An 'auto' for track and town - Am I dreaming?
Discussion
BrotherMouzone said:
CLK55 coupe.
But you have obviously made up your mind about getting the E46 M3 already, you just wanted validation from internet strangers
FWIW I test drove an auto GT86 when it first came out; nice enough drive but manual would be my first choice. Also forget about carrying passengers as the rear legroom is pitiful.
At >1700kg, the CLK55 would be miserable on track. Also, that 5spd slushbox is clumsy enough when you're trying to make progress on the road. Think I'll pass on that one.But you have obviously made up your mind about getting the E46 M3 already, you just wanted validation from internet strangers
FWIW I test drove an auto GT86 when it first came out; nice enough drive but manual would be my first choice. Also forget about carrying passengers as the rear legroom is pitiful.
Slightly favouring the Scirocco at the moment, although I need to try one with the remapped DSG. I also got distracted by how much mk2 TT you can get for the dosh. Is the 4WD system on these any better than the original?
xjay1337 said:
It's basically the same Haldex system.
Well, that's ruled that one out. Am I right in assuming that they are built on the same platform as the Golf/Scirocco, and thus the FWD 2.0 TFSI versions are effectively the same car as the mk5 Golf GTi? Coming in at 1280kg they are a lot lighter than I'd expected.TroubledSoul said:
I'd probably be looking at a Golf R or trying to scrape into an M135i with your criteria. The SMG E46 M3 isn't great in stop/start traffic I understand...
Budget is fixed, and neither of those come in under £12k with reasonable miles. Plus, the facelifted 1-series is absolutely hideous from the front.I had heard about the SMG not liking to 'creep' in traffic, and that it could contribute to significant clutch wear (which is fairly logical). Have you had any experience?
Unfortunately not. I've come close a couple of times to going for an E46 M3 but the only one I test drove had about 200k on the clock and was manual 
I think the auto thing is the major difficulty purely because the modern performance stuff with a ZF8 or DSG will cost more than your budget with low miles.
I know nothing about these either, but are the RX8s with paddles any good? Much cheaper than your budget but you have to keep a rebuild fund set aside
I think the auto thing is the major difficulty purely because the modern performance stuff with a ZF8 or DSG will cost more than your budget with low miles.
I know nothing about these either, but are the RX8s with paddles any good? Much cheaper than your budget but you have to keep a rebuild fund set aside
TroubledSoul said:
Unfortunately not. I've come close a couple of times to going for an E46 M3 but the only one I test drove had about 200k on the clock and was manual
I think the auto thing is the major difficulty purely because the modern performance stuff with a ZF8 or DSG will cost more than your budget with low miles.
I know nothing about these either, but are the RX8s with paddles any good? Much cheaper than your budget but you have to keep a rebuild fund set aside
RX8 is a useless 4spd slushbox, so definitely out of the conversation.I think the auto thing is the major difficulty purely because the modern performance stuff with a ZF8 or DSG will cost more than your budget with low miles.
I know nothing about these either, but are the RX8s with paddles any good? Much cheaper than your budget but you have to keep a rebuild fund set aside
I think a DSG might well end up being the solution here, unless I can get a drive in an updated SMG car (to help me understand the limitations).
C70R said:
xjay1337 said:
It's basically the same Haldex system.
Well, that's ruled that one out. Am I right in assuming that they are built on the same platform as the Golf/Scirocco, and thus the FWD 2.0 TFSI versions are effectively the same car as the mk5 Golf GTi? Coming in at 1280kg they are a lot lighter than I'd expected.I think Scirocco is around 1350kg.
Welcome to try mine out :-) Although it is a manwell.
xjay1337 said:
C70R said:
xjay1337 said:
It's basically the same Haldex system.
Well, that's ruled that one out. Am I right in assuming that they are built on the same platform as the Golf/Scirocco, and thus the FWD 2.0 TFSI versions are effectively the same car as the mk5 Golf GTi? Coming in at 1280kg they are a lot lighter than I'd expected.I think Scirocco is around 1350kg.
Welcome to try mine out :-) Although it is a manwell.
I might have to get out and give one a try...
C70R said:
Hmm. The TT is winning me over, albeit with some (slight) reservations about image. The same weight as a GT86, the potential for an easy ~200bhp/tonne, the best choice of autobox, plenty of modcons.
I might have to get out and give one a try...
I might have to get out and give one a try...
try one. ok as transportation.
CABC said:
C70R said:
Hmm. The TT is winning me over, albeit with some (slight) reservations about image. The same weight as a GT86, the potential for an easy ~200bhp/tonne, the best choice of autobox, plenty of modcons.
I might have to get out and give one a try...
I might have to get out and give one a try...
try one. ok as transportation.
C70R said:
It's basically a lighter mk5 Golf GTi. What's not to like...? Or am I missing something?
usual vag traits of front heavy, dull steering and uncommunicative chassis.I had a TSi for a whole w/end in the spirit of openness, but no, it was as dead as other vag stuff I've driven (but not the mk5 Gti).
ok for smooth, swift w/end away on public roads.
When it suits I'm all for being contrarian, but in this case I'll use the public knows best argument: how many TTs do you see on track? 12k can get better. Other flaws in other cars could be characterful, but not numb and front heavy.
^^ This. Somewhat bemused that you're convinced you need 200bhp/tonne and lots of torque to have fun, but are quite happy to go for a nose heavy, front wheel drive / effectively front wheel drive contraption. I guess if acceleration is your thing there might be some mileage in that, but the track requirement would suggest some involvement / feedback would be a priority..
