First track day car suggestions
Discussion
usn90 said:
Thanks for the suggestions.
Ive decided I will be buying a non track prepped car, reason being I want to make this my own project, I was reading the thread the rx8 guys created which in turn inspired me to start from scratch.
Shortlist
FWD -ep3/172/182
Rwd - mr2/ mx5/ or bmw
now reason I backtracked on the mx5 is because the recommendations the car gets, and I see somebody just mentioned a k20’ d mx5, I forgot all about that being quite a common engine swap and in a way morphs my fondness of the type R’s into a well handling car
MX5's are great, I run a mk3, with Cup 2's and carbotech pads, it is just a great little car, remember trackdays are not racing so it's not all about power. Running costs on an MX5 are very reasonable too. Ive decided I will be buying a non track prepped car, reason being I want to make this my own project, I was reading the thread the rx8 guys created which in turn inspired me to start from scratch.
Shortlist
FWD -ep3/172/182
Rwd - mr2/ mx5/ or bmw
now reason I backtracked on the mx5 is because the recommendations the car gets, and I see somebody just mentioned a k20’ d mx5, I forgot all about that being quite a common engine swap and in a way morphs my fondness of the type R’s into a well handling car
LordHaveMurci said:
No. 1. It's hideous.
2. It's automatic
usn90 said:
Thanks for the suggestions.
Ive decided I will be buying a non track prepped car, reason being I want to make this my own project, I was reading the thread the rx8 guys created which in turn inspired me to start from scratch.
Shortlist
FWD -ep3/172/182
Rwd - mr2/ mx5/ or bmw
now reason I backtracked on the mx5 is because the recommendations the car gets, and I see somebody just mentioned a k20’ d mx5, I forgot all about that being quite a common engine swap and in a way morphs my fondness of the type R’s into a well handling car
Was that the RX8 article on Car Throttle? If not, have a watch of their rotary car series. Really interesting and at the end of It, they had a really impressive track day car. I reckon an RX-8 would be a great track car, being a) RWD, b) fairly uncommon, unlike the ubiquitous E36 BMWs and c) something you can pick up fairly cheap. There's an RX-8 for sale near me which had an engine rebuild less than 2,000 miles ago and is under warranty. Chap wants only £2,500 for it, which seems really cheap for what you get.Ive decided I will be buying a non track prepped car, reason being I want to make this my own project, I was reading the thread the rx8 guys created which in turn inspired me to start from scratch.
Shortlist
FWD -ep3/172/182
Rwd - mr2/ mx5/ or bmw
now reason I backtracked on the mx5 is because the recommendations the car gets, and I see somebody just mentioned a k20’ d mx5, I forgot all about that being quite a common engine swap and in a way morphs my fondness of the type R’s into a well handling car
SparrowHawk said:
Hi usn90
I don't usually post, but I love trackdays and remember having these exact questions myself a few years ago, so I'd love to help if I can. First off - good decision on getting yourself a track car, you won't regret it. I've done dozens of trackdays over the years and have never had a bad experience yet - only hours of fun! Based on what you've said my personal opinions would be the following:
- Straight line speed isn't a huge factor for most people on trackdays -
Don't be afraid to go for a car "lacking in power". A great starting point would be one of the above mentioned cars MX5, Civic, Fiesta ST. I have owned and done trackdays in all of these and have loved each one of them. I've also done trackdays in more powerful turbocharged cars like Evos and Imprezas and I can honestly say that the fun does not go up with the power figures. Also bear in mind that in a lower powered car, mistakes usually have less severe consequences.
- The Ferrari probably isn't going to suit you for general trackday driving -
It is a precious car, and although other drivers are very unlikely to cause you any problems, a trip into the gravel trap or tyre wall might cause serious heartache. On top of that you have the upkeep costs; on a car like that you will be looking at considerably higher costs that you just won't get on the smaller cheaper cars mentioned in the posts above. It's not just the tyres and brakes, you can also run into a plethora of other issues brought on by over-exuberant track use such as overheating, or gearbox damage etc. which will be substantially more expensive in your Ferrari. If you're looking to get out on track in the Ferrari then perhaps some kind of 'members meeting' or owners club event would be better suited to you than a general trackday? You'd be around like minded folk in similar cars who will probably take it easier and also be on hand to help should anything go wrong. However, that is only my opinion - some people do general trackdays in their £200k Porsches!
