Kerbs at The Ring
Discussion
doogalman said:
Most people that i instruct think they have to exploit the kerbs before they have got anywhere near the limits of the tarmac that is available to them.
the other thng that makes people use kerbs is going too quick when they have no idea where the track goes. Rein it in and learn the lines.
Firstly, let me say that I am a relative newbie (under 300 laps), and secondly I avoid the Ring in the wet, so I'm only thinking about blue sky days.the other thng that makes people use kerbs is going too quick when they have no idea where the track goes. Rein it in and learn the lines.
These are the kerbs that I take deliberately and routinely, they don't seem to upset the car (perhaps because I'm so slow). Are they really a problem in the dry, or is it that you think it's lazy and simply unnecessary?
ukkid35 said:
doogalman said:
Most people that i instruct think they have to exploit the kerbs before they have got anywhere near the limits of the tarmac that is available to them.
the other thng that makes people use kerbs is going too quick when they have no idea where the track goes. Rein it in and learn the lines.
These are the kerbs that I take deliberately and routinely, they don't seem to upset the car (perhaps because I'm so slow). Are they really a problem in the dry, or is it that you think it's lazy and simply unnecessary?the other thng that makes people use kerbs is going too quick when they have no idea where the track goes. Rein it in and learn the lines.
If you are using the maximum extent of the track (and then some), you aren't allowing a margin for error. That's the driver's choice. However, not leaning on or relying upon kerbs at an early stage allows an increased margin for error and probably increases the discipline and accuracy of the driver (taking a big chunk of apex kerb is often a symptom of the classic novice mistake of apexing too early).
I've never been to the 'ring so take this with a pinch of salt; but looking at the pictures I'd say that all three of those points should be pure power application zones and kerbs will reduce traction... after all, they don't put kerbs there to make the circuit faster.
Edited by BritishRacinGrin on Friday 14th November 05:41
Ah, but get into a car next to him and I guarantee he will tell you not too!
Quite simply we will not allow drivers to use the kerbs, its just not necessary.
Far more accidents are caused by using them than not doing so, as you correctly point out it unsettles the car, , loosing traction , which is the "only way forward".
Quite simply we will not allow drivers to use the kerbs, its just not necessary.
Far more accidents are caused by using them than not doing so, as you correctly point out it unsettles the car, , loosing traction , which is the "only way forward".
GrumpyTwig said:
I don't recognise the first one but the last two look like wipperman? (had to check a map) pretty sure that's the fastest way through there. Not using the kerbs makes it a lot more work.
That is the LHer at the top of Fuchsrohre; I use it as well, I think everyone does frankly.The "advice" given in the other thread seemed a bit binary to be honest. There are a few other kerbs I use routinely as well.
ukkid35 said:
Firstly, let me say that I am a relative newbie (under 300 laps), and secondly I avoid the Ring in the wet, so I'm only thinking about blue sky days.
These are the kerbs that I take deliberately and routinely, they don't seem to upset the car (perhaps because I'm so slow). Are they really a problem in the dry, or is it that you think it's lazy and simply unnecessary?
Hi PaulThese are the kerbs that I take deliberately and routinely, they don't seem to upset the car (perhaps because I'm so slow). Are they really a problem in the dry, or is it that you think it's lazy and simply unnecessary?
the three kerbs you show are generally used by the majority. However i would say kerb pic 1 at top of foxhole you are right over, personally i would not go that far left. Just for fun and TF then i don't see the point in useing all of your margin, a lot of people crash up there and you never know what is over the crest on the blind approach. Pic 2 at wipperman i tend to go in a little deeper so i hit a quite late apex on the left which reduces the effort to hit the right pic 2, both of which i just clip rather than go all the way over like you have in the pics. Bear in mind that most of my laps over the years have been on bikes so very rare that a kerb is used. But the consequence is that lines are my priority. Keep it safe and fun. When instructing my main goal is to impart experiance that keeps the pupil safe and smooth. Using kerbs with people that have not done their time only seems to make them scrappy, which reduces the safety margin.
