First track day car suggestions
Discussion
Black_S3 said:
SAS Tom said:
I’m sure you know what Caterham or similar means. The manufacturers of very similar cars like Westfield etc.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, just my experience of seeing those types of car at track days is usually broken. When so many are built by the owner in his shed it’s not a surprise they don’t all work as they should. I know they’re light and in theory all parts should last for ages, but I’m sure the difference between a factory built Caterham and one of the less well known brands built in a shed by a hobby mechanic is massive. The fact that there’s a massive range of engines used from fairly unstressed road car engines to motorbike engines means there’s going to be different levels of reliability.
I think Westfields, Strykers, MKs or Caterhams are about the best 10k (give or take) will get you for a track toy, especially if you want something for a summer evening.... They're also dirt cheap to insure so ideal for casual track users who don't want the expense or hassle of towbars and trailers.I’m not saying you’re wrong, just my experience of seeing those types of car at track days is usually broken. When so many are built by the owner in his shed it’s not a surprise they don’t all work as they should. I know they’re light and in theory all parts should last for ages, but I’m sure the difference between a factory built Caterham and one of the less well known brands built in a shed by a hobby mechanic is massive. The fact that there’s a massive range of engines used from fairly unstressed road car engines to motorbike engines means there’s going to be different levels of reliability.
In a sensible spec and properly bolted together they are incredibly simple and light so there's no reason for them to be unreliable. The problems arise when people don't use their car enough and turn up at track hoping everything is how it was when it last turned a wheel 6 months ago or similar to what you said - when people turn their cars into an engineering project that pushes the design of the parts they are using to the limit.
When I owned Westfields (3 of them, recently) I was on the forums and a LOT of owners look for excuses to upgrade / fiddle - it's part of the ownershipe experience. You can guarantee when they go to the track there will be several components that have not had a proper shake down.
On top of this, all kit cars are a mish mash of components, some better than others, some perhaps not designed for the track.
Track days put a LOT of strain on everything in your car. Suspension, brakes, joints, engine etc etc. Nowhere else will it run full temp for so long. Modern production cars are stress tested as part of the design process. Kit cars are not.
Add to this that a lot of 2 seater kit cars, 7's etc, are running in a high state of tune, and you have a recipie for mechanical failures.
My record wasn't too bad , and I spend nearly ALL of my track days actually driving, but, I did suffer :
Llandow - rear diff went. English live axle - all the oil went down one half shaft and starved the diff. Llandow is hard on diffs, almost no straights and pretty much all right handers. Happened towards the end of the day.
Cadwell Park - half shaft snapped late in the afternoon. LSD and Toyo 888s on fast hard final left hander. Too much grip + tight LSD = Snap! Turned out the welding was crap where it met an adapter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcQqg5EhtMI snap is at 2:00
... note how fast the VX220 is.... Supercharged (and I'm in an NA Cosworth 2.0 220Bhp).
Castle Combe - spend half the day repacking exhaust to get under noise limit.
I did however spend the vast majority fo time in all my track days actually driving, and I've seen plenty of broken "regular" cars.
A Renault Sport would be a good shout as previously mentioned. It's cheap motoring at its finest - "cheap" considering what you would be using the car for. You can drive it to the track and back and drive its bearings off whilst at it. You can carry tools/spare wheels with you as there is lots of space and most importantly there are so good straight out of the box so no major modifications needed. A set of good rubber and pads and you are good to go.
A mk3 Clio RS can be bought for peanuts now and the cup chassis is more than capable. Driven axle snobs can believe whatever they want, a Renault Sport product is far more fun than lots of RWDs out there.
Talking of FWD fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GESBeeNhYaA
A mk3 Clio RS can be bought for peanuts now and the cup chassis is more than capable. Driven axle snobs can believe whatever they want, a Renault Sport product is far more fun than lots of RWDs out there.
Talking of FWD fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GESBeeNhYaA
D7Cup said:
A Renault Sport would be a good shout as previously mentioned. It's cheap motoring at its finest - "cheap" considering what you would be using the car for. You can drive it to the track and back and drive its bearings off whilst at it. You can carry tools/spare wheels with you as there is lots of space and most importantly there are so good straight out of the box so no major modifications needed. A set of good rubber and pads and you are good to go.
A mk3 Clio RS can be bought for peanuts now and the cup chassis is more than capable. Driven axle snobs can believe whatever they want, a Renault Sport product is far more fun than lots of RWDs out there.