FWIW after several years of trying to compromise practicality and fun, I've given up and got a really silly car and a really dull one. Couldn't be happier with the decision
FWIW after several years of trying to compromise practicality and fun, I've given up and got a really silly car and a really dull one. Couldn't be happier with the decision
CABC said:
usual vag traits of front heavy, dull steering and uncommunicative chassis.
I had a TSi for a whole w/end in the spirit of openness, but no, it was as dead as other vag stuff I've driven (but not the mk5 Gti).
ok for smooth, swift w/end away on public roads.
When it suits I'm all for being contrarian, but in this case I'll use the public knows best argument: how many TTs do you see on track? 12k can get better. Other flaws in other cars could be characterful, but not numb and front heavy.
TT weight distribution appears to be ~60/40, compared with the GT86's 53/47. Hardly as tragic as you'd think.I had a TSi for a whole w/end in the spirit of openness, but no, it was as dead as other vag stuff I've driven (but not the mk5 Gti).
ok for smooth, swift w/end away on public roads.
When it suits I'm all for being contrarian, but in this case I'll use the public knows best argument: how many TTs do you see on track? 12k can get better. Other flaws in other cars could be characterful, but not numb and front heavy.
upsidedownmark said:
^^ This. Somewhat bemused that you're convinced you need 200bhp/tonne and lots of torque to have fun, but are quite happy to go for a nose heavy, front wheel drive / effectively front wheel drive contraption. I guess if acceleration is your thing there might be some mileage in that, but the track requirement would suggest some involvement / feedback would be a priority..
FWIW after several years of trying to compromise practicality and fun, I've given up and got a really silly car and a really dull one. Couldn't be happier with the decision
I have two cars at the moment (three, in fact, but that's another story), but I'm moving to a very central bit of London shortly. Thus, one car is the only possible solution - hence this thread.FWIW after several years of trying to compromise practicality and fun, I've given up and got a really silly car and a really dull one. Couldn't be happier with the decision
As for the need for something with a bit of 'oomph', my current track car is light, short-geared and ~140bhp/tonne, and getting passed by the world and their aunt on long straights is quite dull, particularly as I'd like to tackle Spa and the Ring. Can we agree that we're all different, and we have our own preferences for what constitutes 'fun'?
Overall, I take both of your negative points, but neither of you have suggested anything better to do all of this:
C70R said:
For ~£12k this car needs to:
Feel free to throw some ideas into the ring...- Sit in busy London traffic (hence the need for an auto)
- Carry two people, plus two small pet carriers and weekend bags (probably means two-seaters/convertibles are out)
- Sit in relative comfort at 80-85mph on the motorway
- Be fun to drive on track, while not chasing laptimes (4-5 times a year)
- Have a few creature comforts (decent stereo, aircon etc.)
weight distribution is more complex than simple F/R, where the weight is affects track driving a lot. that's why vag do so badly on track - more than just at the front but way out in front. At this point you need to drive them.
I always wanted to like the 350/370Z, but they just feel so heavy. the stats don't always tell the story.
maybe an 86 then? I haven't driven an auto but apparently the change is crisp. at track revs the torque dip is not in play. the wide gears will be a drawback but you have to compromise somewhere. personal choice, I choose nimble, adjustable and playful.
faster cars can go by on the straights (and then usually bumble around the corners).
the Ring is a different track completely. M3s, Pork and other high powered stuff fit in nicely. agile stuff struggles for longer.
Completely different to most UK tracks. if I went back to the Ring I'd take my light car for the morning and then rent something faster for the afternoon (track rental is by lap).
I always wanted to like the 350/370Z, but they just feel so heavy. the stats don't always tell the story.
maybe an 86 then? I haven't driven an auto but apparently the change is crisp. at track revs the torque dip is not in play. the wide gears will be a drawback but you have to compromise somewhere. personal choice, I choose nimble, adjustable and playful.
faster cars can go by on the straights (and then usually bumble around the corners).
the Ring is a different track completely. M3s, Pork and other high powered stuff fit in nicely. agile stuff struggles for longer.
Completely different to most UK tracks. if I went back to the Ring I'd take my light car for the morning and then rent something faster for the afternoon (track rental is by lap).
C70R said:
CABC said:
usual vag traits of front heavy, dull steering and uncommunicative chassis.
I had a TSi for a whole w/end in the spirit of openness, but no, it was as dead as other vag stuff I've driven (but not the mk5 Gti).
ok for smooth, swift w/end away on public roads.
When it suits I'm all for being contrarian, but in this case I'll use the public knows best argument: how many TTs do you see on track? 12k can get better. Other flaws in other cars could be characterful, but not numb and front heavy.
TT weight distribution appears to be ~60/40, compared with the GT86's 53/47. Hardly as tragic as you'd think.I had a TSi for a whole w/end in the spirit of openness, but no, it was as dead as other vag stuff I've driven (but not the mk5 Gti).
ok for smooth, swift w/end away on public roads.
When it suits I'm all for being contrarian, but in this case I'll use the public knows best argument: how many TTs do you see on track? 12k can get better. Other flaws in other cars could be characterful, but not numb and front heavy.
Consumables on some of the fast Audis can add track day cost too (brakes mainly).
ETA: The 86 comes with a LSD as standard which is useful for track driving.
Edited by Flibble on Tuesday 9th January 11:50
I appreciate the input and don't wish to sound like a broken record here, but I'm keen not to dismiss the VAG stuff out of hand, particularly when its detractors actually haven't driven one on track (or the GT86 auto).
These lot seem to agree that the Scirocco is not a bad steer: http://www.rsrnurburg.com/car-rentals/volkswagen-s...
These lot seem to agree that the Scirocco is not a bad steer: http://www.rsrnurburg.com/car-rentals/volkswagen-s...
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