Discussion
Mentioned at length in here, by people more wise than me 
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
TL:DR not a surprise. They haven't moved with the times and only appeal to the nostalgia crowd. Kids don't want them as they don't see their hero's riding them
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
TL:DR not a surprise. They haven't moved with the times and only appeal to the nostalgia crowd. Kids don't want them as they don't see their hero's riding them
I'm sad to hear this news, as last year I bought a new Orange 5 after many years of wanting one.
I suppose I'm their typical purchaser, Northern, middle aged, remember lusting after their bikes BITD, not bothered that there are technically better bikes, use it for rides with my kids and remember the exploits of Steve Peat.
I know that they don't compete in the value for money stakes, as my bottom of the range 5 has many of the same components as bikes costing hundreds (if not thousands) of pounds less.
I was happy to pay the premium for the five year frame warranty, and fact that it was designed and made just down the road from me.
I hope that they can survive the issues they are currently facing.
I suppose I'm their typical purchaser, Northern, middle aged, remember lusting after their bikes BITD, not bothered that there are technically better bikes, use it for rides with my kids and remember the exploits of Steve Peat.
I know that they don't compete in the value for money stakes, as my bottom of the range 5 has many of the same components as bikes costing hundreds (if not thousands) of pounds less.
I was happy to pay the premium for the five year frame warranty, and fact that it was designed and made just down the road from me.
I hope that they can survive the issues they are currently facing.
I'm sorry to hear it, but I'm not surprised.
This week Insta has been full of MTBers, pro and amateur, bemoaning the loss and showing old pics on their Orange Bikes, but that was the problem, they were old, very old pictures.
When Ashley Ball bought Orange back in 2015, he spoke at length about Company Values and history, which I suppose is commendable, but it almost feels like a British Condition, we have a long history of young innovative businesses making cutting edge products, that to morph into old fashioned, unimaginative, uncreative and uninspiring traditionalists as soon as they establish themselves.
Folded and welded frames were a great idea in the early days of Alu frames, but hydroformed frames are better. Cheaper and faster to produce, whilst offering weight and strength savings. Since then the MTB world has evolved endlessly, and yes Orange did too, they always managed to make a folded and welded alu frame to every new standard, but it was still heavy, had terrible noise resonance (they not called flying filing cabinets for no reason) and cost a lot of money, because skilled workers in England cost a lot more than robots in Asia.
I'm not dissing them, or their owners, they're very good bikes and they do have a couple of USPs, they're easy to maintain having fewer bearings, they came in lots of colours etc, but they'll join a long list of British Brands who thought they could live on former glory forever. There's enough in the motoring world no one needs me to give examples.
If you want a British MTB, then Bird and Privateer will happily sell you a bike, they're made with at least an eye on riding them through British winters (even if they are multi-link) and Bird at least will sell you endless build options and a few colour choices. Like for like, they cost about half as much too. No, they're not really made in the UK, the frames are knocked up in the same factories in Asia as everyone one else's frames, but at least they're designed and assembled here. Bird made go the same way as Orange, they recently stepped back from a full-fat eBike at the prototype stage because they couldn't get the reliability to match their ethos on reliability, which is commendable, but every other MTB brand in the world is forging ahead with ebikes and just kicking the motors back to warranty when they eventually fail. If they're not careful, they'll be left behind.
This week Insta has been full of MTBers, pro and amateur, bemoaning the loss and showing old pics on their Orange Bikes, but that was the problem, they were old, very old pictures.
When Ashley Ball bought Orange back in 2015, he spoke at length about Company Values and history, which I suppose is commendable, but it almost feels like a British Condition, we have a long history of young innovative businesses making cutting edge products, that to morph into old fashioned, unimaginative, uncreative and uninspiring traditionalists as soon as they establish themselves.
Folded and welded frames were a great idea in the early days of Alu frames, but hydroformed frames are better. Cheaper and faster to produce, whilst offering weight and strength savings. Since then the MTB world has evolved endlessly, and yes Orange did too, they always managed to make a folded and welded alu frame to every new standard, but it was still heavy, had terrible noise resonance (they not called flying filing cabinets for no reason) and cost a lot of money, because skilled workers in England cost a lot more than robots in Asia.