Talking of FWD fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GESBeeNhYaA
Superb! :-)A mk3 Clio RS can be bought for peanuts now and the cup chassis is more than capable. Driven axle snobs can believe whatever they want, a Renault Sport product is far more fun than lots of RWDs out there.
Talking of FWD fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GESBeeNhYaA
1781cc said:
It wouldn't be most peoples choice but I can recommend the TT, its seriously cheap to buy, easily tuned to big power, loads of parts and massively quick when you have got the weight out, plus theres a core group of us that have been developing a dedicated Track TT page on facebook, so theres loads of resources there for aero, geo, mods, weight saving, group buys.
Imo it’s very expensive to track these or any other highly strung 15 odd year old 1.8ts even though there’s a plenty of monster versions kicking about cheap with an insane amount of forums to help.... if you can’t DIY a clutch or head&turbo manifold removal the bills will be insane in relation to the value & performance of the car. That’s said owning an 8L s3 for 15 years that’s had one gen or another of hybrid turbo since 2009 and with now near 200k on the clock that I would never sell for realistic money.
Black_S3 said:
Imo it’s very expensive to track these or any other highly strung 15 odd year old 1.8ts even though there’s a plenty of monster versions kicking about cheap with an insane amount of forums to help.... if you can’t DIY a clutch or head&turbo manifold removal the bills will be insane in relation to the value & performance of the car.
That’s said owning an 8L s3 for 15 years that’s had one gen or another of hybrid turbo since 2009 and with now near 200k on the clock that I would never sell for realistic money.
Respectfully, I disagree, I’m over 4 years into mine and love it, I’ve had some issues as I have with other cars but they are pretty easy to work on. I’m guessing with 200k miles on the clock it’s not a hardcore track car but a fast daily driver.That’s said owning an 8L s3 for 15 years that’s had one gen or another of hybrid turbo since 2009 and with now near 200k on the clock that I would never sell for realistic money.
I think the key to running a good 1.8T is to focus on cooling, quality oil and pickup pipe / baffled sump, and not chase huge power. I think too many go for big turbos and it’s a small bay set a long way back where temp cook everything.
I’m only running 270 on a stage 2 and am pretty quick with that, no big turbo here
I have a friend that has a bit of an obsession with mk1 TTs. One was fine but the 2 since that he has sunk thousands into always have problems on every track day. ESP problems, brake problems, coolant issues, sensor issues.
It is quick and drives well but inevitably will have a problem on a track day and all the mods in the world don't fix the wooden steering. A megane R26 however is good to go and doesn't need a thousand mods.
It is quick and drives well but inevitably will have a problem on a track day and all the mods in the world don't fix the wooden steering. A megane R26 however is good to go and doesn't need a thousand mods.
Another option, which I don't think seems to have come up - is to consider the AWD options out there.
It sounds as though the OP has already made up their mind, but for others in the same situation I would certainly make the argument for the four wheel drive cars which are prevalent at almost every trackday. There is a good reason so many people use them - they are a riot!
Having driven Imprezas and Evos at trackdays myself, and having seen others having enormous fun in AWD Audis, Skylines, Focus RS and Lamborghinis, I think it's fairly obvious that AWD is a popular option if it suits your tastes.
A classic Impreza Turbo can still be had for reasonably low money, and there are a plethora of later WRX models (Bugeye, Blobeye and the 2.5 Hawkeye) available for circa £5k. Parts and repairs can sometimes be more costly than a hot hatch, but no more so than many of the other alternatives.
They are reliable, comfortable, and turbocharged - and therefore very fast on the straights. AWD gives you a totally different yet rewarding experience. They are also immense fun in the wet!
Running costs & mods do not need to be astronomical, many of them come with already superb suspension setups, so you really can take them on track with just tyres and brake pads upgraded. So why not consider a cheap and well looked after Impreza WRX?
(cue the haters!)
It sounds as though the OP has already made up their mind, but for others in the same situation I would certainly make the argument for the four wheel drive cars which are prevalent at almost every trackday. There is a good reason so many people use them - they are a riot!
Having driven Imprezas and Evos at trackdays myself, and having seen others having enormous fun in AWD Audis, Skylines, Focus RS and Lamborghinis, I think it's fairly obvious that AWD is a popular option if it suits your tastes.