- Buy a cheap hot hatch -
This is of course entirely subjective and down to personal preference, but my view is buy a Clio 182, Civic EP3, or Fiesta ST. My reasoning is that these cars very rarely let you down on a trackday. When they do go wrong you can usually fix them there at the track. Running costs are genuinely very minimal. Spare parts, new brakes, tyres etc are all at the inexpensive end of the market. In an absolute worse case scenario that you blow the engine or wreck the body shell then a replacement engine or shell will cost you the equivalent of a weekly shop at Sainsburys! And finally, you will always have others to play with at trackdays... I challenge anyone to find a trackday in the UK which does not have half a dozen Clios booked onto it. It's much more fun driving a car when there are five more of the same car out there buzzing around at the same time.
- Buying a track ready car is always cheaper than doing it yourself -
Sometimes considerably so. I bought a fully race prepped MX5 for sub £4k and it was an absolute hoot to drive, plus it came with the safety benefits of a full rollcage, race seat, 6 point harness and plumbed in extinguisher. Conversely I'm now £6k+ into building my own Fiesta ST track car and despite all the money spent it still doesn't have any of those features yet. So I'd strongly recommend buying a car that is already built for the track - just make sure its been well looked after, regularly serviced, and not left outside under a tarp for months on end.
- Get a car that is road legal -
Having just sold my EK9 Civic for this exact reason, I'd recommend getting a car that is road legal and keeping it that way. There is a lot to be said for being able to drive your road car out of your garage and straight to your local circuit, especially for a short evening session. The faff involved in driving a trailer or transporter and loading up and unloading and towing etc, all takes part of the fun away from a trackday. It can be hard work, and I get so much more enjoyment out of a day by just arriving in the car and then driving it home again. If something goes wrong, you can always pay to be collected on a low-loader.
- A trackday is nothing like racing -
I've been at the sharp end of other drivers 'frivolities' during races and I know what it feels like to get out of your car and see parts of it hanging off due to others lackluster driving standards - but that's racing! Trackdays really are nothing like this. People give each other space and respect, and you can always let someone past if they are making you feel nervous or getting too close. Driving standards on the whole are fairly high, and you don't generally see or hear anyone complaining about each other. Yes, you will get the odd driver nipping past in the corners in a lightweight Seven or something - but on the whole people are very safe and respectful.
Bit of a long post sorry, but hopefully not rambling. My main view is - do it! Get a track car and go out and have fun. The people you meet and the fun you have are a totally different experience to racing, and the lack of a structured race timetable etc makes the whole experience more chilled and in my view actually more enjoyable. Have fun!
Thanks for taking the time to comment, I’ve took onboard a lot from that I don't usually post, but I love trackdays and remember having these exact questions myself a few years ago, so I'd love to help if I can. First off - good decision on getting yourself a track car, you won't regret it. I've done dozens of trackdays over the years and have never had a bad experience yet - only hours of fun! Based on what you've said my personal opinions would be the following:
- Straight line speed isn't a huge factor for most people on trackdays -
Don't be afraid to go for a car "lacking in power". A great starting point would be one of the above mentioned cars MX5, Civic, Fiesta ST. I have owned and done trackdays in all of these and have loved each one of them. I've also done trackdays in more powerful turbocharged cars like Evos and Imprezas and I can honestly say that the fun does not go up with the power figures. Also bear in mind that in a lower powered car, mistakes usually have less severe consequences.
- The Ferrari probably isn't going to suit you for general trackday driving -
It is a precious car, and although other drivers are very unlikely to cause you any problems, a trip into the gravel trap or tyre wall might cause serious heartache. On top of that you have the upkeep costs; on a car like that you will be looking at considerably higher costs that you just won't get on the smaller cheaper cars mentioned in the posts above. It's not just the tyres and brakes, you can also run into a plethora of other issues brought on by over-exuberant track use such as overheating, or gearbox damage etc. which will be substantially more expensive in your Ferrari. If you're looking to get out on track in the Ferrari then perhaps some kind of 'members meeting' or owners club event would be better suited to you than a general trackday? You'd be around like minded folk in similar cars who will probably take it easier and also be on hand to help should anything go wrong. However, that is only my opinion - some people do general trackdays in their £200k Porsches!
