Opinions please: AWD hot hatch vs RWD for track
Discussion
I have spent the last few years building a MK6 Golf to fun power levels and made it lose most of the understeer with various suspension tweaks, LSD Haldex controller and brake upgrades etc. It's now really enjoyable on track and is a nice drive home afterwards (could do with weight reduction).
Last weekend, we bought a decent condition BMW E92 M3 with no modifications and it's readjusted my perception of how a car should handle and that RWD feels very nice - what an absolute pleasure to drive. I'm itching to see what it'll do on track (possibly with brake pad upgrades). It's not as fast as the car above but feels more fun.
Ideally would like to semi-strip / roll-cage one of them down into a road legal track focused car at some point in the future.
So I am curious to hear opinions from people that have tracked their E92 type cars and how they might compare against the VAG group AWD hot hatches?
Last weekend, we bought a decent condition BMW E92 M3 with no modifications and it's readjusted my perception of how a car should handle and that RWD feels very nice - what an absolute pleasure to drive. I'm itching to see what it'll do on track (possibly with brake pad upgrades). It's not as fast as the car above but feels more fun.
Ideally would like to semi-strip / roll-cage one of them down into a road legal track focused car at some point in the future.
So I am curious to hear opinions from people that have tracked their E92 type cars and how they might compare against the VAG group AWD hot hatches?
Nice position to be in!
My friend who I do track days with has a E92 M3 and really enjoys it apart from the brakes limitations. I can't compare to a 4wd car but the Megane is significantly slower in a straight line but probably not at the apex.
I don't think 4wd will gain you much in the dry, a car is only as quick as it's outside front tyre as you have gathered in your understeer mitigating mods.
I am not sure how much weight you can shave off the M3 while retaining some road comfort.
My friend who I do track days with has a E92 M3 and really enjoys it apart from the brakes limitations. I can't compare to a 4wd car but the Megane is significantly slower in a straight line but probably not at the apex.
I don't think 4wd will gain you much in the dry, a car is only as quick as it's outside front tyre as you have gathered in your understeer mitigating mods.
I am not sure how much weight you can shave off the M3 while retaining some road comfort.
It would be RWD for me all day long.
I've tracked a 400bhp Impreza, a 190bhp Elise and now a 260bhp Exige and although I initially feel my commitment levels are lower on the RWD cars - they feel like they have a much higher ceiling for enjoyment on track, and I imagine with all else being equal I would become a better driver (eventually) by tracking RWD vs AWD.
That said, wet trackdays in the Subaru were an absolute hoot - and it was a mental road car
I've tracked a 400bhp Impreza, a 190bhp Elise and now a 260bhp Exige and although I initially feel my commitment levels are lower on the RWD cars - they feel like they have a much higher ceiling for enjoyment on track, and I imagine with all else being equal I would become a better driver (eventually) by tracking RWD vs AWD.
That said, wet trackdays in the Subaru were an absolute hoot - and it was a mental road car
I’ve done the fast hatch car thing with a 250bhp Mini (uprated suspension etc etc) albeit of course fwd & I’ve now applied some smart thinking by going 50/50 with a friend on a 325ti manual which we’ve done some mods to for occasional track use (brakes, tyres, suspension & seats) - I think you can have as much fun with a £3k track car as you can one that owes you £10-15k with the comfort if you did unluckily get swiped off the circuit by someone who was lacking talent/concentration, it’s a £3k loss at worst.
I’d say rear wheel drive any day as you get much greater appreciation on setup & track conditions
I’d say rear wheel drive any day as you get much greater appreciation on setup & track conditions
I've done track days in front wheel drive hot hatches and now rear wheel drive 2 seaters probably with similar power levels give or take a little. Based on my experience I'd say the AWD is going to be easier to drive at speeds on the track but the RWD is going to be a lot more involving and ultimately more fun and dare I say driving a rear wheel drive car at speeds on track will make you a better driver long term.
nickfrog said:
Nice position to be in!
My friend who I do track days with has a E92 M3 and really enjoys it apart from the brakes limitations. I can't compare to a 4wd car but the Megane is significantly slower in a straight line but probably not at the apex.
I don't think 4wd will gain you much in the dry, a car is only as quick as it's outside front tyre as you have gathered in your understeer mitigating mods.
I am not sure how much weight you can shave off the M3 while retaining some road comfort.
I know very little about E92 M3s on track, what's the limitations they have on brakes? I assume you're talking about heavy car on stock brakes having big issues, so big brake kits are quite important. I can get away with a pad and fluid change in my MX5 but then they rarely do >110mph at the start of each braking zone My friend who I do track days with has a E92 M3 and really enjoys it apart from the brakes limitations. I can't compare to a 4wd car but the Megane is significantly slower in a straight line but probably not at the apex.