I'm not dissing them, or their owners, they're very good bikes and they do have a couple of USPs, they're easy to maintain having fewer bearings, they came in lots of colours etc, but they'll join a long list of British Brands who thought they could live on former glory forever. There's enough in the motoring world no one needs me to give examples.
If you want a British MTB, then Bird and Privateer will happily sell you a bike, they're made with at least an eye on riding them through British winters (even if they are multi-link) and Bird at least will sell you endless build options and a few colour choices. Like for like, they cost about half as much too. No, they're not really made in the UK, the frames are knocked up in the same factories in Asia as everyone one else's frames, but at least they're designed and assembled here. Bird made go the same way as Orange, they recently stepped back from a full-fat eBike at the prototype stage because they couldn't get the reliability to match their ethos on reliability, which is commendable, but every other MTB brand in the world is forging ahead with ebikes and just kicking the motors back to warranty when they eventually fail. If they're not careful, they'll be left behind.
P-Jay said:
I'm sorry to hear it, but I'm not surprised.
This week Insta has been full of MTBers, pro and amateur, bemoaning the loss and showing old pics on their Orange Bikes, but that was the problem, they were old, very old pictures.
When Ashley Ball bought Orange back in 2015, he spoke at length about Company Values and history, which I suppose is commendable, but it almost feels like a British Condition, we have a long history of young innovative businesses making cutting edge products, that to morph into old fashioned, unimaginative, uncreative and uninspiring traditionalists as soon as they establish themselves.
Folded and welded frames were a great idea in the early days of Alu frames, but hydroformed frames are better. Cheaper and faster to produce, whilst offering weight and strength savings. Since then the MTB world has evolved endlessly, and yes Orange did too, they always managed to make a folded and welded alu frame to every new standard, but it was still heavy, had terrible noise resonance (they not called flying filing cabinets for no reason) and cost a lot of money, because skilled workers in England cost a lot more than robots in Asia.
I'm not dissing them, or their owners, they're very good bikes and they do have a couple of USPs, they're easy to maintain having fewer bearings, they came in lots of colours etc, but they'll join a long list of British Brands who thought they could live on former glory forever. There's enough in the motoring world no one needs me to give examples.
If you want a British MTB, then Bird and Privateer will happily sell you a bike, they're made with at least an eye on riding them through British winters (even if they are multi-link) and Bird at least will sell you endless build options and a few colour choices. Like for like, they cost about half as much too. No, they're not really made in the UK, the frames are knocked up in the same factories in Asia as everyone one else's frames, but at least they're designed and assembled here. Bird made go the same way as Orange, they recently stepped back from a full-fat eBike at the prototype stage because they couldn't get the reliability to match their ethos on reliability, which is commendable, but every other MTB brand in the world is forging ahead with ebikes and just kicking the motors back to warranty when they eventually fail. If they're not careful, they'll be left behind.
There are plenty of other British companies too; Airdrop, Privateer, Cotic, Stanton. They’ve managed to move forwards more than Orange did (although Stanton did have a wobble after the major investor withdrew his cash but they’re up and running again).This week Insta has been full of MTBers, pro and amateur, bemoaning the loss and showing old pics on their Orange Bikes, but that was the problem, they were old, very old pictures.
When Ashley Ball bought Orange back in 2015, he spoke at length about Company Values and history, which I suppose is commendable, but it almost feels like a British Condition, we have a long history of young innovative businesses making cutting edge products, that to morph into old fashioned, unimaginative, uncreative and uninspiring traditionalists as soon as they establish themselves.
Folded and welded frames were a great idea in the early days of Alu frames, but hydroformed frames are better. Cheaper and faster to produce, whilst offering weight and strength savings. Since then the MTB world has evolved endlessly, and yes Orange did too, they always managed to make a folded and welded alu frame to every new standard, but it was still heavy, had terrible noise resonance (they not called flying filing cabinets for no reason) and cost a lot of money, because skilled workers in England cost a lot more than robots in Asia.
I'm not dissing them, or their owners, they're very good bikes and they do have a couple of USPs, they're easy to maintain having fewer bearings, they came in lots of colours etc, but they'll join a long list of British Brands who thought they could live on former glory forever. There's enough in the motoring world no one needs me to give examples.
