Should race cars be banned from attending track days?
Poll: Should race cars be banned from attending track days?
Total Members Polled: 300
Discussion
nickfrog said:
Wh00sher said:
nickfrog said:
Sorry but by the time you report to the TDO it's too late. Track days are for safe fun with strict overtaking rules and certainly not in the braking or traction zones. Race teams enter TD to save money, not to have fun and will have zero incentive to comply. They should be booking test days.
It`s not too late at all.If the Race guy is reported and spoken to by the TDO early on he has time to address his driving. If he does it again and is reported, the TDO should take steps to either take the car off the circuit for a sin-bin or remove him altogether.
If he goes to another trackday and is reported again, there is a good chance he`ll learn that behaving like a knob is going to get him sent home and to change his ways.
I don`t get why people won`t report bad driving straight away. If the rest of us follow what are very simple rules of the day, why can`t they and why shouldn`t they be taken to task about it ?
t. I reported them, but the "damage" was done as it was their last run clearly. It wasn't the end of the world but you basically had to let them trough on turn in as they were not complying whith the rules clearly set out in the briefing. It's kind of expected hence my yes vote. nickfrog said:
Silverstone last week, everyone behaved well, testers and road car drivers. And then at 3.00pm, as the track was drying, 4 race Caterhams in a file started diving in and the usual st. I reported them, but the "damage" was done as it was their last run clearly. It wasn't the end of the world but you basically had to let them trough on turn in as they were not complying whith the rules clearly set out in the briefing. It's kind of expected hence my yes vote.
I had a similar experience with 4 Caterhams at Donington at the end of last season; I wonder if they were the same group?t. I reported them, but the "damage" was done as it was their last run clearly. It wasn't the end of the world but you basically had to let them trough on turn in as they were not complying whith the rules clearly set out in the briefing. It's kind of expected hence my yes vote. From their Facebook page: "OUR STORY. Who are we? Simply put we're a group of guys who enjoy thrashing our Carerham R300s around various .....".
Zoobeef said:
What do you class as a racecar?
Really tricky question. I would hazard a guess though 
: a car that races. In this instance they were 420r championship cars on a shakedown/test/set up day who were saving money by not booking a test day. Which was fine until they stopped complying with the clear instructions given to them and taking chances and relying on other drivers not turning into them.As discussed previously, the title of the thread should really be about testing on a track day.
nickfrog said:
Really tricky question. I would hazard a guess though : a car that races. In this instance they were 420r championship cars on a shakedown/test/set up day who were saving money by not booking a test day. Which was fine until they stopped complying with the clear instructions given to them and taking chances and relying on other drivers not turning into them.
As discussed previously, the title of the thread should really be about testing on a track day.
So once a car has been in a race its banned from all future trackdays? Wether it's a C1 or a Ferrari? : a car that races. In this instance they were 420r championship cars on a shakedown/test/set up day who were saving money by not booking a test day. Which was fine until they stopped complying with the clear instructions given to them and taking chances and relying on other drivers not turning into them.As discussed previously, the title of the thread should really be about testing on a track day.
What about a fully stickered up time attack car? That's not racing.
I cant remember the last time a racecar stopped play at a trackday. Pretty much a constant feature at every opentrack trackday I've been on is a stream of red flags from morning until lunch.
Driver training should be compulsory and a 3 stoppages and you're off rule (30 min break after first one, 1 hour break after the second).
No car should be banned based on someone else's pre-conceived opinion of how the driver may behave. I race and do track days in the same car. I do track days mostly because I enjoy driving and experiencing other circuits that I can't race at.
When on a trackday, I am the most gentlemanly driver you will encounter (barring the odd unintended mistake/misinterpretation of the situation). So should the fact that I entered a few races in a year mean I can't now do trackdays (which are the majority of my track time)?
I do track days with a couple of other guys, one of which has a race licence but doesn't race this car, the other is straight up track-days. I'm not the quickest of the 3 by a margin, but I'm certainly the most well-mannered on a track day. Should I still be banned because my car is a "proper" race car.
I can assure you when we were all doing trackdays in more road-legal machinery the same attributes still applied, and the fact we are using more recognisable "race" cars really hasn't changed a thing.
Have I tested on track-days? Yes - in terms of simply getting "seat time" in to learn a circuit, or perhaps shake-down test a car where I can slowly build up the pace in a non-pressured environment and make sure the car is mechanically sound. I never time on a track day and if I want to try and put together a "qualifying" lap I will do so at the end of the day when the track is clear. If not I'll happily work around other cars and tackle one corner at a time where I've got space. Whatever I do I'm very cognisant of the track day rules and the restrictions that apply, and happy to comply.
There seems to be a misconception that there is lots of "test" days available for race cars to go on - there isn't. There used to be more before track days became popular, but for me testing is usually only available the day before a race weekend, and the time can be limited to as little as 3x20min sessions in a day, so track days are a very welcome opportunity to get some miles in before an event.
Enforcing behaviour needs to be a 2-way communication between the participants and the TDO. The TDO need to be strict to enforce, but on the other hand lots of people moan about other drivers but don't notify the TDO, so they are "blind" then get their day criticised online the next day, when they had no reports. The marshalls are there to monitor driver safety and except in extreme circumstances aren't there to police manners and adherence to rules which can change between TDOs, so the drivers need to take responsibility for reporting.
