Honda S2000... widowmake
Discussion
BigGriff said:
The S2k is nice and handles well, but the TVR is a completely different league.
Performance AND running costs, I bet. S2k can be run for not much more than hot-hatch costs (which I think partially accounts for the number of inexperienced people who go to one and have a spectacular 'off'), whereas even at an independent an old Tiv (let alone a 6-cyl one) costs a fair whack more.
I can understand why the S2k gets compared to the Chim*/Griff**, on the basis of 2nd-hand purchase cost. But the Tiv's are substantially older for the money and need more TLC as a result (not withstanding the comparative build quality...my S started immediately (first turn of the starter-motor, it felt like) this morning after ~4 weeks standing outside on the drive). The S is 'fuss-free', ergonomically-sound*** fast-roadster motoring, whereas the Tiv's trade some of that fuss for a bit more 'character' (V8 burble, interior design (+ and -)) and performance.
* Not THAT different, performance-wise, IMHO - 1000+kg and 210bhp (torquey) vs 1250kg and 236bhp (peaky). On the move above say 30mph there'd not be a lot of air between them on the straights.
** OK, I wouldn't even THINK of arguing in a straight-line, esp with a 450/500. Nice twisty bumpy A/B-road would be more interesting comparison though...
*** Lovely driving position in the Honda...whereas in the Chim/Griff there's a lot of leg-offset and I had nowhere for left foot except UNDER the clutch pedal, which didn't feel particularly safe.
What utter b*llox!
It's a rear wheel drive, powerful car and anyone who calls such a thing a widow maker is obviously the sort of knob who would be better suited to a Rover 25.
As for s2ki.com, I gave up with that site as it has such a high ratio of whining knobs who don't want to take their cars out in the wind / rain / sun, or drive over 32.85mph, or worry about the recall 100.235.33222.4556767.332 which fixes the suspension if you turn precisely 13.8degrees left on Wednesdays, or, or, or....
Just not enough people who just get out there and drive it.
I was at the ring once with mine and was handed "respect" by a fellow s2ki'er for "taking the widow maker out when it was wet & slippery". Balls of Steel? Nah, I just slowed down!
Loved that car. Absolutely brilliant in every way. Would thoroughly recommend one.
It's a rear wheel drive, powerful car and anyone who calls such a thing a widow maker is obviously the sort of knob who would be better suited to a Rover 25.
As for s2ki.com, I gave up with that site as it has such a high ratio of whining knobs who don't want to take their cars out in the wind / rain / sun, or drive over 32.85mph, or worry about the recall 100.235.33222.4556767.332 which fixes the suspension if you turn precisely 13.8degrees left on Wednesdays, or, or, or....
Just not enough people who just get out there and drive it.
I was at the ring once with mine and was handed "respect" by a fellow s2ki'er for "taking the widow maker out when it was wet & slippery". Balls of Steel? Nah, I just slowed down!
Loved that car. Absolutely brilliant in every way. Would thoroughly recommend one.
pikey said:
I was at the ring once with mine and was handed "respect" by a fellow s2ki'er for "taking the widow maker out when it was wet & slippery". Balls of Steel? Nah, I just slowed down!
It's a powerful rwd car with no traction aids...so you drive it as such. Not a difficult concept, surely?!? If someone wants to use the accelerator like an on/off switch, they should buy an Audi TT.
I used to be in the car trade and have driven plenty of cars including plenty of RWD sports cars, I can honestly say the S2000 is the best car I have owned. As others have said on here the unitiated would get out of a FWD hatch into any RWD sports car and may have a moment or 2 just down to not knowing the charecteristics of the car ie RWD.
Some of the problems people debate do come down to the S02 Bridgestones, there is a debate currently on s2ki.co.uk. Even in the hand book it states that the tyres are dry weather tyres as IIRC the tread pattern is fairly narrow so not as efficient in the wet.
That said if you do 'hoon' around too much in the wet eventually the inevitable will happen, drive it normally in poor conditions ie below 6000 rpm, and the car behaves no worse than my old 'forgiving' MX5.
Give it a go its fantastic and on the plus side quite rare, and in the dry its very quick.
Some of the problems people debate do come down to the S02 Bridgestones, there is a debate currently on s2ki.co.uk. Even in the hand book it states that the tyres are dry weather tyres as IIRC the tread pattern is fairly narrow so not as efficient in the wet.
That said if you do 'hoon' around too much in the wet eventually the inevitable will happen, drive it normally in poor conditions ie below 6000 rpm, and the car behaves no worse than my old 'forgiving' MX5.
Give it a go its fantastic and on the plus side quite rare, and in the dry its very quick.
My housemate had an early one and the only thing "wrong" with it was the back end tended to break away pretty sharply when it let go and it could get a bit unsettled by crap tarmac mid-bend. Which clearly makes it a death trap ... or possibly it's just a rear wheel drive sports car? Hmm ... tough one. If you were used to hustling a Clio down the back lanes and you jumped into an S2000 and tried to drive it exactly the same way, you'd probably stuff the car ... but you can hardly blame that on the S2000. If you hopped out of an MR2 into the S2000, as my mate did, you'd have a much better chance of understanding what was going on.
Pikey
top post's fella !
I only looked on S2k for general buying advice, then saw a 12 page thread of scare-mongering re spinning in damp/wet weather, impossible in snow etc etc.
Made me curious, I thought, if these cars are SO dangerous, "shirley" Honda wouldn't sell them & why do I see them driven in all weathers?
Hence this thread to sense check with the valued opinions of the PH massive, as A) if I get one, I'll want to drive it as much as poss & B)wouldnt want the Mrs to be at risk when driving it
O/T, so they do Bitburg at the 'ring even more reason to go
Thanks again all, for the excellent feedback
Finchy
top post's fella !
I only looked on S2k for general buying advice, then saw a 12 page thread of scare-mongering re spinning in damp/wet weather, impossible in snow etc etc.
Made me curious, I thought, if these cars are SO dangerous, "shirley" Honda wouldn't sell them & why do I see them driven in all weathers?
Hence this thread to sense check with the valued opinions of the PH massive, as A) if I get one, I'll want to drive it as much as poss & B)wouldnt want the Mrs to be at risk when driving it
O/T, so they do Bitburg at the 'ring even more reason to go
Thanks again all, for the excellent feedback
Finchy
Don't forget that most sports cars nowadays have traction control and the vast majority of S2000's don't (only a recent option IIRC) as my friend found out recently when I was following him in his Boxster him in my S2000 he gave it a bootful in the wet and luckily managed to catch the back end (just about). Afterwards he commented that his car would never do that!
Take the traction control off and see what happens then, was my reply!!!!
Take the traction control off and see what happens then, was my reply!!!!
ATG said:
My housemate had an early one and the only thing "wrong" with it was the back end tended to break away pretty sharply when it let go and it could get a bit unsettled by crap tarmac mid-bend. Which clearly makes it a death trap ... or possibly it's just a rear wheel drive sports car? Hmm ... tough one. If you were used to hustling a Clio down the back lanes and you jumped into an S2000 and tried to drive it exactly the same way, you'd probably stuff the car ... but you can hardly blame that on the S2000. If you hopped out of an MR2 into the S2000, as my mate did, you'd have a much better chance of understanding what was going on.
The back-end IS very susceptible to geometry - the pre-02 had the initial geo which was fairly unforgiving, then they introduced an optional geo adjustment (retro-fittable to pre-02) with the '02 which made it understeery and lost steering feel (think granny-spec settings), and I think there were other suspension setting changes with '02 also. With the '04 they softened it off a little but gave it probably the best day-to-day compromise, although not as 'hardcore' as the initial set-up.
I had my car done on a Beissbarth rig to the spec I wanted (agile with low castor and moderate-only camber) a couple of months after I bought it and the changes were genuinely clear to see/feel. Back-end now clearly more progressive.
finchy said:
Pikey
top post's fella !
I only looked on S2k for general buying advice, then saw a 12 page thread of scare-mongering re spinning in damp/wet weather, impossible in snow etc etc.