A classic Impreza Turbo can still be had for reasonably low money, and there are a plethora of later WRX models (Bugeye, Blobeye and the 2.5 Hawkeye) available for circa £5k. Parts and repairs can sometimes be more costly than a hot hatch, but no more so than many of the other alternatives.
They are reliable, comfortable, and turbocharged - and therefore very fast on the straights. AWD gives you a totally different yet rewarding experience. They are also immense fun in the wet!
Running costs & mods do not need to be astronomical, many of them come with already superb suspension setups, so you really can take them on track with just tyres and brake pads upgraded. So why not consider a cheap and well looked after Impreza WRX?
(cue the haters!)
1781cc said:
Respectfully, I disagree, I’m over 4 years into mine and love it, I’ve had some issues as I have with other cars but they are pretty easy to work on. I’m guessing with 200k miles on the clock it’s not a hardcore track car but a fast daily driver.
I think the key to running a good 1.8T is to focus on cooling, quality oil and pickup pipe / baffled sump, and not chase huge power. I think too many go for big turbos and it’s a small bay set a long way back where temp cook everything.
I’m only running 270 on a stage 2 and am pretty quick with that, no big turbo here
Yeah still got full interior and road tyres/geo. As good as they are and as fast as they can be made I think there’s easier and cheaper cars and better cars to start off with these days....I think the key to running a good 1.8T is to focus on cooling, quality oil and pickup pipe / baffled sump, and not chase huge power. I think too many go for big turbos and it’s a small bay set a long way back where temp cook everything.
I’m only running 270 on a stage 2 and am pretty quick with that, no big turbo here
Looking at the minimum upgrades of brembos, coils, tie bars, arbs, front mount, tip, down pipe, rods and clutch the build cost rapidly mounts up.... Maybe the K03 non Haldex versions have less problematic parts and are lighter to start with? Still think if a fast hatch is what someone wants the Megan cups are a better place to start now the prices of them have fallen to sensible money for a track car. I guess that doesn’t leave as much room for upgrading and making something faster which some people see as half the fun though...
1781cc said:
Respectfully, I disagree, I’m over 4 years into mine and love it, I’ve had some issues as I have with other cars but they are pretty easy to work on. I’m guessing with 200k miles on the clock it’s not a hardcore track car but a fast daily driver.
I think the key to running a good 1.8T is to focus on cooling, quality oil and pickup pipe / baffled sump, and not chase huge power. I think too many go for big turbos and it’s a small bay set a long way back where temp cook everything.
I’m only running 270 on a stage 2 and am pretty quick with that, no big turbo here
That's fine if you want a (very) long upgrade path as part of the track day hobby. I think the key to running a good 1.8T is to focus on cooling, quality oil and pickup pipe / baffled sump, and not chase huge power. I think too many go for big turbos and it’s a small bay set a long way back where temp cook everything.
I’m only running 270 on a stage 2 and am pretty quick with that, no big turbo here
For those who want to maximise their driving time over tinkering time the only solution is for something simpler and lighter to start with.
So earlier posters' suggestions of MX5/MR2/GT86 and sporty Renaults are much more sensible for a 'first track day car suggestion' than AWD turbos like TTs, Evos and WRXs. All the latter lead to frustration on track until a lot of time and money has been spent making them more track ready. Added to which are ongoing heat management issues and not least, consumables...
I was at Brands Hatch this week in a Caterham and there was a bunch of modified VAG stuff there including 2 modified S3s of mid-2000s vintage - one blew up and dropped fluid all over the track and the other was extensively modded and done well, but there was no stopping it understeering like a pig through Clearways (I had a good view following it) and after all that work and expense it was still slower than a 135hp Caterham...
Cavey said:
Megane R26 is a great package even when standard (better than the 225 as has the diff).
Yup, I have always responded to the opening question with MX5 or Clio 172/182 depending on RWD/FWD preference, but I have an R26 as a train station commute car, and its actually not too bad as a standard car on track (had to use mine at short notice when the normal track car blew its forged engine) with good suspension and brakes as standard. Mine also happily keeps pace with the exotics on a weekend run out with friends.I wouldn't pay the £20k premium for the R26r though, as £6-7K will get you someone else's track ready example that will out perform it.