I don't think 4wd will gain you much in the dry, a car is only as quick as it's outside front tyre as you have gathered in your understeer mitigating mods.
I am not sure how much weight you can shave off the M3 while retaining some road comfort.
I use a Golf R32 for the track. I couldn't see the point of using it day to day (20mpg and not very fast) and it would not make what it owes me if I sold it so I decide to have some fun on the track.
I have stripped it out and fitted coilovers, better pads, buckets etc.
Its still too heavy (although now twitchy in the wet at the rear as I found out at Dony yesterday) and isn't very agile or that involving buts its great fun (four wheel drifts) and if it breaks its not the end of the world. There were a couple of Golf Rs there yesterday and they were very quick esp in the wet.
It has been a good introduction to track days but I would love to replace it with something RWD although I could be tempted by a Megane RS.
I have stripped it out and fitted coilovers, better pads, buckets etc.
Its still too heavy (although now twitchy in the wet at the rear as I found out at Dony yesterday) and isn't very agile or that involving buts its great fun (four wheel drifts) and if it breaks its not the end of the world. There were a couple of Golf Rs there yesterday and they were very quick esp in the wet.
It has been a good introduction to track days but I would love to replace it with something RWD although I could be tempted by a Megane RS.
Cupra Black said:
I use a Golf R32 for the track. I couldn't see the point of using it day to day (20mpg and not very fast) and it would not make what it owes me if I sold it so I decide to have some fun on the track.
I have stripped it out and fitted coilovers, better pads, buckets etc.
Its still too heavy (although now twitchy in the wet at the rear as I found out at Dony yesterday) and isn't very agile or that involving buts its great fun (four wheel drifts) and if it breaks its not the end of the world. There were a couple of Golf Rs there yesterday and they were very quick esp in the wet.
It has been a good introduction to track days but I would love to replace it with something RWD although I could be tempted by a Megane RS.
Same - cant really sell mine after all the mods, would never get back what it owes me. I found that they can be very twitchy in the wet when on tyres with poor wet grip - I think the Haldex goes into overdrive sensing wheel spin and then suddenly reconnects / disconnects with some force, completely unsettling the car which is more disconcerting than it being completely off - it's very unpredictable and actually works against you. I have stripped it out and fitted coilovers, better pads, buckets etc.
Its still too heavy (although now twitchy in the wet at the rear as I found out at Dony yesterday) and isn't very agile or that involving buts its great fun (four wheel drifts) and if it breaks its not the end of the world. There were a couple of Golf Rs there yesterday and they were very quick esp in the wet.
It has been a good introduction to track days but I would love to replace it with something RWD although I could be tempted by a Megane RS.
xjay1337 said:
Rear wheel drive every time.
So much more fun. Much better as well to help you improve your driving skills.
i'm going to counter that by saying fwd can present its own challenges.So much more fun. Much better as well to help you improve your driving skills.
i hope so, as my fully prepped supercharged mx5 is no more and i'll be combining a station car with occasional track use next year. JCW current favourite. i'll give it go, enthusiastically, and see if it works out.
CABC said:
i'm going to counter that by saying fwd can present its own challenges.
i hope so, as my fully prepped supercharged mx5 is no more and i'll be combining a station car with occasional track use next year. JCW current favourite. i'll give it go, enthusiastically, and see if it works out.
It's also about set up. A lazily set up RWD car does nothing for me compared to an aggressively set up front driver with a more mobile rear end. Getting the rear to over rotate before or after the apex is as challenging/intertesting for me although of course you can do both with a RWD! i hope so, as my fully prepped supercharged mx5 is no more and i'll be combining a station car with occasional track use next year. JCW current favourite. i'll give it go, enthusiastically, and see if it works out.
CABC said:
JCW current favourite. i'll give it go, enthusiastically, and see if it works out.
I did similar a couple of years ago just for a change.Had a VERY well rounded e36 328, sold it & used the budget to go r53.
Now at 233 bhp, corners like a house-fly & is great fun, as was the e36, but it is more driveable on the road as it is a bit less single purpose.
E-bmw said:
CABC said:
JCW current favourite. i'll give it go, enthusiastically, and see if it works out.
I did similar a couple of years ago just for a change.Had a VERY well rounded e36 328, sold it & used the budget to go r53.
Now at 233 bhp, corners like a house-fly & is great fun, as was the e36, but it is more driveable on the road as it is a bit less single purpose.
i will embrace the new venture and enjoy the comfort to & from track, and not having to collect it from storage.
But i really wonder whether i can but miss the old girl when perched up high in a hatch.
i'm looking at late R56. not too much heavier and more reliable. hopefully...
swmbo vetoed Clio & FiST. i'm not fighting that battle, as i suspect 2021 bring on another project once i've let her win this one.
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