BritishRacinGrin said:
Note the instructor doesn't say 'don't use the kerbs'. He is pointing out that people are using the kerbs prematurely (before they really know the lines) or uneccessarily (thinking that it's always quicker to hit the apex / exit kerbs when that isn't necessarily the case).
If you are using the maximum extent of the track (and then some), you aren't allowing a margin for error. That's the driver's choice. However, not leaning on or relying upon kerbs at an early stage allows an increased margin for error and probably increases the discipline and accuracy of the driver (taking a big chunk of apex kerb is often a symptom of the classic novice mistake of apexing too early).
I've never been to the 'ring so take this with a pinch of salt; but looking at the pictures I'd say that all three of those points should be pure power application zones and kerbs will reduce traction... after all, they don't put kerbs there to make the circuit faster.
Exactly my point. Thanks.
Things change when we instruct people that have good knowledge and want to fine tune what they already know, afterall there is little better things than repetion which we are fortunate to have as we are here 365 a year. Wheras some people may only drive it a few days a year.
If you are using the maximum extent of the track (and then some), you aren't allowing a margin for error. That's the driver's choice. However, not leaning on or relying upon kerbs at an early stage allows an increased margin for error and probably increases the discipline and accuracy of the driver (taking a big chunk of apex kerb is often a symptom of the classic novice mistake of apexing too early).
I've never been to the 'ring so take this with a pinch of salt; but looking at the pictures I'd say that all three of those points should be pure power application zones and kerbs will reduce traction... after all, they don't put kerbs there to make the circuit faster.
Exactly my point. Thanks.
Things change when we instruct people that have good knowledge and want to fine tune what they already know, afterall there is little better things than repetion which we are fortunate to have as we are here 365 a year. Wheras some people may only drive it a few days a year.
Edited by BritishRacinGrin on Friday 14th November 05:41
ukkid35 said:
Firstly, let me say that I am a relative newbie (under 300 laps), and secondly I avoid the Ring in the wet, so I'm only thinking about blue sky days.
These are the kerbs that I take deliberately and routinely, they don't seem to upset the car (perhaps because I'm so slow). Are they really a problem in the dry, or is it that you think it's lazy and simply unnecessary?
If I have a "new" passenger I usually take all three of those - it adds to the experience. These are the kerbs that I take deliberately and routinely, they don't seem to upset the car (perhaps because I'm so slow). Are they really a problem in the dry, or is it that you think it's lazy and simply unnecessary?
If it is just myself then I only ever use the last one.
First one is fine if you are not going too fast. If carrying a lot of speed though you will discover that it will unsettle the car and may prevent you from getting enough speed out of the car to make the next right. I once had a spin there in a GT3 and just kissed the barrier (bumper needed paint. No barrier damage but still phoned it in to the office and had them inspect as you always should) as a result of using that kerb and don't go near it in the Porsche since (though I do use it in low powered stuff like rental Suzukis and such like). There was no charge when I kissed the barrier in that incident, but there were 4 other colours of paint on the armco there and all within less than about 6 feet of barrier - common accident that always ends in the same place. So you can use it now, but it is a bad habit if you ever get faster unless you are on a TD running slicks.
Second one you can use if you like but IMHO it neither gains or loses time so why give your car the extra stress?
Third one - can be hard on the suspension but you can use loads there (just keep the left hand wheels on the tarmac) and it does let you carry a fair chunk more speed (though with a braking zone after it that doesn't make you much in terms of time).
In general though - kerbs are a bad habit, and a responsible instructor is usually going to tell you to avoid them at the 'ring. The benefit of using them is usually marginal at best and they appreciably increase the risk of either an accident or simply breaking the car.
Second one you can use if you like but IMHO it neither gains or loses time so why give your car the extra stress?
Third one - can be hard on the suspension but you can use loads there (just keep the left hand wheels on the tarmac) and it does let you carry a fair chunk more speed (though with a braking zone after it that doesn't make you much in terms of time).
In general though - kerbs are a bad habit, and a responsible instructor is usually going to tell you to avoid them at the 'ring. The benefit of using them is usually marginal at best and they appreciably increase the risk of either an accident or simply breaking the car.