In my experience, the most dangerous people on track days are not defined by the car, and you can tell from their driving mannerisms who are going to be problems within the first few laps.
When on a trackday, I am the most gentlemanly driver you will encounter (barring the odd unintended mistake/misinterpretation of the situation). So should the fact that I entered a few races in a year mean I can't now do trackdays (which are the majority of my track time)?
I do track days with a couple of other guys, one of which has a race licence but doesn't race this car, the other is straight up track-days. I'm not the quickest of the 3 by a margin, but I'm certainly the most well-mannered on a track day. Should I still be banned because my car is a "proper" race car.
I can assure you when we were all doing trackdays in more road-legal machinery the same attributes still applied, and the fact we are using more recognisable "race" cars really hasn't changed a thing.
Have I tested on track-days? Yes - in terms of simply getting "seat time" in to learn a circuit, or perhaps shake-down test a car where I can slowly build up the pace in a non-pressured environment and make sure the car is mechanically sound. I never time on a track day and if I want to try and put together a "qualifying" lap I will do so at the end of the day when the track is clear. If not I'll happily work around other cars and tackle one corner at a time where I've got space. Whatever I do I'm very cognisant of the track day rules and the restrictions that apply, and happy to comply.
There seems to be a misconception that there is lots of "test" days available for race cars to go on - there isn't. There used to be more before track days became popular, but for me testing is usually only available the day before a race weekend, and the time can be limited to as little as 3x20min sessions in a day, so track days are a very welcome opportunity to get some miles in before an event.
Enforcing behaviour needs to be a 2-way communication between the participants and the TDO. The TDO need to be strict to enforce, but on the other hand lots of people moan about other drivers but don't notify the TDO, so they are "blind" then get their day criticised online the next day, when they had no reports. The marshalls are there to monitor driver safety and except in extreme circumstances aren't there to police manners and adherence to rules which can change between TDOs, so the drivers need to take responsibility for reporting.
In my experience, the most dangerous people on track days are not defined by the car, and you can tell from their driving mannerisms who are going to be problems within the first few laps.
Zoobeef said:
So once a car has been in a race its banned from all future trackdays? Wether it's a C1 or a Ferrari?
What about a fully stickered up time attack car? That's not racing.
I cant remember the last time a racecar stopped play at a trackday. Pretty much a constant feature at every opentrack trackday I've been on is a stream of red flags from morning until lunch.
Driver training should be compulsory and a 3 stoppages and you're off rule (30 min break after first one, 1 hour break after the second).
Strawman arguments. What about a fully stickered up time attack car? That's not racing.
I cant remember the last time a racecar stopped play at a trackday. Pretty much a constant feature at every opentrack trackday I've been on is a stream of red flags from morning until lunch.
Driver training should be compulsory and a 3 stoppages and you're off rule (30 min break after first one, 1 hour break after the second).
I didn't mention banning nor stoppages.
My view is that if you want to test your race car book a test day (a clue in the name) or comply with the track day rules, which I appreciate is not ideal, but that's probably why there are test days.
IME, race drivers testing on track days often don't comply (not all of them of course).
Order66 said:
Have I tested on track-days? Yes - in terms of simply getting "seat time" in to learn a circuit, or perhaps shake-down test a car where I can slowly build up the pace in a non-pressured environment and make sure the car is mechanically sound. I never time on a track day and if I want to try and put together a "qualifying" lap I will do so at the end of the day when the track is clear. If not I'll happily work around other cars and tackle one corner at a time where I've got space. Whatever I do I'm very cognisant of the track day rules and the restrictions that apply, and happy to comply.
There seems to be a misconception that there is lots of "test" days available for race cars to go on - there isn't. There used to be more before track days became popular
I admire your attitude and I have no issues with you going on track days as described. Unfortunately when teams turn up on TD with full data logging gear and have a different attitude, it creates issues. There seems to be a misconception that there is lots of "test" days available for race cars to go on - there isn't. There used to be more before track days became popular
The reason why there are less test days is that some teams want to save money by booking TD instead.
nickfrog said:
I admire your attitude and I have no issues with you going on track days as described. Unfortunately when teams turn up on TD with full data logging gear and have a different attitude, it creates issues.
I completely agree - so the question remains, should I be banned from track days because of the behaviour of others as you describe? I see as many people who are non-racers timing on trackdays as I do racers.nickfrog said:
The reason why there are less test days is that some teams want to save money by booking TD instead.
There is some truth in that, but also the race series don't generally want the hassle of running test days and track days give them an easy "out". It leaves the racers with little test time and even if you don't want to use them, the need to get on-track means track days have to be utilised. I don't see a problem with this so long as they obey TD rules.nickfrog said:
Strawman arguments.
I didn't mention banning nor stoppages.
My view is that if you want to test your race car book a test day (a clue in the name) or comply with the track day rules, which I appreciate is not ideal, but that's probably why there are test days.
IME, race drivers testing on track days often don't comply (not all of them of course).
