First 'Ring visit

[e30m3Mark]

Digga said:

'd agree about mid week. I'm about 50:50 whether, as a first timer, it'd be easier on a quiet TF or a busier but more 'organised' track day. I'm not sure. With TF, even if it's quiet, you kind of need to be vigilant for the random - both fast and slow - and a greater variety of vehicle types.

In either instance, the big thing to check/ensure is your insurance cover. You do not really want to drive here without it IMHO. Most UK car policies will not cover the 'Ring.

Just got off the phone to my insurers (Competition Car Insurance - underwritten by Footman James) and initially they said I was covered for public days where the road is operating as a toll road, but couldn't have regular track day cover. Good news! Fast forward 5 minutes and I get a 2nd call telling me they wouldn't cover either (TF or organised track day) and that I should call Ryan Motorsport Insurance for a quote instead. I did exactly that and a days cover for my E30 is just over £700! SEVEN HUNDRED POUNDS!

There's just no way I want to pay £700 to drive the 'Ring in my M3 but it's a huge risk driving without cover obviously. Has anyone got any other suggestions and/or advice re insurance.

[The1Driver]

It's a tough one... If safety really (and I mean really really) concerns you then go for trackday session and not TF. However, of the only sessions available during your stay are TF. Then just hire a car for a lap or two.... And should you feel more comfortable after. Take your car out.

Edited by The1Driver on Thursday 8th February 18:05

[Pdelamare]

e30m3Mark said:

Just got off the phone to my insurers (Competition Car Insurance - underwritten by Footman James) and initially they said I was covered for public days where the road is operating as a toll road, but couldn't have regular track day cover. Good news! Fast forward 5 minutes and I get a 2nd call telling me they wouldn't cover either (TF or organised track day) and that I should call Ryan Motorsport Insurance for a quote instead. I did exactly that and a days cover for my E30 is just over £700! SEVEN HUNDRED POUNDS!

There's just no way I want to pay £700 to drive the 'Ring in my M3 but it's a huge risk driving without cover obviously. Has anyone got any other suggestions and/or advice re insurance.

And that’s just your own car, not 3rd party. You won’t get 3rd party cover for TF.

[Olivera]

Pdelamare said:

You won’t get 3rd party cover for TF.

Under EU law third party cover can't be excluded, even if the terms and conditions of the policy are breached. HTH.

Edit:

"The ombudsman said that UK and European law requires insurers to provide a minimum of 3rd party only cover even if their policyholders are using the insured vehicle in a manner which invalidates their own-damage cover. There is no restriction on the right to exclude certain matters affecting the policyholder's own property and person. Such matters are governed by the contract of insurance entered into by both parties. Hence, the insurer can indemnify the third party (to comply with the law) without having to indemnify the driver for his own losses if they arise from an excluded event or situation."

Edited by Olivera on Thursday 8th February 18:26

[InitialDave]

Olivera said:

Under EU law third party cover can't be excluded, even if the terms and conditions of the policy are breached. HTH.

My understanding was the insurer can't avoid paying out to a third party, but can come after you for the cost afterwards?

[Olivera]

InitialDave said:

My understanding was the insurer can't avoid paying out to a third party, but can come after you for the cost afterwards?

Possibly, but I've asked many times on similar threads if this has actually occured in practice - no one has ever provided any evidence that it has.

Agtlaw who is the professional on this subject has indicated on several threads that it probably can't happen, nor is he aware of it occuring at all in recent years.

[Pdelamare]

Olivera, every policy states that the insurer will persue the policy holder for any losses incurred on roads that they exclude in the T&Cs. So whilst they will pay out, they’ll chase you to recover it all. It’s effectively not being insured.

Atglaw won’t clarify anything on this when pushed for details.

Edited by Pdelamare on Thursday 8th February 18:51

[Steve91]

I decided to rent last year, and rented the Polo from Apex (rest in peace!) and it was good fun. I've done TFs as a passenger before and they haven't been too bad, but when the weather is nicer, as has been said, it will get busy, and when it gets busy, there will be crashes!

[Cheapstraitsix]

Il be heading out at some point this year in the compact also.

When you’ve got some time give this a watch.
Explains the costs etc. If the worst should happen.

https://youtu.be/lXDMpuwHmS0

[Digga]

The issue with TF, as is clear to see, is not only your own insurance, but also that of those around you. If someone causes you to crash but has no cover for their liabilities, they might well be in serious trouble with German authorities, but you will potentially be out of pocket.

[e30m3Mark]

Thanks for all the replies so far guys and the offers of tagging along etc. It's much appreciated.

Right now I am thinking of a rental for the first few laps and a lap or 2 in the E30 the next day. (so long as it's dry as I want to keep risk to a minimum)

I do find it odd that Competition Car Insurance said I had cover so long as the road was open to the public (as a toll road) and changed their mind 5 minutes later. When I took the policy out 5 years ago, they said I was covered for 6 track-days including 1 at the 'Ring. That has obviously changed now.

[Pdelamare]

e30m3Mark said:

I do find it odd that Competition Car Insurance said I had cover so long as the road was open to the public (as a toll road) and changed their mind 5 minutes later. When I took the policy out 5 years ago, they said I was covered for 6 track-days including 1 at the 'Ring. That has obviously changed now.

Nurburging GP is covered by them. Nordschleife not so. I'm insured with CCI myself for my track day car and I've been over this in minute detail with them.

[Digga]

FWIW, my cars have been insured by Mannings. They are covered for UK track days organised by approved (ATDO etc.) firms, but are not covered at all for the Nurburgring, whatsoever. They will, however, organise ad hoc day cover for approved track days at the 'Ring.

[gtsralph]

Digga said:

FWIW, my cars have been insured by Mannings. They are covered for UK track days organised by approved (ATDO etc.) firms, but are not covered at all for the Nurburgring, whatsoever. They will, however, organise ad hoc day cover for approved track days at the 'Ring.

Yes, Mannings cover ATDO run European circuit track days for extra £250 per day or £500 if car value is over £100k, uniquely they will cover Nordschliefe on the same basis as other European tracks.

[chandler99]

Is this not all a little worst case scenario? I've been to a few TF's now and never felt like the level of risk was too high. Drive like a country road that you don't know, don't think you're a driving god and your car can go a million mph, keep to the right, and chat to people and if poss get a few passenger laps. Most importantly, enjoy it - its a rare and fantastic place that will have you going back time and time again.


(**Please don't flame me guys - peace and love. lol)

[Digga]

Biggest risk is the third party liability stuff - it's almost open-ended. Sure you can look out for other drivers and drive responsibly yourself, but there's always the potential for a freak accident, due to bad luck, which then causes other's to crash and that's really where the risk is. The cost of damage to your own car and armco pales into insignificance at that point.

[Andy S15]

Quite a lot of scaremongering in here. Yes, you need to be aware of the risks. But if you're sensible, the risk is still quite low, especially with your extensive track experience you already have. Weekend use isn't too bad if you're an early bird and get there when the gates open. You'll have an hour or so of quiet time to get used to things.

There's nothing wrong with staying to the right and letting everyone past you for a few laps while you get a feel for it. Move over and take the racing line now and then when the track is clear around you. Drive at 7/10ths when you're comfortable so you've always got a margin for error - never go 10/10ths on a TF day. Keep an eye on your mirrors always, fast stuff can close in on you quickly. Drive defensively as you would on the road - treat every other car as an obstacle you need to avoid as you would a part of the track. Play plenty of laps on games to at least learn the corner order, direction and rough idea of speeds. Watch plenty of videos on Youtube to pick up tips - this can't prepare you for the elevation changes mind. Maintain your car. Maintain your car! This is about the most important thing, if you have some sort of mechanical issue which causes an accident, and the authorities can trace back to you (ie, you've modified something away from OEM which has failed) you can be stiffed to the full extent of the German law.

The experience of doing it in your own car is something you can't pass up. You just need to prepare yourself and know the risks and do what you can to prepare for them. It's an amazing feeling doing your first lap, and I think that should always be in your own car, it's just not the same otherwise.

[kiethton]

I got a fairly competitive quote from Morris when I was looking up the DN days last month (<£30k car value), was coming to ~£150 a day with a 10% car value excess.

[Digga]

Andy S15 said:

Quite a lot of scaremongering in here...

.... if you have some sort of mechanical issue which causes an accident, and the authorities can trace back to you (ie, you've modified something away from OEM which has failed) you can be stiffed to the full extent of the German law.

I'm just putting my scaremongering up front, rather than hiding it in the 'smallprint'

I'd agree though, that driving your own car at the Ring is a great experience.

[Wh00sher]

Andy S15 said:

Quite a lot of scaremongering in here. Yes, you need to be aware of the risks. But if you're sensible, the risk is still quite low, especially with your extensive track experience you already have. Weekend use isn't too bad if you're an early bird and get there when the gates open. You'll have an hour or so of quiet time to get used to things.

There's nothing wrong with staying to the right and letting everyone past you for a few laps while you get a feel for it. Move over and take the racing line now and then when the track is clear around you. Drive at 7/10ths when you're comfortable so you've always got a margin for error - never go 10/10ths on a TF day. Keep an eye on your mirrors always, fast stuff can close in on you quickly. Drive defensively as you would on the road - treat every other car as an obstacle you need to avoid as you would a part of the track. Play plenty of laps on games to at least learn the corner order, direction and rough idea of speeds. Watch plenty of videos on Youtube to pick up tips - this can't prepare you for the elevation changes mind. Maintain your car. Maintain your car! This is about the most important thing, if you have some sort of mechanical issue which causes an accident, and the authorities can trace back to you (ie, you've modified something away from OEM which has failed) you can be stiffed to the full extent of the German law.

The experience of doing it in your own car is something you can't pass up. You just need to prepare yourself and know the risks and do what you can to prepare for them. It's an amazing feeling doing your first lap, and I think that should always be in your own car, it's just not the same otherwise.

Very valid points and I agree with you..

The thing that stopped me doing TF after almost 2,000 laps was simply the 3rd party liability and possible risk IF the worst happened. Not due to my driving but a sudden mechanical failure. Trackdays are brilliant, I do loads as you probably know but TF is a bit special !.

I maintain my car to a good standard and have never dropped oil on a circuit in 12 years of track driving, but just google Mclaren 650s foxhole crash to see what can happen or read it here https://www.bridgetogantry.com/mclaren-oil-spill-c...

The McLaren wasn`t exactly an old banger but it dropped fluid and caused a 10-car pileup through no fault of the driver who could have been driving defensively, watching his mirrors and keeping to the right, but if you happen to be unlucky enough to drop coolant or oil in the foxhole because a stone punctured your radiator or a hose popped split, that is the kind of thing that could happen.

If your insurance policy excludes it, even if you quote European law, do you really want to have all the hassle that goes with it if they had to pay out for something like that incident and claimed it back off you ? I certainly don`t.