Road Cycling - what's with all the drug cheating ?
Discussion
HundredthIdiot said:
Lance doped, I'm convinced of it.
I don't like him, but that has nothing to do with my opinion on whether he's cheated. It's just a balance of probability thing. In the era that he competed it was not believable to beat a bunch of dopers whilst staying clean.
And there's all the Simeoni stuff...
Ah well, gut feeling definately outweighs the hundreds (maybe thousands?) of independent tests that have been sifted through again and again without finding anything.I don't like him, but that has nothing to do with my opinion on whether he's cheated. It's just a balance of probability thing. In the era that he competed it was not believable to beat a bunch of dopers whilst staying clean.
And there's all the Simeoni stuff...
Out of curiosity, are there any day to day products that amateurs use and are considered non harmful that would land a competitor in hot water?
shouldbworking said:
Ah well, gut feeling definately outweighs the hundreds (maybe thousands?) of independent tests that have been sifted through again and again without finding anything.
Balance of probability is not the same as gut feeling. The "most tested athlete" myth is just that. He isn't. Do some research.
Fittster said:
Have the performances of top riders reduced in recent years? That would be clear evidence that there is less use of drugs.
Yes, for instance average speeds have gone down in the TdF. And they look knackered the whole time. Particularly this year, many were pedalling squares.In my opinion, the biological passport programme and emerging tests for autologous blood transfusions are reducing the cost/benefit to the degree that it is now possible for clean athletes to do well at the top level. I hope so, anyway.
However, people whose opinion I respect (including several medically qualified experts in the field) still see the grand tour podiums as a bit of a doper zone. It requires significant resources to avoid detection and only the top riders can afford it.
thegavster said:
Now I've not researched this thoroughly, I've simply typed it into Google, however the first result doesn't exactly back you up?
http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html
I understand that a lot of time is simply cruising which may skew the averages slightly, however if we're talking average speeds, that's what that website lists. No big spikes there IMO.
Hmmm. Maybe I'm misremembering the analysis I read. Some analysis of specific climbs here:http://bikeraceinfo.com/tdf/tdfstats.html
I understand that a lot of time is simply cruising which may skew the averages slightly, however if we're talking average speeds, that's what that website lists. No big spikes there IMO.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-fr...
And more topically:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kohl-not-possible-...
As has been said before, it's not 'all cyclists are dopers' as it goes on in all professional sports at a high level.
The Operacion Puerto case shows that Dr. Fuente's client list was an extensive one, including tennis & football players... The US Baseball Leagues have something of a reputation too.
My personal view is that because of the large amount of testing that goes on in road cycling, you're more likely to catch people that do dope. If you had the same degree of scrutiny in football, you might have similar headlines...except of course there's a lot more money in football.
Cheers,
Tom
The Operacion Puerto case shows that Dr. Fuente's client list was an extensive one, including tennis & football players... The US Baseball Leagues have something of a reputation too.
My personal view is that because of the large amount of testing that goes on in road cycling, you're more likely to catch people that do dope. If you had the same degree of scrutiny in football, you might have similar headlines...except of course there's a lot more money in football.
Cheers,
Tom
HundredthIdiot said:
I read that too.Kohl said:
“I was tested 200 times during my career, and 100 times I had drugs in my body,” he said, according to the New York Times. “I was caught, but 99 other times, I wasn’t. Riders think they can get away with doping because most of the time they do. Even if there is a new test for blood doping, I’m not even sure it will scare riders into stopping. The problem is just that bad.”
The main problem as i see it is the punishment is not enough,two years is actually one when you take a winters trainig into account.It should be a ban from the sport in any form for life.In Italy and France it is now a criminal offense,the younger riders definatley have a different mindset thats what the sports governing bodies should concentrate on.Saying you cant do the tour on drugs is an excuse,you can but you will be slower, fact.
pablo said:
NitroNick said:
Unfortunately it got to a stage where you couldn't win a race as a pro unless you were juicing up.
Pros had to start taking banned substances in order to get paid. The guys who weren't willing to take anything slipped back into obscurity just leaving a sport dominated by cheats.
tahts a pretty good summary, even the seemingly good guys lke Millar succombed in the end. Laurent Fignon's book is a great read. i dont think contador is guilty, there is more to this than is currently being released. i will be very surprised if he has knowingly taken something o nthe banned substance list...Pros had to start taking banned substances in order to get paid. The guys who weren't willing to take anything slipped back into obscurity just leaving a sport dominated by cheats.
the doping control is getting very good now and its almost too hard to cheat the system. with the likes of pelizotti getting caught so easily earlier this year its a real fool who tries.
a rather telling fact is the first case of these plasticisers was on the 20th, just as the tour entered the mountain stages of the Alps...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There are already blood bags on the market which apparently don't leak plasticizers into the blood, so jam jars will not be required.http://www.neovex.com/Neovex%20Website%20070416_fi...
mrandy said:
The platicisers are associated with EPO but any form of intravenous drip is banned
Well the plasticisers are associated with blood doping, which may or may not have anything to do with EPO (you could altitude train to get haematocrit up and then transfuse the blood later, which is obviously still illegal but would leave the blood clear of drugs).You can get a TUE for an IV, although no-one has ever gotten away with a retrospective TUE before. Oh wait, Lance did...
It's a complete and utter clusterf
k isn't it?
When this first broke I did some of the reading around the story and naively gave AC the benefit of the doubt. Now it looks like I have been fooled again.
Do we think AC was getting worried about Andy Schleck and had a quick top-up, or did those naughty plasticizers come from somewhere else? Is the sheer effort cycling is making actually now making us out to be worse than other sports. God alone knows how much steroids US baseball and football players are taking. No / very little testing you see. Here it's a case of don't ask don't tell.
I guess the sheer endurance requriements of a racing season pushed follks into taking stuff way back in time and we have not really cleared the house for many many years. What is the answer? I simply don't know. Is it a free for all, take what you want approach? I honestly don't think so as people will not take the safe limit of anything they will always push those limits so they can stand on the top step of the podium. Is it lifetime bans? thesse could be a way forward but I suspect some competitors would still gamble on not getting caught and in any case this approach would take some years to filter through. All I know right now is yet again the fan has been let down by someone they might admire.
In the long term I think Lance is wrong, it is about the bike. Our sport is down to us just jumping on our bikes and enjoying the emotions and memories from our time in the saddle. I'm off to get some miles in.
k isn't it?When this first broke I did some of the reading around the story and naively gave AC the benefit of the doubt. Now it looks like I have been fooled again.
Do we think AC was getting worried about Andy Schleck and had a quick top-up, or did those naughty plasticizers come from somewhere else? Is the sheer effort cycling is making actually now making us out to be worse than other sports. God alone knows how much steroids US baseball and football players are taking. No / very little testing you see. Here it's a case of don't ask don't tell.
I guess the sheer endurance requriements of a racing season pushed follks into taking stuff way back in time and we have not really cleared the house for many many years. What is the answer? I simply don't know. Is it a free for all, take what you want approach? I honestly don't think so as people will not take the safe limit of anything they will always push those limits so they can stand on the top step of the podium. Is it lifetime bans? thesse could be a way forward but I suspect some competitors would still gamble on not getting caught and in any case this approach would take some years to filter through. All I know right now is yet again the fan has been let down by someone they might admire.
In the long term I think Lance is wrong, it is about the bike. Our sport is down to us just jumping on our bikes and enjoying the emotions and memories from our time in the saddle. I'm off to get some miles in.
Honest team managers like Garmin have is the answer and a lifetime ban from any involvment in the sport for people who are caught.The 2 year ban ,return then sit on some drug advisory board lecturing on why not to take stuff and geting paid for the privalige is a joke.The team manger must also take responsibility for keeping his team clean.I view dopers in the same light as the theiving scum who steal your bike from the shed
rant over.........
rant over.........
With you on that. Teams and team directors have to lead. Hopefully others will follow what J Vaughters and Garmin are doing.
I don't want to see someone invincible as they are doped up, I want to see the great days and also the bad days. We all have days where we seem to have a permanent tailwind and there are others where we pray for the end of the climb, why should our heroes be any different?
I don't want to see someone invincible as they are doped up, I want to see the great days and also the bad days. We all have days where we seem to have a permanent tailwind and there are others where we pray for the end of the climb, why should our heroes be any different?
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