Edited by DiscoColin on Friday 14th November 13:06
As a fair newbie too (about 50 laps) I also try and use all three of these kerbs although often find in the 2 right next to each other, it tends to be more natural to miss the first one and take the 2nd full. This could be down to lack of experience and therefore a different line on approach which puts me off using the 1st kerb in the sequence.
The one coming out of foxhole isn't too bad either - kerb #1 above.
The one coming out of foxhole isn't too bad either - kerb #1 above.
[start nanny mode]
Several UK tracks have started enforcing "track limits" on track days this year, due to excessive use of, and particularly going right over, kerbs.
Their stated reasons are:
1. You don't need to go right over the kerbs - just using them should be enough.
2. Most drivers don't have the skill to handle the results of a thoroughly unsettled car at high speed, which leads to more accidents
3. There is plenty of black stuff
4. The dirt you pull onto the track by going right over the kerbs can cause someone else's accident, damage and possible injury
It's noticeable that even F1 is starting to enforce track limits on overtaking and in qualifying.
At the end of the day, you want you and your car to have fun and return safely.
[/end nanny mode]
Do they have a point?
Several UK tracks have started enforcing "track limits" on track days this year, due to excessive use of, and particularly going right over, kerbs.
Their stated reasons are:
1. You don't need to go right over the kerbs - just using them should be enough.
2. Most drivers don't have the skill to handle the results of a thoroughly unsettled car at high speed, which leads to more accidents
3. There is plenty of black stuff
4. The dirt you pull onto the track by going right over the kerbs can cause someone else's accident, damage and possible injury
It's noticeable that even F1 is starting to enforce track limits on overtaking and in qualifying.
At the end of the day, you want you and your car to have fun and return safely.
[/end nanny mode]
Do they have a point?
doogalman said:
BritishRacinGrin said:
Note the instructor doesn't say 'don't use the kerbs'. He is pointing out that people are using the kerbs prematurely (before they really know the lines) or uneccessarily (thinking that it's always quicker to hit the apex / exit kerbs when that isn't necessarily the case).
If you are using the maximum extent of the track (and then some), you aren't allowing a margin for error. That's the driver's choice. However, not leaning on or relying upon kerbs at an early stage allows an increased margin for error and probably increases the discipline and accuracy of the driver (taking a big chunk of apex kerb is often a symptom of the classic novice mistake of apexing too early).
I've never been to the 'ring so take this with a pinch of salt; but looking at the pictures I'd say that all three of those points should be pure power application zones and kerbs will reduce traction... after all, they don't put kerbs there to make the circuit faster.
Exactly my point. Thanks.If you are using the maximum extent of the track (and then some), you aren't allowing a margin for error. That's the driver's choice. However, not leaning on or relying upon kerbs at an early stage allows an increased margin for error and probably increases the discipline and accuracy of the driver (taking a big chunk of apex kerb is often a symptom of the classic novice mistake of apexing too early).
I've never been to the 'ring so take this with a pinch of salt; but looking at the pictures I'd say that all three of those points should be pure power application zones and kerbs will reduce traction... after all, they don't put kerbs there to make the circuit faster.
Things change when we instruct people that have good knowledge and want to fine tune what they already know, afterall there is little better things than repetion which we are fortunate to have as we are here 365 a year. Wheras some people may only drive it a few days a year.
If you don't know that circuit intimately then I believe that setting out to avoid the kerbs encourages better discipline and while it may not be the fastest way around the track at the very beginning, the precision which is required to not rely on the kerbs is conductive to a smoother, faster driving style and fewer hair-raising moments (after all, the fastest way to learn where to use the kerbs and where not to is probably to put the car backwards into some ARMCO). Fewer hair-raising moments also means greater confidence, and greater confidence means a more relaxed attitude, all of which is good stuff. The kerb habit is also a difficult one to break when it rains, if you have been driving point-to-point aiming for the apex and exit kerbs, looking for the grip around the grey stuff requires a complete change of approach.
Circuit operators are trying to enforce track limits more these days, but really if you're troubling those limits every lap then you're almost certainly costing yourself time... You just aren't allowed four tyres over the white line which I think is fair enough.
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