- Buy a cheap hot hatch -
This is of course entirely subjective and down to personal preference, but my view is buy a Clio 182, Civic EP3, or Fiesta ST. My reasoning is that these cars very rarely let you down on a trackday. When they do go wrong you can usually fix them there at the track. Running costs are genuinely very minimal. Spare parts, new brakes, tyres etc are all at the inexpensive end of the market. In an absolute worse case scenario that you blow the engine or wreck the body shell then a replacement engine or shell will cost you the equivalent of a weekly shop at Sainsburys! And finally, you will always have others to play with at trackdays... I challenge anyone to find a trackday in the UK which does not have half a dozen Clios booked onto it. It's much more fun driving a car when there are five more of the same car out there buzzing around at the same time.
- Buying a track ready car is always cheaper than doing it yourself -
Sometimes considerably so. I bought a fully race prepped MX5 for sub £4k and it was an absolute hoot to drive, plus it came with the safety benefits of a full rollcage, race seat, 6 point harness and plumbed in extinguisher. Conversely I'm now £6k+ into building my own Fiesta ST track car and despite all the money spent it still doesn't have any of those features yet. So I'd strongly recommend buying a car that is already built for the track - just make sure its been well looked after, regularly serviced, and not left outside under a tarp for months on end.
- Get a car that is road legal -
Having just sold my EK9 Civic for this exact reason, I'd recommend getting a car that is road legal and keeping it that way. There is a lot to be said for being able to drive your road car out of your garage and straight to your local circuit, especially for a short evening session. The faff involved in driving a trailer or transporter and loading up and unloading and towing etc, all takes part of the fun away from a trackday. It can be hard work, and I get so much more enjoyment out of a day by just arriving in the car and then driving it home again. If something goes wrong, you can always pay to be collected on a low-loader.
- A trackday is nothing like racing -
I've been at the sharp end of other drivers 'frivolities' during races and I know what it feels like to get out of your car and see parts of it hanging off due to others lackluster driving standards - but that's racing! Trackdays really are nothing like this. People give each other space and respect, and you can always let someone past if they are making you feel nervous or getting too close. Driving standards on the whole are fairly high, and you don't generally see or hear anyone complaining about each other. Yes, you will get the odd driver nipping past in the corners in a lightweight Seven or something - but on the whole people are very safe and respectful.
Bit of a long post sorry, but hopefully not rambling. My main view is - do it! Get a track car and go out and have fun. The people you meet and the fun you have are a totally different experience to racing, and the lack of a structured race timetable etc makes the whole experience more chilled and in my view actually more enjoyable. Have fun!
HustleRussell said:
So you’ve made it as a professional racing driver, and somebody has been paying you to race their cars, but you have never done a trackday and moreover aren’t even aware of the basic format?
Did you just go straight to test days?
You must’ve spent scores upon scores of weekends in kart and long circuit racing paddocks, you must have some idea of what makes an effective track car?
No I’ve never been to a public track day, I don’t quite know why it’s so unbelievable, I never felt the need as I was away either testing or on a race weekend every other week.Did you just go straight to test days?
You must’ve spent scores upon scores of weekends in kart and long circuit racing paddocks, you must have some idea of what makes an effective track car?
I raced karts from 8, then jumped into single seaters, started on test days, of which wasn’t a public track day.
So no, I know everything on how a championship race weekend unfolds but haven’t the faintest on a Public track day.
And yes, I know what makes a good car and how to set them up to be, but that doesn’t mean I can’t ask people who have experience on what cheap cars work best
Edited by usn90 on Tuesday 30th April 20:10
SAS Tom said:
Whenever I see a caterham or similar at a track day the owner spends more time in the pits fixing something than actually driving. I just did a day on Saturday where there were 2 and neither of them managed more than 2 laps at a time.