If you want a British MTB, then Bird and Privateer will happily sell you a bike, they're made with at least an eye on riding them through British winters (even if they are multi-link) and Bird at least will sell you endless build options and a few colour choices. Like for like, they cost about half as much too. No, they're not really made in the UK, the frames are knocked up in the same factories in Asia as everyone one else's frames, but at least they're designed and assembled here. Bird made go the same way as Orange, they recently stepped back from a full-fat eBike at the prototype stage because they couldn't get the reliability to match their ethos on reliability, which is commendable, but every other MTB brand in the world is forging ahead with ebikes and just kicking the motors back to warranty when they eventually fail. If they're not careful, they'll be left behind.
Nowt wrong with Taiwanese made frames; the welds on Stanton’s far east made bikes are neater than anything Orange managed and are better than Stanton’s UK made frames.
Orange had a huge history in DH racing with Animal Orange, Peaty, Faiclough, Global but seemed to fade away. Whilst I look back fondly on those days, the bikes do seem stuck in a time warp (yes I know they’ve updated geo etc) but it’s a tough sell when they cost the same as a carbon Santa Cruz etc.
I'm not really that surprised. I just can't fathom how bikes cost so much these days. I bought an Orange 222 new in 2001 for c £1800. According to the BoE inflation calculator, that should be the equivalent of £3500 today. However, the last time I looked at Orange, most of their stuff was £5k+ and some much more than that. The nearest equivalent (I guess the 279) I could see was double in real terms (actually 4x) what I paid, for essentially the same product. What revolutionary technical advances have been made to single-pivot DH bikes in the last 20+ years to justify the hike?
I think the whole biking industry needs a word with itself, as the pricing really has gone insane.
I think the whole biking industry needs a word with itself, as the pricing really has gone insane.
phil-sti said:
I had a Five of that vintage, was my first full sus trail bike replacing an On-One 456SS. Bought it frame only second hand and tarted it up myself with some bits I bought and collected direct from Orange. It was the bike that lead me away from DH and more into Trail/AM and now Enduro riding. Loved it at the time but I'm sure if i were to ride it now it'd feel all kids of wrong.
bobbo89 said:
phil-sti said:
I had a Five of that vintage, was my first full sus trail bike replacing an On-One 456SS. Bought it frame only second hand and tarted it up myself with some bits I bought and collected direct from Orange. It was the bike that lead me away from DH and more into Trail/AM and now Enduro riding. Loved it at the time but I'm sure if i were to ride it now it'd feel all kids of wrong.
Bikes after that were a much lighter Rocky Mountain and. Banshee Rune
[
Edited by phil-sti on Wednesday 10th January 09:18
phil-sti said:
Yeah single pivots got old very quickly and they did move with the times.
Bikes after that were a much lighter Rocky Mountain and. Banshee Rune
[
I've no issue with a single pivot, I'd have one today. More the geo and 26" wheels that was just the way all bikes were at the time, even the OG Nukeproof Mega that replaced it would feel odd by today's standards. Bikes after that were a much lighter Rocky Mountain and. Banshee Rune
[
Anyway, I'm really keen to see where this goes with Orange. I'm hoping for some bargains to crop up, hopefully frame only so I can buy something else I don't need.
phil-sti said:
Yeah single pivots got old very quickly and they didn't move with the times.
Bikes after that were a much lighter Rocky Mountain and. Banshee Rune
[
I had a Banshee Rune V2. I really liked that bike.Bikes after that were a much lighter Rocky Mountain and. Banshee Rune
[
Edited by phil-sti on Wednesday 10th January 09:18
That was my last 26 inch wheeled bike.
Back on topic, I read an article that said Orange have a range of 33 bikes. That’s nuts for a company of that size and can’t be helping (confusing for buyers and it must cost a lot to hold stock). If they do survive, I’d imagine it’ll be on a smaller ‘core’ range.
Court_S said:
phil-sti said:
Yeah single pivots got old very quickly and they didn't move with the times.
Bikes after that were a much lighter Rocky Mountain and. Banshee Rune
[
I had a Banshee Rune V2. I really liked that bike.Bikes after that were a much lighter Rocky Mountain and. Banshee Rune
[
Edited by phil-sti on Wednesday 10th January 09:18
That was my last 26 inch wheeled bike.