Made me curious, I thought, if these cars are SO dangerous, "shirley" Honda wouldn't sell them & why do I see them driven in all weathers?
Hence this thread to sense check with the valued opinions of the PH massive, as A) if I get one, I'll want to drive it as much as poss & B)wouldnt want the Mrs to be at risk when driving it
top post's fella !
I only looked on S2k for general buying advice, then saw a 12 page thread of scare-mongering re spinning in damp/wet weather, impossible in snow etc etc.
Made me curious, I thought, if these cars are SO dangerous, "shirley" Honda wouldn't sell them & why do I see them driven in all weathers?
Hence this thread to sense check with the valued opinions of the PH massive, as A) if I get one, I'll want to drive it as much as poss & B)wouldnt want the Mrs to be at risk when driving it
PH is the [I]only[/I] place to come for car advice. I've just got a Clio 172 cup for the GF and she's been reading on the Clio website how they are a death trap at this time of year because they don't have ABS. Who are these Nobbers who don't realise that you need to alter your driving for the conditions (and can they please clearly mark their cars as such so that we can avoid them)?
As a funny aside the GF has just driven the Clio back from my parents on her own. The first long drive she's had in it. She was complaining that it's hard work getting it to go round corners! Me thinks she has got used to RWD in the S2000 and MX-5!
finchy said:
Pikey
top post's fella !
I only looked on S2k for general buying advice, then saw a 12 page thread of scare-mongering re spinning in damp/wet weather, impossible in snow etc etc.
Made me curious, I thought, if these cars are SO dangerous, "shirley" Honda wouldn't sell them & why do I see them driven in all weathers?
Hence this thread to sense check with the valued opinions of the PH massive, as A) if I get one, I'll want to drive it as much as poss & B)wouldnt want the Mrs to be at risk when driving it
O/T, so they do Bitburg at the 'ring even more reason to go
Thanks again all, for the excellent feedback
Finchy
I was responsible for starting that thread, it was a bit of sarcasm on my part and it got carried away! top post's fella !
I only looked on S2k for general buying advice, then saw a 12 page thread of scare-mongering re spinning in damp/wet weather, impossible in snow etc etc.
Made me curious, I thought, if these cars are SO dangerous, "shirley" Honda wouldn't sell them & why do I see them driven in all weathers?
Hence this thread to sense check with the valued opinions of the PH massive, as A) if I get one, I'll want to drive it as much as poss & B)wouldnt want the Mrs to be at risk when driving it
O/T, so they do Bitburg at the 'ring even more reason to go
Thanks again all, for the excellent feedback
Finchy
Wish I hadn't started it
Russ.
Edited by RusS 2k on Friday 29th December 11:17
finchy said:
Made me curious, I thought, if these cars are SO dangerous, "shirley" Honda wouldn't sell them & why do I see them driven in all weathers?
There is the other side, that some modern cars have driver aids that are simply incredible. My Cayman's stability management system for example that *almost* defies physics. The S2000 is a b*tch on the limit and a pain to pull back if it goes, but the Cayman has a computer that figures out if a) you'd like a bit of help or b) you'd like A LOT of help and when you see (b) in action you're absolutely amazed. This means there's the downside of knowing PSM is there and therefore one explores that limit more. This isn't a bad characteristic of the S2000, but a selling point of the Cayman ( & whole Porsche range). They're both rear wheeled drive, high powered cars, but Porsche sell to rich knobs who'll need it more 
finchy said:
O/T, so they do Bitburg at the 'ring even more reason to go
It's brewed round the corner! Exceedingly fresh! PS. I know someone (friend actually, so I should watch what I say ) who lost the rear end of his S2000 on a B-road corner and put it backwards through a fence.
The general feedback he got from s2ki was that the journey from London to Scotland in the wet was a long way and the S02 tyres he had soaked up the water. When he was later coming round that ill-fated corner, the tyres let go and he was through the fence.