I’m sure they’re great when the stars align and everything works but I couldn’t be arsed with the other 95% of the time.
What’s a ‘Caterham or similar’? I’m sure they’re great when the stars align and everything works but I couldn’t be arsed with the other 95% of the time.
The reason Caterhams were the choice of Bookatrack for a decade or so and form the basis of several one make series is because they go around the track all day so well and are so light on consumables.
I’ve done 60+ races in Caterhams over 5 seasons in a club with several grids of similar cars so I know what they do. I don’t think any tintop is going to do what a Caterham can which is pound around a track at 100% all day straight out of the box.
HustleRussell said:
SAS Tom said:
Whenever I see a caterham or similar at a track day the owner spends more time in the pits fixing something than actually driving. I just did a day on Saturday where there were 2 and neither of them managed more than 2 laps at a time.
I’m sure they’re great when the stars align and everything works but I couldn’t be arsed with the other 95% of the time.
What’s a ‘Caterham or similar’? I’m sure they’re great when the stars align and everything works but I couldn’t be arsed with the other 95% of the time.
The reason Caterhams were the choice of Bookatrack for a decade or so and form the basis of several one make series is because they go around the track all day so well and are so light on consumables.
I’ve done 60+ races in Caterhams over 5 seasons in a club with several grids of similar cars so I know what they do. I don’t think any tintop is going to do what a Caterham can which is pound around a track at 100% all day straight out of the box.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, just my experience of seeing those types of car at track days is usually broken. When so many are built by the owner in his shed it’s not a surprise they don’t all work as they should. I know they’re light and in theory all parts should last for ages, but I’m sure the difference between a factory built Caterham and one of the less well known brands built in a shed by a hobby mechanic is massive. The fact that there’s a massive range of engines used from fairly unstressed road car engines to motorbike engines means there’s going to be different levels of reliability.
SAS Tom said:
I’m sure you know what Caterham or similar means. The manufacturers of very similar cars like Westfield etc.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, just my experience of seeing those types of car at track days is usually broken. When so many are built by the owner in his shed it’s not a surprise they don’t all work as they should. I know they’re light and in theory all parts should last for ages, but I’m sure the difference between a factory built Caterham and one of the less well known brands built in a shed by a hobby mechanic is massive. The fact that there’s a massive range of engines used from fairly unstressed road car engines to motorbike engines means there’s going to be different levels of reliability.
I think Westfields, Strykers, MKs or Caterhams are about the best 10k (give or take) will get you for a track toy, especially if you want something for a summer evening.... They're also dirt cheap to insure so ideal for casual track users who don't want the expense or hassle of towbars and trailers.I’m not saying you’re wrong, just my experience of seeing those types of car at track days is usually broken. When so many are built by the owner in his shed it’s not a surprise they don’t all work as they should. I know they’re light and in theory all parts should last for ages, but I’m sure the difference between a factory built Caterham and one of the less well known brands built in a shed by a hobby mechanic is massive. The fact that there’s a massive range of engines used from fairly unstressed road car engines to motorbike engines means there’s going to be different levels of reliability.
In a sensible spec and properly bolted together they are incredibly simple and light so there's no reason for them to be unreliable. The problems arise when people don't use their car enough and turn up at track hoping everything is how it was when it last turned a wheel 6 months ago or similar to what you said - when people turn their cars into an engineering project that pushes the design of the parts they are using to the limit.
It wouldn't be most peoples choice but I can recommend the TT, its seriously cheap to buy, easily tuned to big power, loads of parts and massively quick when you have got the weight out, plus theres a core group of us that have been developing a dedicated Track TT page on facebook, so theres loads of resources there for aero, geo, mods, weight saving, group buys.
usn90 said:
...So no, I know everything on how a championship race weekend unfolds but haven’t the faintest on a Public track day.
...
Try before you buy. ...
The classifieds have always had 'track prepped' cars done by owners that only go on a few days before they get bored, run out of money or realise they don't actually like track days...Go to bookatrack.com, book a track day including the hire of a Caterham or Ginetta. You can then understand how track days work and have some hassle-free fun. You even get a little road trip there and back in your 355.