Black_S3 said:
1781cc said:
It wouldn't be most peoples choice but I can recommend the TT, its seriously cheap to buy, easily tuned to big power, loads of parts and massively quick when you have got the weight out, plus theres a core group of us that have been developing a dedicated Track TT page on facebook, so theres loads of resources there for aero, geo, mods, weight saving, group buys.
Imo it’s very expensive to track these or any other highly strung 15 odd year old 1.8ts even though there’s a plenty of monster versions kicking about cheap with an insane amount of forums to help.... if you can’t DIY a clutch or head&turbo manifold removal the bills will be insane in relation to the value & performance of the car. That’s said owning an 8L s3 for 15 years that’s had one gen or another of hybrid turbo since 2009 and with now near 200k on the clock that I would never sell for realistic money.
It was also quicker than a stripped out Evo7, that was also running slick tyres.
Hol said:
About 15 years back I was once out matched over a number of laps in my 400bhp Impreza by two old fellas in a beat up looking black Mk2 Golf running slick tyres and a TT lump under the bonnet. It apparently only had around 270bhp, but everything was rose-jointed and lightened so it weighed nothing, but had awesome grip.
It was also quicker than a stripped out Evo7, that was also running slick tyres.
I don’t doubt that for a second... it’s the cost of getting to that if you’re not extremely handy with a spanner and that 15 years ago 300bhp+ was the preserve of pretty much supercars or supercar slayers when these days there’s plenty of factory output hatches with similar power that would make it a no from me as a track car recommendation.... Not saying I don’t think they’re amazing when done properly.It was also quicker than a stripped out Evo7, that was also running slick tyres.
Pretty much all Audi’s are setup to understeer, especially of that vintage but I don’t have that issue, I’m running 4 degree of camber front, 1.5 rear, Gaz golds with 850lb springs front and 1300lb springs rear, slicks, fully polybushed and no anti-roll bars whatsoever, the car just goes where I point it, it’s a million miles from factory.
Also echoing what someone has mentioned above, the DC2 Integra R is an amazing car, I had one back in 2002 and it was a pleasure to drive, as was the S2000 on track back in 2005, but prices are high for them now unfortunately.
Also echoing what someone has mentioned above, the DC2 Integra R is an amazing car, I had one back in 2002 and it was a pleasure to drive, as was the S2000 on track back in 2005, but prices are high for them now unfortunately.
SparrowHawk said:
Hi usn90
I don't usually post, but I love trackdays and remember having these exact questions myself a few years ago, so I'd love to help if I can.
All well said.I don't usually post, but I love trackdays and remember having these exact questions myself a few years ago, so I'd love to help if I can.
I was in the same position as the OP last year (although not in Fezza territory but similar reasoning). Budget was under £2k for purchase cost with a view to spending £10k on the car over the next few years.
Wanted something a bit left field so when a stripped V40 T4 came up well under budget went for it. Currently putting it back together for the summer season after replacing / upgrading everything on all 4 corners, the 3 yearly stages being 1 - brakes and suspension 2 - cage 3 - power (plus all the other myriad things that go with each of those and properly preparing a car).
Unless you are buying something that someone else has done all the hard work on, which is the most cost effective route but isn't "yours", what I have learned is that when choosing which car do a whole heap of research on availability and cost of after market parts. Luckily the V40 shares some bits with early Evo's but otherwise you'll struggle to even get poly bushes. Most of the popular choices (Clio, Civic, E36 etc) will all have plenty of gear available, relatively cheaply.
Also be warned about addictability - you'll soon be yearning after that £3k 6 pot kit imagining how much better that will be into Vale.
If I had a higher budget I would have probably gone AWD, maybe an Evo but perhaps more left field again - RS4 possibly.
Bit of an update,
The last few months I had the headache of selling & buying and of course moving house so plans were put on hold.
decided on an ep3 type R, reason being I used to own one and really enjoyed it for what it was, I always wanted to add a supercharger but never did so I think this will be a feature on the car.
First steps will be stripping the car, Addin some braces and better tyres.
Then will come the SC, brakes, exhaust and springs in no particular order.
The last few months I had the headache of selling & buying and of course moving house so plans were put on hold.
decided on an ep3 type R, reason being I used to own one and really enjoyed it for what it was, I always wanted to add a supercharger but never did so I think this will be a feature on the car.
First steps will be stripping the car, Addin some braces and better tyres.
Then will come the SC, brakes, exhaust and springs in no particular order.
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