Erm, not allowing racecars at trackdays is banning them. Unless you have another word for it.I didn't mention banning nor stoppages.
My view is that if you want to test your race car book a test day (a clue in the name) or comply with the track day rules, which I appreciate is not ideal, but that's probably why there are test days.
IME, race drivers testing on track days often don't comply (not all of them of course).
nickfrog said:
I admire your attitude and I have no issues with you going on track days as described. Unfortunately when teams turn up on TD with full data logging gear and have a different attitude, it creates issues.
The reason why there are less test days is that some teams want to save money by booking TD instead.
I like how you think all racecars have teams.The reason why there are less test days is that some teams want to save money by booking TD instead.
Theres me and the mrs, some people have more support running trackday cars. I can do 2 open pitlane trackdays for the price of 1 sessioned "test day".
You'll never stop it so no point moaning online, complain on the day. It would be cheaper for me to remove the stickers for trackdays than it would be to do test days.
Zoobeef said:
I like how you think all racecars have teams.
More strawman argument.Zoobeef said:
You'll never stop it so no point moaning online, complain on the day.
More strawman argument.I do complain on the day, when it's not too late.
Stop moaning about my views online. Live with it.
Zoobeef said:
Meh, I see theres no rationalizing your prejudice.
I have no prejudice to rationalise. I simply observe that some people, either individuals or teams, use TDs as test days instead of using test days as test days. Again, there is a huge clue in the name, where the word "test" appears
Sometimes it's fine. Sometimes it isn't. So on balance I would prefer if people didn't use track days as test days, however unfair that is for the compliant testers. They should take it up with those not complying who are spoiling it for all the testers. A self policing approach if you like. It shouldn't even be up to me.
Some people pick TDs to test to save money. No issue from me providing this doesn't affect the value I get from the TD. But the minute they start not complying it affects it, from direct experience. So I am against it.
This is my rationale but I am happy for it to evolve if I see a change of attitude from the non compliant testers.
nickfrog said:
I have no prejudice to rationalise.
I simply observe that some people, either individuals or teams, use TDs as test days instead of using test days as test days. Again, there is a huge clue in the name, where the word "test" appears
Sometimes it's fine. Sometimes it isn't. So on balance I would prefer if people didn't use track days as test days, however unfair that is for the compliant testers. They should take it up with those not complying who are spoiling it for all the testers. A self policing approach if you like. It shouldn't even be up to me.
Some people pick TDs to test to save money. No issue from me providing this doesn't affect the value I get from the TD. But the minute they start not complying it affects it, from direct experience. So I am against it.
This is my rationale but I am happy for it to evolve if I see a change of attitude from the non compliant testers.
The fact you think all racecars should be banned from trackdays regardless of who is driving is a prejudice.I simply observe that some people, either individuals or teams, use TDs as test days instead of using test days as test days. Again, there is a huge clue in the name, where the word "test" appears
Sometimes it's fine. Sometimes it isn't. So on balance I would prefer if people didn't use track days as test days, however unfair that is for the compliant testers. They should take it up with those not complying who are spoiling it for all the testers. A self policing approach if you like. It shouldn't even be up to me.
Some people pick TDs to test to save money. No issue from me providing this doesn't affect the value I get from the TD. But the minute they start not complying it affects it, from direct experience. So I am against it.
This is my rationale but I am happy for it to evolve if I see a change of attitude from the non compliant testers.
How do you think I'm supposed to take the fact that you want me banned for doing nothing wrong?
I guarantee there is more poor driving from none racecars than racecars. Yet you are picking on racecars as it's easier to label as they stand out.
I would like all French cars banned from trackdays as they cause the majority of red flags in my experience.
Zoobeef said:
The fact you think all racecars should be banned from trackdays regardless of who is driving is a prejudice.
How do you think I'm supposed to take the fact that you want me banned for doing nothing wrong?
I guarantee there is more poor driving from none racecars than racecars. Yet you are picking on racecars as it's easier to label as they stand out.
I would like all French cars banned from trackdays as they cause the majority of red flags in my experience.
I am genuinely sorry to hear how emotional you can be about this ( I am not sarcastic here).How do you think I'm supposed to take the fact that you want me banned for doing nothing wrong?
I guarantee there is more poor driving from none racecars than racecars. Yet you are picking on racecars as it's easier to label as they stand out.
I would like all French cars banned from trackdays as they cause the majority of red flags in my experience.
There is nothing personal about my view, it's not an attack on you or other compliant testers. I am not actively trying to get you banned, I just have a rational unbiased view that, as it currently stands, testing should be on testing days to avoid the problems caused by those who don't comply.
If you fully comply with instructions even when testing in a racecar on a TD, I have no issues whatsoever and perhaps you should direct your angst at your fellow racers who don't comply, give you a bad name and therefore pose a threat to your access to TDs ?
It is not an arbitrary prejudice as I am fully aware that some testers like you are compliant. But conversely there is no easy and fair solution until everyone complies, is there ?
I reckon my level of influence over the TDO's commercial policy is very limited so I doubt the situation will change soon.
Edited by nickfrog on Tuesday 18th February 20:35
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