It's a shame your 355 is so loud. If it was below 105db I would very strongly recommend doing one of Goodwood's own 'noisy' track days. They are expensive but there are only 10 cars on track at a time and the one time I did it, the range of nice road cars was superb where it seemed most owners just wanted to enjoy some track time at 7/10ths. For example there was a 355 Spider, F 328, a modern Vantage V8, Morgan Aero 8, a couple of classic race cars, and a bog standard Rover 45.
SAS Tom said:
HustleRussell said:
SAS Tom said:
Whenever I see a caterham or similar at a track day the owner spends more time in the pits fixing something than actually driving. I just did a day on Saturday where there were 2 and neither of them managed more than 2 laps at a time.
I’m sure they’re great when the stars align and everything works but I couldn’t be arsed with the other 95% of the time.
What’s a ‘Caterham or similar’? I’m sure they’re great when the stars align and everything works but I couldn’t be arsed with the other 95% of the time.
The reason Caterhams were the choice of Bookatrack for a decade or so and form the basis of several one make series is because they go around the track all day so well and are so light on consumables.
I’ve done 60+ races in Caterhams over 5 seasons in a club with several grids of similar cars so I know what they do. I don’t think any tintop is going to do what a Caterham can which is pound around a track at 100% all day straight out of the box.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, just my experience of seeing those types of car at track days is usually broken. When so many are built by the owner in his shed it’s not a surprise they don’t all work as they should. I know they’re light and in theory all parts should last for ages, but I’m sure the difference between a factory built Caterham and one of the less well known brands built in a shed by a hobby mechanic is massive. The fact that there’s a massive range of engines used from fairly unstressed road car engines to motorbike engines means there’s going to be different levels of reliability.
usn90 said:
No I’ve never been to a public track day, I don’t quite know why it’s so unbelievable, I never felt the need as I was away either testing or on a race weekend every other week.
I raced karts from 8, then jumped into single seaters, started on test days, of which wasn’t a public track day.
So no, I know everything on how a championship race weekend unfolds but haven’t the faintest on a Public track day.
And yes, I know what makes a good car and how to set them up to be, but that doesn’t mean I can’t ask people who have experience on what cheap cars work best
Having spent 20 years racing and at the same time dabbling in trackdays, I can tell you that you have very little to worry about on a trackday.I raced karts from 8, then jumped into single seaters, started on test days, of which wasn’t a public track day.
So no, I know everything on how a championship race weekend unfolds but haven’t the faintest on a Public track day.
And yes, I know what makes a good car and how to set them up to be, but that doesn’t mean I can’t ask people who have experience on what cheap cars work best
Awareness: You already have a far better awareness and can 'read' other drivers on circuit - you're in a better position than 99% of the other drivers there as you'll just know when someone's driving is likely to fall short and you'll be able to keep away.
Rules: No diving passes into the corner under braking means that source of contact is removed. In most cases (RMA is the notable exception) overtaing is by consent on the straights only and most of the time it's observed - if you came across someone who's ego simply can't cope with being overtaken, drop back or go through the pitlane to avoid them.
That said, you're still doing the right thing getting a track car rather than take out the 355 IMO, if only because if it were me, I don't think I'd ever commit myself fully in a car like that.
On the subject of what to buy, everyone has an opinion but you know what you want, my advice is that unless you want to spend your time away from the track on the car, get something plentiful and that's not going to cost a lot in consumables because that way plenty of places can work on it and you won't have it on ramps waiting for parts when you want to be driving it.
Caterhem style cars are great at the track, a PITA getting there and back (you either drive for hours on the motorway in a windy coffin or need to have trailer and tow car handy). Hatchbacks are fun but without an LSD you might find them frustrating (a Clio with an LSD is a LOT of fun though). Elises etc are good halfway houses as long as you get a sorted one. Saloons all suffer from weight issues, even when lightened but BMWs are at least RWD and common enough to make them a worthwhile consideration.
My choice would be MX5/MR2/GT86 which are a combination of reliability, relatively low weight, RWD while still being comfortable enough to get to and from the circuit.
Disclosure, I have a GT86 which I track occasionally - could do with lighter wheels and more adaptable suspension, but I find it's the best compromise for me at the moment.
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