Back on topic, I read an article that said Orange have a range of 33 bikes. That’s nuts for a company of that size and can’t be helping (confusing for buyers and it must cost a lot to hold stock). If they do survive, I’d imagine it’ll be on a smaller ‘core’ range.
I was surprissed at just how many bikes orange how now, they really just need to get back to the core of what they do.
I had a quick look at their accounts on Companies House, I'm not an expert by any means, but you can see it happening since 2000.
Shareholders funds stays pretty steady at £2m, but money owed to creditors is climbing every year, as is stock. In their last set of published accounts, still worth £2m on paper, but sitting on £4m worth of stock, with £4m worth of creditors due in 12 months and cash reserves falling. I'd guess they started defaulting on payments last year, ran out of cash and couldn't shift the millions in bikes they had laying around due to the slow-down.
There's no smoking gun, no £2m dividend paid out or venture capital deal, they just can't sell bikes quick enough.
I hope someone buys it, but the model doesn't look sustainable to me, 33 models is far too many, especially as they only really make MTBs. If they do sell, and it's to survive long term, they'll need to do what Intense did, simplify the range, ship production to Asia and build a new audience. We might see some guys in Halifax lose their jobs which really sucks, or at least stop doing such skilled work, and in a year, see Orange bikes back in DH / EWS / XC with more contemporary alu and carbon frames. They need wide eyed teenagers seeing cool Orange riders on podiums. Not 60yo real ale drinkers riding 10 year old 5's to Pubs on Dartmoor, sadly that doesn't sell an MTB brand globally.
Shareholders funds stays pretty steady at £2m, but money owed to creditors is climbing every year, as is stock. In their last set of published accounts, still worth £2m on paper, but sitting on £4m worth of stock, with £4m worth of creditors due in 12 months and cash reserves falling. I'd guess they started defaulting on payments last year, ran out of cash and couldn't shift the millions in bikes they had laying around due to the slow-down.
There's no smoking gun, no £2m dividend paid out or venture capital deal, they just can't sell bikes quick enough.
I hope someone buys it, but the model doesn't look sustainable to me, 33 models is far too many, especially as they only really make MTBs. If they do sell, and it's to survive long term, they'll need to do what Intense did, simplify the range, ship production to Asia and build a new audience. We might see some guys in Halifax lose their jobs which really sucks, or at least stop doing such skilled work, and in a year, see Orange bikes back in DH / EWS / XC with more contemporary alu and carbon frames. They need wide eyed teenagers seeing cool Orange riders on podiums. Not 60yo real ale drinkers riding 10 year old 5's to Pubs on Dartmoor, sadly that doesn't sell an MTB brand globally.
I've just bought a new Orange a couple of months ago, a P7s. I love it. Very pretty steel frame and a decent spec - athough at the RRP it didn't compete with some other brands (£2600) I got it at half price from pauls cycles, and think I got myself a bit of a bargain!
I'm gutted to hear they're in trouble. I'm making a return to riding after many years away. As a teenager Peaty was killing it and Orange were king.
I'm gutted to hear they're in trouble. I'm making a return to riding after many years away. As a teenager Peaty was killing it and Orange were king.
Gilhooligan said:
Sad to hear. I never considered owning one as I find their full suspension single pivot designs a bit ugly. I’m assuming they aren’t as efficient at pedalling as other frame designs e.g. Horst link too.
I think a great deal of the bobbing reputation comes from older models. Although single pivot, the geo has changed over the years and today’s rear shocks are much better than in the past. I genuinely don’t notice any issues on my Four, although I do tend to sit and spin smoothly at a regular cadence when going uphill rather than stand and mash the pedals. I don’t bother flipping the shock to pedal mode as it’s not needed. benny.c said:
I think a great deal of the bobbing reputation comes from older models. Although single pivot, the geo has changed over the years and today’s rear shocks are much better than in the past. I genuinely don’t notice any issues on my Four, although I do tend to sit and spin smoothly at a regular cadence when going uphill rather than stand and mash the pedals. I don’t bother flipping the shock to pedal mode as it’s not needed.
Yeah that’s fair, I haven’t ridden a modern Orange bike. Less bearings to replace on those frames is a bonus too ha. Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff