What's wrong with eggbeaters on a road bike?
Discussion
For MTBing I use SPDs but for road riding I prefer my road pedals (Outland Look Keo type).
For longer road rides where you are transmitting a lot of power/pressure on the pedals for sustained periods the larger platform is simply more comfortable. For shorter rides, riding where you are frequently free wheeling to give you some respite (commuting or technical off-roading) or gentler leisure riding you probably won't notice any discomfort from mtb SPDs, but the smaller contact point can cause discomfort on long rides where you are producing sustained higher power outputs.
I find the smaller SPD cleats tend to slowly eat their way through the shoes soles whereas the larger road cleats don't - I think metal plates for egg beaters (or MTB SPDs) are a good idea if you want your shoes to last.
For shorter road rides I'd be happy enough to use SPDs and for commuting I'd rather use SPDs or old fashioned toe clips & straps - You don't want to walk any distance on road cleats.
For longer road rides where you are transmitting a lot of power/pressure on the pedals for sustained periods the larger platform is simply more comfortable. For shorter rides, riding where you are frequently free wheeling to give you some respite (commuting or technical off-roading) or gentler leisure riding you probably won't notice any discomfort from mtb SPDs, but the smaller contact point can cause discomfort on long rides where you are producing sustained higher power outputs.
I find the smaller SPD cleats tend to slowly eat their way through the shoes soles whereas the larger road cleats don't - I think metal plates for egg beaters (or MTB SPDs) are a good idea if you want your shoes to last.
For shorter road rides I'd be happy enough to use SPDs and for commuting I'd rather use SPDs or old fashioned toe clips & straps - You don't want to walk any distance on road cleats.
AnotherClarkey said:
Where does all this energy being consumed by the shoe go? Do they begin to grow red hot after several miles? Or emit a roar like that of Concorde taking off?
Beautifullu illustrates the BS associated with modern cycling sjg said:
Small cleat means a good amount of your foot isn't supported by the pedal. Your effort can partly (in quite a small way) be used to deform the shoe rather than be put into the transmission to drive you forward. Bigger cleats / pedals reduce that effect.
robpearson said:
I use eggbeaters on my mountain bike and candy SL's on my road bike for the same reason that I don't want to have two pairs of shoes.
I have to admit that I think there is a little truth in the pedaling efficiency thing. I don't know anything about other brands, but with the crank bros pedals, and the egg beaters especially, you are transferring force down onto the springs that are holding the cleat onto the pedal. This is a spring thats designed to open and close to allow you to unclip - there is play. I have the metal shoe protectors between the cleat and my shoes and you can clearly see where this repeated rubbing has worn into them significantly whilst I wouldn't go so far as to say they are wasting alot of energy, there's got to be some loss from this movement surely?
I'm not sure. I don't know the design very well but it the pedal can physically bend then yes maybe there is some loss. There may also be some loss due to friction if there is a lot of (lateral) play.I have to admit that I think there is a little truth in the pedaling efficiency thing. I don't know anything about other brands, but with the crank bros pedals, and the egg beaters especially, you are transferring force down onto the springs that are holding the cleat onto the pedal. This is a spring thats designed to open and close to allow you to unclip - there is play. I have the metal shoe protectors between the cleat and my shoes and you can clearly see where this repeated rubbing has worn into them significantly whilst I wouldn't go so far as to say they are wasting alot of energy, there's got to be some loss from this movement surely?
However if it's a spring like the SPD mechanism then I very much doubt it.
I don't think it really matters if there were even a spring directly in between your foot and the pedal as the same force will be transferred irrespective. It may feel less stable and the deflection of the spring may seem like it's wasting energy but you will still be applying the same torque to the crank.
Over the years I've used Look, Time, SPD and Eggbeaters.
I currently use eggbeaters on one or two of my road bikes, so I can use MTB shoes for commuting and general tooling around. I originally bought the eggbeaters for cyclocross as they have great mud clearance.
Eggbeaters don't feel as good to use as proper road pedals. On my racing bikes I use Time pedals, which feel great but keep breaking. For racing there's no way I'd use MTB pedals, too much risk of unclipping in a sprint.
If I was starting again, I'd use:
- SPDs for casual road use
- Eggbeaters for CX (or just stick with SPDs for comaptibility)
- Looks or SPD-SLs for racing
A couple of weeks ago I saw someone do his first CX race in Looks. Very entertaining!
As far as the flexibility/stiffness/energy loss thing goes, the argument in general is that whilst energy is not magically dissipated, if it isn't returned in a way that propels you forward then it may as well be. It's mostly psychological though.
I currently use eggbeaters on one or two of my road bikes, so I can use MTB shoes for commuting and general tooling around. I originally bought the eggbeaters for cyclocross as they have great mud clearance.
Eggbeaters don't feel as good to use as proper road pedals. On my racing bikes I use Time pedals, which feel great but keep breaking. For racing there's no way I'd use MTB pedals, too much risk of unclipping in a sprint.
If I was starting again, I'd use:
- SPDs for casual road use
- Eggbeaters for CX (or just stick with SPDs for comaptibility)
- Looks or SPD-SLs for racing
A couple of weeks ago I saw someone do his first CX race in Looks. Very entertaining!
As far as the flexibility/stiffness/energy loss thing goes, the argument in general is that whilst energy is not magically dissipated, if it isn't returned in a way that propels you forward then it may as well be. It's mostly psychological though.
Interesting comments so far......I've done about 100km on my eggbeaters so far and they are superb although I can't compare them to road pedals as I've never used them.
Like I said before though; My knees are a little dodgy and SPD's just make them hurt after a while. The Crank Brother style clamp offers enough movement to avoid this but remains suitably solid for cycling hard and jumps. I've never had a problem with my Mallets coming loose when pegging it down mountains so I don't see how the eggbeater will come loose on a road bike whilst sprinting.
Very happy!
Like I said before though; My knees are a little dodgy and SPD's just make them hurt after a while. The Crank Brother style clamp offers enough movement to avoid this but remains suitably solid for cycling hard and jumps. I've never had a problem with my Mallets coming loose when pegging it down mountains so I don't see how the eggbeater will come loose on a road bike whilst sprinting.
Very happy!
FWDRacer said:
AnotherClarkey said:
Where does all this energy being consumed by the shoe go? Do they begin to grow red hot after several miles? Or emit a roar like that of Concorde taking off?
Beautifullu illustrates the BS associated with modern cycling sjg said:
Small cleat means a good amount of your foot isn't supported by the pedal. Your effort can partly (in quite a small way) be used to deform the shoe rather than be put into the transmission to drive you forward. Bigger cleats / pedals reduce that effect.
A well designed road pedal with a larger platform with a well placed axle combined with a properly positioned cleat will allow you to pedal more efficiently. Maybe not if if you're looking at the physics of the energy required to just turn the cranks, but definitely if you're taking into account the effort used by the rider to stabilise the foot while putting the power from your legs through it.
Uriel said:
A well designed road pedal with a larger platform with a well placed axle combined with a properly positioned cleat will allow you to pedal more efficiently. Maybe not if if you're looking at the physics of the energy required to just turn the cranks, but definitely if you're taking into account the effort used by the rider to stabilise the foot while putting the power from your legs through it.
So advocating back to toe clips then? <Devilsadvocatemode>.Seriously?
No, but I think that unless you're using shoes that are perfectly rigid and clipped in solidly without any play or float (in which case there is no distinction between the platform of the pedal and the sole of the shoe), there is a certain amount of work involved in keeping the power going through the spindle of the pedal.
The larger the platform of the pedal, the tighter the contact between the cleat and the pedal, the less float and less the cleat interacts with any springs or mechanicals of the pedal, the better the situation is (forgetting comfort/practicalities etc). Given that, eggbeaters aren't really very good pedals if transfer of power is paramount. People use them because of other factors like ability to clear mud and the ease with which you can clip in in a hurry. Personally, I think for transfer of power, SPD-Rs were the best design, but just as eggbeaters aren't the best for the road, SPD-Rs aren't necessarily the best for all applications. That's not to say that there is anything 'wrong' with using eggbeaters on the road or Keos on an MTB, but I think it's oversimplifying it to ignore the differences, even if in your situation they may not be significant. I wouldn't like to see Chris Hoy launch a sprint on eggbeaters.
The larger the platform of the pedal, the tighter the contact between the cleat and the pedal, the less float and less the cleat interacts with any springs or mechanicals of the pedal, the better the situation is (forgetting comfort/practicalities etc). Given that, eggbeaters aren't really very good pedals if transfer of power is paramount. People use them because of other factors like ability to clear mud and the ease with which you can clip in in a hurry. Personally, I think for transfer of power, SPD-Rs were the best design, but just as eggbeaters aren't the best for the road, SPD-Rs aren't necessarily the best for all applications. That's not to say that there is anything 'wrong' with using eggbeaters on the road or Keos on an MTB, but I think it's oversimplifying it to ignore the differences, even if in your situation they may not be significant. I wouldn't like to see Chris Hoy launch a sprint on eggbeaters.
Uriel said:
FWDRacer said:
AnotherClarkey said:
Where does all this energy being consumed by the shoe go? Do they begin to grow red hot after several miles? Or emit a roar like that of Concorde taking off?
Beautifullu illustrates the BS associated with modern cycling sjg said:
Small cleat means a good amount of your foot isn't supported by the pedal. Your effort can partly (in quite a small way) be used to deform the shoe rather than be put into the transmission to drive you forward. Bigger cleats / pedals reduce that effect.
A well designed road pedal with a larger platform with a well placed axle combined with a properly positioned cleat will allow you to pedal more efficiently. Maybe not if if you're looking at the physics of the energy required to just turn the cranks, but definitely if you're taking into account the effort used by the rider to stabilise the foot while putting the power from your legs through it.
Uriel said:
FWDRacer said:
AnotherClarkey said:
Where does all this energy being consumed by the shoe go? Do they begin to grow red hot after several miles? Or emit a roar like that of Concorde taking off?
Beautifullu illustrates the BS associated with modern cycling sjg said:
Small cleat means a good amount of your foot isn't supported by the pedal. Your effort can partly (in quite a small way) be used to deform the shoe rather than be put into the transmission to drive you forward. Bigger cleats / pedals reduce that effect.
A well designed road pedal with a larger platform with a well placed axle combined with a properly positioned cleat will allow you to pedal more efficiently. Maybe not if if you're looking at the physics of the energy required to just turn the cranks, but definitely if you're taking into account the effort used by the rider to stabilise the foot while putting the power from your legs through it.
But anyway there's a big difference between the sensation of stability and *actually* delivering more power to the crank. Every pedal I've looked at has a perfectly placed axle that is axial with the crank interface. The difference in how someone applies force to the pedal is tuned by the positioning of the cleat on the shoe. The optimum position for each rider differs depending on personal preference but assuming all things being equal and the shoe being the same for each cleat type then there really cannot be much difference.
What you've described makes it sound like SPD's slop arround all over the place, rocking and sliding here and there. Admittedly they do have a fair amount of float and if adjusted loosely then your foot can move about but if your foot slides about when riding then it is down to poor technique. I'm not a particularly experienced rider but have no problems at all with my SPD's.
You are right that there will be some loss of energy due to friction but this really is minimal and if you were to tighten up an SPD then it shouldn't an issue. Even with my SPD's loose I don't have an issue with stabilising my feet. Even when I rode 90 miles from Ox to Cambs last year I have to say that my ankles were the last thing that were aching after the ride
I'm not saying you haven't made any valid points but like rotating wheel mass roadies like to make a big play about bike stuff when there really isn't any logic behind it.
Fatman2 said:
Sadly that's not quite right. Holding a block of cheese at arms length requires a fair amount of work as your arms have to react the weight of the cheese due to gravity (the cheese has some potential energy). So there's quite a lot of work being done to keep it still and prevent the cheese from falling to the floor.
Yeah, that's argument I was making. I was talking about 'work' from a physics point of view, that being the product of force and distance. The cheese doesn't move, so just looking at it from a physical point of view, there is no work being done. Of course from a biological point of view there is a massive amount of effort going into keeping the cheese aloft. My argument was with the point made earlier confusing the physical and the biological (no heat, light or noise produced by the use of eggbeaters or less rigid soled shoes, therefore the pedals must be efficient and all energy supplied by the legs must be going into the turning of the cranks).It's not SPDs that I think slop about, it's eggbeaters, which I believe is in fact a feature that a lot of people that use them want, for reasons which no doubt trump any tiny loss of efficiency they may have.
They way I see it; if you take it to extremes and had some cleated slippers with a soft and floppy sole, you'd have a hard time pedaling. Wearing those, you'd be better off the larger the pedal and the more rigidly the cleat clipped to the pedal. In the real world we have stiff soled cycling shoes, but they're not perfectly stiff so suffer in the same way those slippers would, just to a lesser degree. And similarly, you'd benefit from the larger pedal and more secure clipping, just to the lesser degree.
Don't get me wrong, I think actual benefits are tiny, not some night and day thing that is going to aid a weak rider or hamper a strong one. But what do they say about the aggregation of marginal gains?
SkinnyBoy said:
Thinking of getting the Eggbeaters for my steed as the spds I have tend to restrict the float I need. What's the consensus on their durability over M520's which are pretty bomb proof?
Depends on your definition of "durability". Crank Bros pedals are designed to be serviced. I've not used mine enough to have first hand experience, but apparently if you treat them as "fit and forget" they fall apart sooner than, say, SPDs. On the flipside, if you maintain them properly they last a long time. Apparently.FWIW I find them worse to clip in to than SPDs. It might be partly due my cleat position which is as far towards mid-sole as I can get it. Clipping out is very easy, but then I've never had difficulty clipping out of any pedals.
BliarOut said:
Talk to me about eggbeaters, I've got a dodgy knee (two missing ligaments) so I have to be able to fall off without unclipping. Are they any better than my current half clips?
Ouch....can't be good....nevertheless the Eggbeaters give a lot more "float" than SPD's. That is to say, I can twist my foot up to 20 degrees (15 is what I have it set at for easier removal).This means my feet are not rigid and it allows my knees the necessary movement I don't get from SPD's. It's only subtle but enough so I don't the pain I suffered with my M520's.
I've also found when I've come off my MTB, the CB Mallet pedals unclip without too many problems meaning I've managed to avoid any serious knee injuries. I don't believe the result would be the same with Shimano SPD's due to how tight they hold you in.
With regards to reliability, CB pedals have improved massively this year with the new sealed BB designs. They're not quite as robust as the Shimano's but with a little TLC, they'll last long enough. I honestly can't fault mine and would never get anything else. Certainly not the Shimano SPD's but then it's also personal preference.
Everyone's riding style and needs are different so you need to find something that you feel comfortable with.
I'm very proficient / well practiced at falling off my mountain bike, and in 4 years of use i have only once failed to unclip from my crank bros pedals - they were malletts, and i use egg beaters now as i passed the mallets to the wife so she had a platform to stand on if she wanted to ride unclipped. unless you come to a complete stop before remembering to unclip you shouldnt have any difficulty getting out of your pedals.
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