Nothing about "bit too much right foot there mate", and "oh dear, well at least you're okay. How about some performance driving lessons for Christmas?" Nope! It was the tyres. Must have been the tyres they said
Personally, I found that driving 7 hours to Nurburgring, 30 laps round in the wet and 7 hours home again... all on S02s gave me no problems at all. Maybe I had modified S02 tyres?
) who lost the rear end of his S2000 on a B-road corner and put it backwards through a fence. The general feedback he got from s2ki was that the journey from London to Scotland in the wet was a long way and the S02 tyres he had soaked up the water. When he was later coming round that ill-fated corner, the tyres let go and he was through the fence.
Nothing about "bit too much right foot there mate", and "oh dear, well at least you're okay. How about some performance driving lessons for Christmas?" Nope! It was the tyres. Must have been the tyres they said
Personally, I found that driving 7 hours to Nurburgring, 30 laps round in the wet and 7 hours home again... all on S02s gave me no problems at all. Maybe I had modified S02 tyres?
I think that too many driver aids can lul you into a fanse sense of security.
last winter I hit a hugh sheet of black ice while crossing a norrow bridge.
I had visions of the N/S clipping the bridge and spinning me round and into the otherside.
having many years of experiance I did what you would expect.
I panicked. stood in the brakes and shouted F*#K!!! alot. ( I actually think that helped!)
The ABS and ESP hent into overtime, lots of ABS type noise and when I opened my eyes again I was across the bridge and off up the road again.
Inthe same car I turned the ESP off on a large roundabout in the wet and gave if a bootfull.
I then had found that a SsangYong Rexton runs out of opposite lock rather quickly!
S2K is a fantastic car and I am supprised at this thread a bit
No one ever posts a thread asking if TVRs are a bit difficult in the damp?
last winter I hit a hugh sheet of black ice while crossing a norrow bridge.
I had visions of the N/S clipping the bridge and spinning me round and into the otherside.
having many years of experiance I did what you would expect.
I panicked. stood in the brakes and shouted F*#K!!! alot. ( I actually think that helped!)
The ABS and ESP hent into overtime, lots of ABS type noise and when I opened my eyes again I was across the bridge and off up the road again.
Inthe same car I turned the ESP off on a large roundabout in the wet and gave if a bootfull.
I then had found that a SsangYong Rexton runs out of opposite lock rather quickly!
S2K is a fantastic car and I am supprised at this thread a bit
No one ever posts a thread asking if TVRs are a bit difficult in the damp?
pikey said:
PS. I know someone (friend actually, so I should watch what I say ) who lost the rear end of his S2000 on a B-road corner and put it backwards through a fence.
The general feedback he got from s2ki was that the journey from London to Scotland in the wet was a long way and the S02 tyres he had soaked up the water. When he was later coming round that ill-fated corner, the tyres let go and he was through the fence.
Nothing about "bit too much right foot there mate", and "oh dear, well at least you're okay. How about some performance driving lessons for Christmas?" Nope! It was the tyres. Must have been the tyres they said
Personally, I found that driving 7 hours to Nurburgring, 30 laps round in the wet and 7 hours home again... all on S02s gave me no problems at all. Maybe I had modified S02 tyres?
) who lost the rear end of his S2000 on a B-road corner and put it backwards through a fence. The general feedback he got from s2ki was that the journey from London to Scotland in the wet was a long way and the S02 tyres he had soaked up the water. When he was later coming round that ill-fated corner, the tyres let go and he was through the fence.
Nothing about "bit too much right foot there mate", and "oh dear, well at least you're okay. How about some performance driving lessons for Christmas?" Nope! It was the tyres. Must have been the tyres they said
Personally, I found that driving 7 hours to Nurburgring, 30 laps round in the wet and 7 hours home again... all on S02s gave me no problems at all. Maybe I had modified S02 tyres?
Never saw that thread, and you're right that that's a daft answer, but the tyres ARE responsible for a lot of the spins people have because they take a fair while to warm up and said spins occur within about 10 minutes of setting off on cold rubber.
Did a 270 of my own the other day as a case in point - too much right foot (but whch was no more than usual), cold road, car only been running 1 minute so tyres hadn't warmed up.
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