear the air escaping and it is escaping from holes in the tyre that are too small to see. I thought the sealant was supposed to deal with these? So I end up having to run tubes in them, which seems to defeat the whole point of them. Or I replace the tyres which in NZ is an extremely expensive exercise.
That's apart from the whole 'burping' issue, or not being able to get the tyres to seat in the first place.
Just seems more hassle than its worth, before I even begin to think about tubeless on my road or cross bike!
What am I missing?
It sounds like they might not be seated properly, or maybe aren't tubeless compatible rims/tyres? Mine tend to slowly drop maybe 1-2 psi per week sitting around, but if you can hear air escaping then something is definitely wrong. It seems after a relatively short period of time, the tyres just don't hold air. I can top up the sealant, or had a bike shop top up the sealant, but the tyres don't stay up. You can hear the air escaping and it is escaping from holes in the tyre that are too small to see. I thought the sealant was supposed to deal with these? So I end up having to run tubes in them, which seems to defeat the whole point of them. Or I replace the tyres which in NZ is an extremely expensive exercise.
That's apart from the whole 'burping' issue, or not being able to get the tyres to seat in the first place.
Just seems more hassle than its worth, before I even begin to think about tubeless on my road or cross bike!
What am I missing?
If they are tubeless compatible tyres then the air is more likely to be escaping an unseated bead, around the valve or past some loose rim tape.
It can take a day or two before the sealant gets into all the gaps when you first fit a tubeless tyre, make sure you swish the sealant around well inside them. I find going for a ride is the best thing for that. I had one that went flat within the first day, pumped it up and went for a ride the second day and its been good ever since.
Not sure what you mean by the burping issue?
I had the losing air thing overnight frustration. Turned out I had forgotten to shake the bottle (Stans) before I put it in.
Rookie mistake. Worked ok after that.
Now switched to MucOff sealant, which is better (but Stans Race sealant is better than normal Stans and equivalent to MucOff) meant I haven't had to do anything in nearly a year other than a quick top up here and there.
If it's not a sealant issue, then could you tell us a bit more about your tyres and rims/tape etc?
Rookie mistake. Worked ok after that.
Now switched to MucOff sealant, which is better (but Stans Race sealant is better than normal Stans and equivalent to MucOff) meant I haven't had to do anything in nearly a year other than a quick top up here and there.
If it's not a sealant issue, then could you tell us a bit more about your tyres and rims/tape etc?
Bacon Is Proof said:
Exige46 said:
Just seems more hassle than its worth
Congratulations on achieving this conclusion so quickly!Honestly, tubeless remind me of things like Apple products; a third of the time users will speak evangelically of their benefits, the rest of the time they're desperately trying to get them to just work.
ETA: this will offend some people who will be along soon to tell you that thanks to tubeless they can run their tyre pressures so low that I would smash my rims to pieces or burp them off the rims. Mmmm, lovely squirmy tyres...
Edited by Bacon Is Proof on Thursday 17th June 01:43
Bacon Is Proof said:
ETA: this will offend some people....
Not used an inner tube for at least 10 years. Over a dozen bikes. Tens of thousands of miles. I have had less than 5 noticeable punctures in that time. Lord kmows how much times I would have spent patching and changing tubes out on a ride otherwise!
Generally I find problems with tubeless are bad prep or poor kit choice. Not shaking up the sealant is a classic one as mentioned!
Proper rim tape too, Tesa yellow in the right width for your rim (Not gaffer, or electrical, or bloody gorilla tape!) .
Maxxis, WTB, Michelin and Specialized tyres all work very well tubeless in my experience. Less impressed with Continental and Schwalbe.
Go back to basics, remove the tyyes, check the rim tape is A) decent stuff and B) installed properly. The rim tape join/overlap should be opposite the valve hole, for instance.
Check your tyres are intended to be run tubeless (lots of OEM and factory fit stuff are the cheaper non tublesless specific type).
Shake up your sealant! Over inflate to the max allowable by your rim (Not the tyre), with the wheel off, and give it a real good shake to propely coat the inside of the tyre. Once the intiial sealing is done, they should hold pressure for weeks.
(Oh and PS - 20Fr 23Rr PSI on the trail. Its called grip, you shuold give it a whirl
)My 2p,
If you want to run lower pressure in your tyres, but pinch flats are stopping you, then tubeless is the way to go. That is the only benefit, the ONLY benefit and it's a hill I'll die on.
That sound of distance thunder you can hear is a million tubeless fundamentalists charging in to tell you about that time they changed their tyre and found an entire forest of thorns in it, and they're never known because their tubeless system mean they never lost a single PSI. Bulls
t.
Personally, I do run tubeless, the bike came that way, in the 10+ years I was riding MTB with tubes.... I might have gotten 1, or maybe in a bad year 2 flats a year. That's not to say tubeless has been 100% reliable either.
The trade off is, harder to fit tyres, MUCH harder to seat tyres, fking glue everywhere, and yes, depending on mysterious unknown factors, my rear (which I run at 30psi) will sometimes lose 5psi in the shed in a few days, sometimes 10psi and sometimes none, but because it's mysterious I have to check it every time I use my bike, lest I spend the day dragging around a squirmy tyre.
If you want to run lower pressure in your tyres, but pinch flats are stopping you, then tubeless is the way to go. That is the only benefit, the ONLY benefit and it's a hill I'll die on.
That sound of distance thunder you can hear is a million tubeless fundamentalists charging in to tell you about that time they changed their tyre and found an entire forest of thorns in it, and they're never known because their tubeless system mean they never lost a single PSI. Bulls
t. Personally, I do run tubeless, the bike came that way, in the 10+ years I was riding MTB with tubes.... I might have gotten 1, or maybe in a bad year 2 flats a year. That's not to say tubeless has been 100% reliable either.
The trade off is, harder to fit tyres, MUCH harder to seat tyres, f
king glue everywhere, and yes, depending on mysterious unknown factors, my rear (which I run at 30psi) will sometimes lose 5psi in the shed in a few days, sometimes 10psi and sometimes none, but because it's mysterious I have to check it every time I use my bike, lest I spend the day dragging around a squirmy tyre. Yep. I'd got on OK with bodged Gorilla tape and non-TL-ready tyres that mostly sealed up fine, seated with a bit of effort and an Airshot. I did get little sealant bubbles on the (porous) sidewalls until it settled down but they held up fine.
When I got some new wheels and tyres (pre-taped and all tubeless ready) the things went up no bother with just a trackpump, super easy. They lose a couple of PSI at most over a few weeks if I'm not riding in between. Always check before riding anyway, couple of pumps to bring it up, done.
Only had one tyre fail to seat at all, on a mate's bike - old tyre and we couldn't make it work. New tyre was a tighter fit on the beads and no problem at all. And only had one cut big enough to break out the tubeless anchovy kit, countless smaller things that just hissed when I pulled them out, spin the wheel around and it sealed back up.
I set a reminder to top up sealant at 6 months (it does dry out eventually), just squirt a bit more in the valve with a syringe and hose, 5 mins job. Clear it out after a year or two and redo.
I'll take that maintenance schedule any day over trailside tube faffing. I'm also never going back to running high pressures just to avoid punctures - you get so much more grip running lower.
When I got some new wheels and tyres (pre-taped and all tubeless ready) the things went up no bother with just a trackpump, super easy. They lose a couple of PSI at most over a few weeks if I'm not riding in between. Always check before riding anyway, couple of pumps to bring it up, done.
Only had one tyre fail to seat at all, on a mate's bike - old tyre and we couldn't make it work. New tyre was a tighter fit on the beads and no problem at all. And only had one cut big enough to break out the tubeless anchovy kit, countless smaller things that just hissed when I pulled them out, spin the wheel around and it sealed back up.
I set a reminder to top up sealant at 6 months (it does dry out eventually), just squirt a bit more in the valve with a syringe and hose, 5 mins job. Clear it out after a year or two and redo.
I'll take that maintenance schedule any day over trailside tube faffing. I'm also never going back to running high pressures just to avoid punctures - you get so much more grip running lower.
You just need to do it right. You make any set up tubeless if you know what you're doing.
They will lose some pressure over the course of a few days so you need to check pressure before you ride... But most do that with a tube.
I used to run my fat bike tubeless without any problems and a fatbike rim has massive holes in it to save weight... And fatbike tyres are typically not design to be tubeless. As I say, you just need to do it right.
Things to check.
- Did you fit the rim tape properly? Big bubbles in the tape are leak paths. Clear 25mm gorilla tape is more effective than expensive rim tape IME.
- Did you use the right internal grommet on your valve - one that matches the rim.
- Did your properly tighten the lock ring on the valve - most leaks are from an unsealed valve on the internal side.
- did you shake the sealant.
- did you take the time to slush the sealant on the tyre sidewalls.
- did you leave the wheel level on its side (both sides) to aid sealing the side walls.
- did you ride it soon after to make sure the sealant has sloshed around inside.
Fitting tips.
- use a compressor.
- use washing up liquid on the bead.
- remove the valve core.
- if it still won't seat - very very rare. Put in a tube and use thd tube to seat one bead, then remove and repeat above steps.
One seated and sealed, simply crack open a small section of bead and top up with sealant every few months and reinflate. Or use the syringe, which is more of a faff IME.
IN 15 years of running tubeless I have had one tyre failure and zero punctures - and the tye was due to a very worn sidewall.
They will lose some pressure over the course of a few days so you need to check pressure before you ride... But most do that with a tube.
I used to run my fat bike tubeless without any problems and a fatbike rim has massive holes in it to save weight... And fatbike tyres are typically not design to be tubeless. As I say, you just need to do it right.
Things to check.
- Did you fit the rim tape properly? Big bubbles in the tape are leak paths. Clear 25mm gorilla tape is more effective than expensive rim tape IME.
- Did you use the right internal grommet on your valve - one that matches the rim.
- Did your properly tighten the lock ring on the valve - most leaks are from an unsealed valve on the internal side.
- did you shake the sealant.
- did you take the time to slush the sealant on the tyre sidewalls.
- did you leave the wheel level on its side (both sides) to aid sealing the side walls.
- did you ride it soon after to make sure the sealant has sloshed around inside.
Fitting tips.
- use a compressor.
- use washing up liquid on the bead.
- remove the valve core.
- if it still won't seat - very very rare. Put in a tube and use thd tube to seat one bead, then remove and repeat above steps.
One seated and sealed, simply crack open a small section of bead and top up with sealant every few months and reinflate. Or use the syringe, which is more of a faff IME.
IN 15 years of running tubeless I have had one tyre failure and zero punctures - and the tye was due to a very worn sidewall.
I've only ever used a floor pump for seating tubeless and it works fine, but it is a fairly high volume one (Topeak Joeblow Mountain).
One basic but important thing I found is MAKE SURE THE RIM AND BEAD ARE CLEAN. I even put it in capitals. It doesn't take much grit or old sealant residue etc between the tyre bead and rim to create an annoying little air gap for sealant and air to hiss out of when you try to inflate it.
I did have one tyre blow itself right off the rim when seating (spraying sealant everywhere, what a mess! ), and then blow itself off the rim again 5 minutes into its first ride (giving the guy passing me on an e-bike a hell of a fright as it was bloody loud). I've never had that happen with anything else, so I put it down to (a) it was a second-hand tyre I'd bought cheap just to see if I liked it, so may have been already damaged and (b) I put about 40psi in while seating it because someone had told me to put lots of pressure in to make them seat properly, but that may have been too much. Since then I've only gone to about 30psi in while seating and it's been fine.
One basic but important thing I found is MAKE SURE THE RIM AND BEAD ARE CLEAN. I even put it in capitals. It doesn't take much grit or old sealant residue etc between the tyre bead and rim to create an annoying little air gap for sealant and air to hiss out of when you try to inflate it.
I did have one tyre blow itself right off the rim when seating (spraying sealant everywhere, what a mess!
), and then blow itself off the rim again 5 minutes into its first ride (giving the guy passing me on an e-bike a hell of a fright as it was bloody loud). I've never had that happen with anything else, so I put it down to (a) it was a second-hand tyre I'd bought cheap just to see if I liked it, so may have been already damaged and (b) I put about 40psi in while seating it because someone had told me to put lots of pressure in to make them seat properly, but that may have been too much. Since then I've only gone to about 30psi in while seating and it's been fine.My own experience of tubeless was having it on my road bike for not very long - Tubeless rims and tyres + whatever sealant the shop put in - first proper puncture was just a mess of sealant and nearly a test of how far a 55mm carbon wheel will fly if you get pissed off enough to throw it in frustration. I no longer use tubeless on the road bike - it offers zero benefit over a latex tube + a spare and is just additional faffing about at all stages.
My other experiences have all been on the mountain bike. Mostly standing around, while someone is getting covered in sealant, playing about with those worm things and telling us all how easy and great tubeless is. Obviously with them needing to stop every so often to top up the slow puncture and making sure everyone knows how good tubeless is.
As above - if you get loads of snakebites and run ultra low pressure - go tubeless. Otherwise, solution looking for a problem IMO
My other experiences have all been on the mountain bike. Mostly standing around, while someone is getting covered in sealant, playing about with those worm things and telling us all how easy and great tubeless is. Obviously with them needing to stop every so often to top up the slow puncture and making sure everyone knows how good tubeless is.
As above - if you get loads of snakebites and run ultra low pressure - go tubeless. Otherwise, solution looking for a problem IMO
Parsnip said:
My own experience of tubeless was having it on my road bike for not very long - Tubeless rims and tyres + whatever sealant the shop put in - first proper puncture was just a mess of sealant and nearly a test of how far a 55mm carbon wheel will fly if you get pissed off enough to throw it in frustration. I no longer use tubeless on the road bike - it offers zero benefit over a latex tube + a spare and is just additional faffing about at all stages.
