RE: Honda Civic Type R
Discussion
In Japan the previous CTR and the Integra were sold at the same time with the same outputs at a similar cost. The CTR bombed in Japan, hence special editions for Europe with the JDM interiors (the 30th Anniversary Edition and Premier editions were ways of getting the JDM interiors wacked into cars they could sell).
Sadly the LSD, uprated engine and various other bits weren't signed off for EU use so lots of bits ended up with people like Ariel for the Atom (who got a Swindon supply of unused JDM engines and gearboxes).
Sadly the LSD, uprated engine and various other bits weren't signed off for EU use so lots of bits ended up with people like Ariel for the Atom (who got a Swindon supply of unused JDM engines and gearboxes).
mafioso said:
davy9449 said:
mafioso said:
It's pretty horrible! Looks to big and high up! The dash is too complicated and digital. All you want from a driver's car is a wheel, three pedals and a stick! Non of this SAT NAV crap!! AND, it's FWD!!!
Well, you would say that driving a KA!!! possibly the worst car I have ever driven in the rain - on a par with my old Mk11 Fiesta!
Haha I was waiting for someone to say that! Remember my Ka is my first car and I'm not spending 25k plus on a car!! I'd rather have a 1-Series with a proper drivetrain if I had that much money!!
I think you'll find the Civic is only around 18K my friend, and probably much better value than 1 of them ugly series 1s! RWD isn't the be all and end all like it used to be. LSD and much better chassis have made FWD cars much better to drive in modern times. Remember a RWD car is only as good as the driver who uses it as well. Another point is, the Honda Integra Type R was rated as one of the best drivers cars ever, not just the greatest FWD car!! Check EVO ed 98 I think. Unless you want to be on a track and get your car sideways all the time, RWD isn't always desirable all of the time. (Check my 'ex'-car profile)
Although I have to agree, given the chance, every car I ever own would be RWD purely for those moments of 'magic'! Edited by davy9449 on Saturday 3rd February 05:40
davy9449 said:
mafioso said:
davy9449 said:
mafioso said:
It's pretty horrible! Looks to big and high up! The dash is too complicated and digital. All you want from a driver's car is a wheel, three pedals and a stick! Non of this SAT NAV crap!! AND, it's FWD!!!
Well, you would say that driving a KA!!! possibly the worst car I have ever driven in the rain - on a par with my old Mk11 Fiesta!
Haha I was waiting for someone to say that! Remember my Ka is my first car and I'm not spending 25k plus on a car!! I'd rather have a 1-Series with a proper drivetrain if I had that much money!!
I think you'll find the Civic is only around 18K my friend, and probably much better value than 1 of them ugly series 1s! FWD isn't the be all and end all like it used to be. LSD and much better chassis have made cars much better to drive in modern times. Remember a RWD car is only as good as the driver who uses it as well. Another point is, the Honda Integra Type R was rated as one of the best drivers cars ever, not just the greatest FWD car!! Check EVO ed 98 I think. Unless you want to be on a track and get your car sideways all the time, RWD isn't always desirable all of the time. (Check my 'ex'-car profile)
Although I have to agree, given the chance, every car I ever own would be RWD purely for those moments of 'magic'!All these muppets who say 'I'd rather have a Golf GTI or a BMW 1 Series'! Yeah right spend tons more,have either a boring as heck lump of lard or a butt ugly repmobile. Silly sods!
IMHO Honda have just showed where their german counterparts excel and improve models the japs just change the clothing. For some reason the UK are worst off when it comes to Hondas, more powerful engines abroad in S2000 and CTR. This new car to me is built just to have Hondas share in the hot hatch market and not because they wanted to build a car better than the Golf GTI or Mini cooper s or any other hot hatch you care to mention. I worked for Honda and if it drives anything like the old car no thank you, i always had the sensation that the car was screaming but not going as fast as the noise made out and it was sh**e in even slightly moist weather and dont get me started about putting petrol in it if you do want to have some fun. The only plus side is the price i suppose, its a bit cheaper than the Golf and Mini but i really expected to see a 2.2 vtec with at least 235bhp but now that its the old engine with better gearing just puts me off, its more of the same with less of the warburtons delivery van.
KANEIT said:
All these muppets who say 'I'd rather have a Golf GTI or a BMW 1 Series'! Yeah right spend tons more,have either a boring as heck lump of lard or a butt ugly repmobile. Silly sods!
I would half agree with this - but the current Golf GTI is a very accomplished car indeed. There is an element of 'paying for the badge' but residuals are very good.
Overall, though, if you are in the market for a decent hot hatch, the pickings are very rich indeed, from £16k supermini to nearly £30k 'premium' models, as this month's CAR Group Test aptly illustrates.
toenheel said:
IMHO Honda have just showed where their german counterparts excel and improve models the japs just change the clothing.
Fantastic. Yet another gross stereotyping post on PH!
Wonder why I bother reading the threads somedays, too many people on here are blinkered and closed-minded about anything other than their P&J.
Toenheel...what Honda have done here is VERY similar to what VW did with the Mk3 and Mk4 Golf GTi after the superlative Mk1 and 2 (and indeed Porsche with the 986 to 987 move which was clearly just a facelift, little substance behind it except some more electronic control as the owners clearly couldn't manage without). So be very careful where you throw stones...
the last word said:
KANEIT said:
All these muppets who say 'I'd rather have a Golf GTI or a BMW 1 Series'! Yeah right spend tons more,have either a boring as heck lump of lard or a butt ugly repmobile. Silly sods!
I would half agree with this - but the current Golf GTI is a very accomplished car indeed. There is an element of 'paying for the badge' but residuals are very good.
Overall, though, if you are in the market for a decent hot hatch, the pickings are very rich indeed, from £16k supermini to nearly £30k 'premium' models, as this month's CAR Group Test aptly illustrates.
You need to be careful about the residuals argument for things like the Golf GTI. While the percentages look good, by the time you have factored in discounts on supposedly lesser models/marques (excluding the real dross) and looked at it again in real money terms, there isn't really much of a difference between many of the 'usual suspects'.
Edited by D1MAC on Friday 2nd February 12:48
havoc said:
I never said they didn't have capable and inventive engineers. I just said it was no longer LED by them. Honda was founded by someone who had petrol in his veins and oil under his fingernails, and since then that tradition had been upheld (metaphorically at least) for some time. Sadly recent events are shedding significant doubt on that.
I've no problem with the new design direction...since about 1999 (S2000), their design has been arguably the best from Japan (both previous and new Civics, current Accord, FR-V). But engineering seems to have suffered as a result (Jazz the last 'mainstream' car to have all-round double wishbone suspension - a long-time Honda feature; dumbing-down/taming of the 'Type-R' philosophy; ergonomics no longer the primary driver in the cabin (every Honda I've driven up to the EP3 had a very driver-focused and easy-to-use 'cockpit')
Which version of Jazz has double wishbone suspension?
What's wrong with struts and torsion beams anyway? The Clio 182/197 have the same set up, even the Boxster/Cayman have to make do with struts only all-round. So perhaps there's more to handling than just what the spec sheets say, regardless of the way the press and some alleged Type-R fans are prattling on. That paragon of handling finesse known as the Honda Concerto certainly had hardcore double wishbones all-round - talk about marketing-led engineering.
As for Honda's supposed loss of direction, witness the "full-fat" NSX-R (doesn't seem that long ago), and the upcoming JDM Civic Type-R which looks much more promising than the UK one. So Honda builds a watered down version to satisfy the UK market's fickle obsession with toys and image, in the same way they gave the Australians a fake DC5 Type-R; can you blame them for cashing in before the "loyal fans" migrate to the next flavour of the month, while they spend their valuable time on important projects like the FCX?
All this catastrophising about Honda seems to ignore the fact that it is still one of the few car companies with a long-term vision about transport and environmental issues - not very sexy or sporty but it may well help it to stay in business. And if it means indulgences such as the NSX, S2000 and Type-Rs have to take a temporary backseat then so be it.
As an existing CTR owner the new model dissappoints me greatly, the red H is suppose to be a symbol of a racing heritage, and yet honda have decided to dilute it driving experience with "gadgets". Its against everything the type-r stands for! Honda have lost the plot with this one, less was always more with the type r, strip out all bits you don't need was the way to go, I can't believe any existing type r owner asked for all this crap to be added... a voice activate dvd sat nav system!!! bollox... I don't know about widening its fan base, widening its city driving yuppie base maybe. I really like the old civic looks too... much better then this crappy looking picasso front end and sh*tty pug206 arse end! Its not good at all... I won't be buying the new model, but changing to a completly diffrent make all together...well done honda!
It's a Type S.
I have no idea why Honda say that they are loosing sales by having it so focussed.
Well if they are, don't throw the Type R away, make the Type S the model like the Ford's ST, and keep the Type R (like Fords RS) safe for the models that really deserve it.
Hey ho... won't be buying one and to me it just makes Honda look stupid.
Dave
I have no idea why Honda say that they are loosing sales by having it so focussed.
Well if they are, don't throw the Type R away, make the Type S the model like the Ford's ST, and keep the Type R (like Fords RS) safe for the models that really deserve it.
Hey ho... won't be buying one and to me it just makes Honda look stupid.
Dave
havoc said:
toenheel said:
IMHO Honda have just showed where their german counterparts excel and improve models the japs just change the clothing.
Fantastic. Yet another gross stereotyping post on PH!
Wonder why I bother reading the threads somedays, too many people on here are blinkered and closed-minded about anything other than their P&J.
Toenheel...what Honda have done here is VERY similar to what VW did with the Mk3 and Mk4 Golf GTi after the superlative Mk1 and 2 (and indeed Porsche with the 986 to 987 move which was clearly just a facelift, little substance behind it except some more electronic control as the owners clearly couldn't manage without). So be very careful where you throw stones...
You can compare the 986 and 987 Boxster but to be honest there wasnt much else Porsche could do to make the Boxster any better because if they did it would make the 911 look very over priced!! In todays standards 197bhp in a hot hatch is nothing special, the new shape civic was a very daring move for honda as the old car didnt stand out at all, so if Honda were capable of making the new Civic look very different why didnt they uprate the engine as well instead of using the old....porsche may of facelifted the 987 but they also tweaked the car in many areas and having a 987 in the household as well i can tell you they are chalk and cheese. I worked for Honda so its not a case of "because i drive a german car everything else is shi*e".I believe Honda are a fantastic brand and they have grown over the last few years to a point now where they are now fighting in the market with VW and other large brands. I just feel that Honda could of done a lot better with this type r and although other makes including german are slightly more exspensive IMO they are far better..limited slip diffs on the mini etc....more of a drivers car. Owning a Honda yourself is obviously going to make you protective of any criticism's towards the brand so whats the difference in me giving my own opinion????? i enjoy a bit banter on here buy my god it would be a bit boring if we all agreed on subjects...
toenheel said:
[Owning a Honda yourself is obviously going to make you protective of any criticism's towards the brand so whats the difference in me giving my own opinion?????
i enjoy a bit banter on here buy my god it would be a bit boring if we all agreed on subjects...
i enjoy a bit banter on here buy my god it would be a bit boring if we all agreed on subjects...
Second point - absolutely.
First point...sort of, but I'm growing disappointed in them recently. First abandoning double-wishbones on the Civic EP (Oh - cocked up re: Jazz. Don't know why I thought it had doub-w'bones), leaving the LSD off for the UK market Type-R, AND putting electric PAS on it, even for the Type R. Then this 'fake' Type-R (Pretty much everyone who knows Honda's history says it's a Type-S/VTi). And they've just announced that the next S2000 will be a 'toned down' roadster aimed at the MX5/MR2, rather than taking on the Z4/Boxster (not -S), and will use a variant K20 not a monster like the F20C.
All in all, they seem to be taking their eyes off the 'performance' market, which is very sad as they were the only Jap mfr to eschew 4wd and FI to get the requisite performance and handling in their cars. That they succeeded so well with the NSX, early Type-R's, and even the S2000 is a real achievement, but I fear they're throwing it all away.
Hope this doesn't turn out to be Honda-R's eulogy.
toenheel said:
In todays standards 197bhp in a hot hatch is nothing special
Thats because most manufacturers have taken away everything that made hot hatches special to start with!
It was about a good power to weight mainly through low weight, which was the key really... 150bhp will have been seen as nothing special when the Clio Williams came out and the Jordan was offering 165-170bhp and the 306 had 155-167bhp...
What really made those cars was keeping the weight sensible. Add 300kg and 60bhp to an Elise doesn't make it an Elise still.
Yep, going down the route of defining a hot hatch again. Todays hatches are powerfull, and their power to weight is still good, but thats one dimension of performance. All the effects more weight has, yet it's being totally ignored. It's like saying the new Elise IS 300kg heavier, but it's got 60bhp more so thats ok... it simply wouldn't be an "Elise" anymore!
I'd be more likely to say "In todays standards 1200kg or more in a hot hatch is nothing special!"
Dave
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