Wet Track days...love em or hate em?

[shorts!]

kirstin s said:

Hi guys, just want to get some feed back on wet track days. do you find them fun or just too dangerous? Which circuits do you least like in the wet?

I think wet track days are fun if you enjoy more power than grip (I drive a TVR, so I'm used to that)! They make me concentrate on driving rather than simply going fast and they feel less harsh on the tyres, brakes, transmission and all the fluids stay cooler for longer.
Both Oulton and Cadwell feel more intimidating in the wet but also more exhilarating. I now sort of wish for wet, or at least damp, days when I'm there.
Combe does have grip in the wet just not as much as when it's dry, Snetterton too feels fine in the wet.

Any track I'd do in the dry, I would do in the wet though streams and standing water I'm not a fan of.

Why do you ask? Are you planning on doing one soon? Don't be scared just expect to go a bit slower.

[refoman2]

wet days are great,i used to pray for the rain when i was karting and saloon car racing,sorts the men out from the boys and there was nothing better than pissing off huge spend turbo machines with a little 1.3 swift gti lol

always amazes me,even in karting,that people who dont know why they arent going quicker lap after lap,wet or dry,dont spent some time looking at other drivers around the parts of the track they cant get right.amazing what you can pick up rather than having the 'im the greatest driver' attitude!either that or take some instruction

and theres loads of grip at Combe in the wet or dry,you just have to know where to find it.biggest failure of drivers in the wet is using exactly the same line as in the dry!

[Quietlybonkers]

Mine's a TVR, so more suited to dry days. I drive it on the roads all year, but even yesterday a little too much power at 25 mph in second got the car stepping well out of line right and then left. I will only be doing dry days.

[Frimley111R]

Don't like! No speed, no hard braking, no interest. Its ok for about 20 mins but after that its just tip toeing around.

[braddo]

Somewhere like Bedford or Snetterton can still be fun, but other places with less run-off like Castle Combe, Goodwood and (presumably; I haven't been) Cadwell can make a wet day a nervous affair.

[Clark3y]

Anyone used racing 'wets', and realistically how much of a difference is there compared to a tyre like a Yoko AD08?

[upsidedownmark]

I think the 'depends on the track / available runoff' comments are bang on.. though I have a leaning towards tracks with plenty of the above in the dry too...

However, to put some numbers to the no speed, no braking etc - If I was to look at some in-car video from a (hypothetical) wet to dry trackday, I'd find the best wet lap was 8 seconds slower than my (1:58) dry lap, and my top speed was 6mph down from a (dry) 116mph (indicated). Subjectively braking is only slightly diminished, lateral G is way down, and the painted bits are more dangerous, and you have to be smooth on turn in and exit (That's all on plain old road tyres - S02's) If you're driving smoothly it's not really massively different from the dry.

Logically that's going to depend on the car a lot too - never driven a TVR, but I'd imagine that's pretty scary, though I've seen a chap in an Atom going very very fast in the wet. If you want to be 'violent' with the car, it's no good I agree - in my experience that's not fast in the dry or wet, and flat doesn't work in the wet. But hey, trackdays aren't necessarily about fast, each to their own.

I think the golf on the MLR video also demonstrates that sometimes, you don't want to 'catch' the spin, most of the spinners went inwards and were fine. Personally if I need more lock than I can get without taking a hand off the wheel, I let it spin (into) the corner. The only time I've come (uncomfortably) close to smacking something was when I broke that - I was on full lock when the back bit, I had no chance to re-correct and spun off outwards - a worse version of what the golf did. I was lucky there was nothing in the way... I don't know what conventional wisdom is on that one either - it's just something that seems to have worked out for me.

Edit to add:

refoman2 said:

biggest failure of drivers in the wet is using exactly the same line as in the dry!

Erm, yes. Guilty as charged. Will attempt to think next time!

Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 16th January 01:13

[bikerstu]

I like a wet day tbh takes some skill to drive fast on track in the wet - and i like learning!

[ClarkyboyS]

i really enjoy a proper wet trackday,

Knockhill is closest to me and admittedly the only place i have done a trackday,

i used to be fairly rough, aggressive with my inputs to the car, knowing that my car would easy handle it, however, that all changed in 2010 when i did a properly wet TD, so wet unfact the session was stopped for a while due to standing water, and for most of it i was out there in my little e30 318is on Kumho v700 meduims, with only a couple of other cars out, it was a lotus day so most people opted to stay in as they has roofless cars etc.

it was great really learning to push the car in the wet, actually got my PB at the time and ever since i have just gotten faster and faster in the dry through applying the same smooth inputs!

i think its good to do a really wet day once in a while to sharpen you up!

last year i did a TD at knockhill in the bike (ducati 748) it was really wet to start and got better and better as the day went on, being the 1st TD in a bike i was crapping myself to start, but soon came to realise that it was exactly the same as the car, and as it got dry towards the end of the day i was the quickest in the novice group (some of which didnt go out when it was raining) which shows you just how much you can learn about your car/bike and the way it handles in the wet :-)

[Quietlybonkers]

upsidedownmark said:

I think the 'depends on the track / available runoff' comments are bang on.. though I have a leaning towards tracks with plenty of the above in the dry too...


Logically that's going to depend on the car a lot too - never driven a TVR, but I'd imagine that's pretty scary, though I've seen a chap in an Atom going very very fast in the wet. If you want to be 'violent' with the car, it's no good I agree - in my experience that's not fast in the dry or wet, and flat doesn't work in the wet. But hey, trackdays aren't necessarily about fast, each to their own.