The proper tubeless road tyres are quite a bit sturdier than non-tubeless though, so punctures are much rarer. I have found that a puncture large enough to spray sealant doesn't always seal before huge amounts of pressure has been lost though, or it may seal ok, but then blow out again weeks later on a hot road. I've had to put a tube in only twice in 8,000km of road tubeless.Funny how everyone has different opinions
Heres mine fwiw
Tyres obviously need to be tubeless compatible.
Gorilla tape is brilliant at sealing the rim, but put it on carefully avoiding the bead area. You are largely just sealing the spoke holes etc.
Stans sealant works fine, but shake the bottles. Anecdotally I know of a retailer that won't stock tyre sealant because they had a batch leak. I still find that amusing.
You can run tubeless lower, but not so low that they burp off the rims!!
They can be a bh to pop onto the wheel and get seated.
Expect to top up every couple of weeks, but in return no punctures (IME) but in return for that and lower pressures unless your rim is perfectly smooth (!!!) you will get wear on the side wall and often it rubs through. I repeat: make sure your rim is perfectly smooth and clean.
Heres mine fwiw
Tyres obviously need to be tubeless compatible.
Gorilla tape is brilliant at sealing the rim, but put it on carefully avoiding the bead area. You are largely just sealing the spoke holes etc.
Stans sealant works fine, but shake the bottles. Anecdotally I know of a retailer that won't stock tyre sealant because they had a batch leak. I still find that amusing.
You can run tubeless lower, but not so low that they burp off the rims!!
They can be a b
h to pop onto the wheel and get seated.Expect to top up every couple of weeks, but in return no punctures (IME) but in return for that and lower pressures unless your rim is perfectly smooth (!!!) you will get wear on the side wall and often it rubs through. I repeat: make sure your rim is perfectly smooth and clean.
P-Jay said:
.... about that time they changed their tyre and found an entire forest of thorns in it, and they're never known because their tubeless system mean they never lost a single PSI. Bullst.
This is my experience. I've had more punctures (can't remember exactly how many but more than 3) in my less used fat bike with tubes in the last 18 months than I've had since I went tubeless on my MTB 4 years ago (1 iirc). And wiping out the old sealant when I replace it is hazardous because of the forest... t. 
It just works IME.
Thanks or the various thoughts and suggestions!
Originally installed by a shop, so I am hoping that they did everything correctly, definitely tubeless rims and tyres, Maxxis but can't remember specifically which tyre as we have various tyres on various bikes and I can't be bothered to head down to the garage.
With hindsight it could very easily be that I didn't shake the sealant, however I do tend to read instructions. It was one of the Stan's sealants, though I don't remember which.
The biggest frustration is being able to hear and see the air leaking out of a 2-3 month old tyre, which heaps of tread left, with the holes being too small to see. Again could be due to not shaking the sealant.
I'm going to persevere for a little while, the trails around here are quite rocky in places and pinch flats are a concern.
Cheers
Originally installed by a shop, so I am hoping that they did everything correctly, definitely tubeless rims and tyres, Maxxis but can't remember specifically which tyre as we have various tyres on various bikes and I can't be bothered to head down to the garage.
With hindsight it could very easily be that I didn't shake the sealant, however I do tend to read instructions. It was one of the Stan's sealants, though I don't remember which.
The biggest frustration is being able to hear and see the air leaking out of a 2-3 month old tyre, which heaps of tread left, with the holes being too small to see. Again could be due to not shaking the sealant.
I'm going to persevere for a little while, the trails around here are quite rocky in places and pinch flats are a concern.
Cheers
Bike shop fixed does not always = done right sadly.
Get some soapy water in a spray gun and find where it bubbles. Including the valve.
If it's leaking ftom the valve tighten the lock ring.
If it's the side wall, you know where to keep sloshing the sealant. Inflating to max psi helps too.
Get some soapy water in a spray gun and find where it bubbles. Including the valve.
If it's leaking ftom the valve tighten the lock ring.
If it's the side wall, you know where to keep sloshing the sealant. Inflating to max psi helps too.
Mtb here, stans sealant.
Never had an issue, 1 puncture in over 2.5 k riding and that’s due to the sealant not being topped up.
Put loads in and pump up, use co2, check valve isn’t loose.
Spin the wheel many times when reinstalling tyres so that it plugs any potential leaks.
Never had an issue, 1 puncture in over 2.5 k riding and that’s due to the sealant not being topped up.
Put loads in and pump up, use co2, check valve isn’t loose.
Spin the wheel many times when reinstalling tyres so that it plugs any potential leaks.
Edited by Simes205 on Friday 18th June 06:44
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