TVRs definitely benefit initially from plenty of run off in my experience, as when they spin they do it fast and thoroughly, so you have to be well enough tuned to your car to feel when it's coming. Took me (a novice) an entire dry airfield weekend and four 360-540 degree spins to get really in tune with mine and to be able to catch the spins before they happened. The cars are fairly light (Chimaera and Griffith are 1060kg), especially at the rear, and have a fair amount of bhp (Chim/Griff 240-320 out of the factory, other models 350 to 450), and while the chassis is quite good, it isn't a Lotus or Caterfield. Biggest problem is that they have a lot of torque, so get over-enthusiastic with the right foot and the 4, 4.5 or 5 litre V8 gives it a good wallop at quite low revs and, combined with the light rear end, you can be in trouble faster than you can react.

I might be tempted to try a damp track day (not a really wet on, as i have spun my Chimaera at 20 mph on standing water), but am probably going to be a last minute booker at this time of year so that I have a 24 hour weather forecast of a completely dry and sunny day before I press the 'Pay' button

[sleithykeithy]

I do enjoy a wet track, but unless you are at a circuit that has garages available it can be a bit of a pain keeping belongings dry!

Combe is rather slippy in the wet, as I found out! Great fun making progress though and you learn a lot about the cars handling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEYMFvLa8e4&lis...

[Quietlybonkers]

sleithykeithy said:

I do enjoy a wet track, but unless you are at a circuit that has garages available it can be a bit of a pain keeping belongings dry!

Combe is rather slippy in the wet, as I found out! Great fun making progress though and you learn a lot about the cars handling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEYMFvLa8e4&lis...

Nice video, clearly showing at the beginning the risks of going for it on cold tyres. You caught some amusing slides later on....well done.

[ClarkyboyS]

Forgot about this vid of me doing Knockhill in the wet on a reverse trackday,

see below, it was good fun in my mates 1800 integra!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixhgvmBTEJs

[Quietlybonkers]

Even in the dry, having nowhere to run off can be expensive....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaPomrnhzHk

[upsidedownmark]

Quietlybonkers said:

Nice video, clearly showing at the beginning the risks of going for it on cold tyres. You caught some amusing slides later on....well done.

When it's properly wet, you won't get temperature into the tyres anyway; there's too much water to cool them, and not enough grip to work the rubber and generate heat. With mine (on a drying track) there's a very clear switch-on point where it'll go from slippy-as to almost dry performance in the space of a lap or two. As it dries you get enough grip to work the tires, which get hot, softer, grip more, generate more heat, and so on in a virtuous cycle - it's quite startling how marked the change is.

ClarkyboyS said:

Forgot about this vid of me doing Knockhill in the wet(...)

That's the first vid I'd actually say looked like a decent example of how to drive fast in the wet

As for bike TD's, I've only done one (dry). After a few laps I got brain fade and braked where I do in the car. Stayed shiny side up just, but finished up a long way from the tarmac

[Quietlybonkers]

You are of course correct regarding when it is really wet.....on that vid it looked moist rather than drowned IIRC. I sat watching, saying to myself "take it easy for the first lap or two", but he was on it within the first half lap and on the grass a short time later.
I know the initial cavalry charge is irresistible, having been hanging around for what feels like half a life time waiting for the off, as always seems to happen at track days, but I tend to come back in after the sighting laps, wait ten minutes for the melee to have subsided, and then go out and enjoy a much clearer track.
My other thought was "does Castle Combe have ANY overtaking rules"? Most of those overtakes would not have happened at Cadwell Park if my last track day there is anything to go by - only allowed to overtake on the two straights and the long right hander before the drop down to Mansfield

[Andy Bell]

ClarkyboyS said:

Forgot about this vid of me doing Knockhill in the wet on a reverse trackday,

see below, it was good fun in my mates 1800 integra!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixhgvmBTEJs

I love the bit at 2:45 where you nearly lose it and after you both look at each other with a 'good effort on catching that and not wiping out'

[upsidedownmark]

I don't disagree with a single word there! I always mean to avoid the initial charge, and always mean to take it steady early on, but equally almost always fail to. Most of those vids scare me, I'm not used to the track looking like the M25, my experience is a lot more space, and more orderly behaviour.

Incidentally, wrt your earlier comment

Quietlybonkers said:

(...) and while the chassis is quite good, it isn't a Lotus or Caterfield.

I took a ride in a caterham roadsport (wet), I was blown away by how 'playful' it was, and what could be got away with in terms of consistent angles. Quite possibly he was just better driver, but it was very impressive (problem is I now want one!). Being mid engined mine tends to have immense grip, right until it doesn't. You can gather it up if you're quick, but you need to be a lot better than I to hold it in a slide. I'm a big fan of short shifting in the wet.

[y2blade]

I Love them, all the wobblers get off the track.

[Quietlybonkers]

upsidedownmark said:

I took a ride in a caterham roadsport (wet), I was blown away by how 'playful' it was, and what could be got away with in terms of consistent angles. Quite possibly he was just better driver, but it was very impressive (problem is I now want one!). Being mid engined mine tends to have immense grip, right until it doesn't. You can gather it up if you're quick, but you need to be a lot better than I to hold it in a slide. I'm a big fan of short shifting in the wet.

Me too......maybe one year, I will get a Caterham, but only if I do enough track days in the TVR and know its not just something I do occasionally. I got the TVR in May, with a real intention to do at least six track days before the end of September. What with family life, the weather, etc etc I did two. I did do lots of other things - TVR meets in Southend and london, runs around the Norfolk coast with a bunch of Ferrari and Lambo owners and mid Anglia with PHers - but until i do at least six track days in a season I cannot see myself actually getting such a track tool.

I still remember in the mid-90s being taken around Coram curve at Snetterton by an instructor in a standard 318 BMW. He had the car totally under control and we went around the entire curve balanced on the steering and throttle at around 40-50 mph with me looking where we were going......out of my side window. I realised then, and since, that I do not have that level of skill and probably never will.