fatal crash at Goodwood today
Discussion
my condolances to any who knew the passengers. I've witnessed a crash on the Nurgburgring, where I though the biker was dead or paralyzed, so I can relate a bit to the shock and horror that comes with something like this.
But forgive me, do you have a link to the ferrari chat board, or can think about sharing what caused the crash? Driver error is one thing I can understand not dwelling on , and suppose that a car failure or interferance from another car would be a sticky subject, but as with the CGT crash, there is usually something to be learned from such things.
BTW - the BBC article says the crash happened at the same track as the FOS - which was on Lord March's driveway when I was there in 2000... wasn't the crash on the Revival track?]
best regards
Kurt
>> Edited by kedelbach on Wednesday 29th June 23:49
>> Edited by kedelbach on Wednesday 29th June 23:53
But forgive me, do you have a link to the ferrari chat board, or can think about sharing what caused the crash? Driver error is one thing I can understand not dwelling on , and suppose that a car failure or interferance from another car would be a sticky subject, but as with the CGT crash, there is usually something to be learned from such things.
BTW - the BBC article says the crash happened at the same track as the FOS - which was on Lord March's driveway when I was there in 2000... wasn't the crash on the Revival track?]
best regards
Kurt
F355GTS said:
from a post on Ferrarichat
The passenger of the car was actually the instructor. His name is Matt Griffin and he normally races the Vauxhall Monaro. He instructs all over the country and is often seen at Goodwood.
Matt is presently in hospital suffering from a severely broken left ankle, punctured lung, 4 broken ribs and swelling to the brain.
It was a horrendous accident and does not warrant further explanation in respect for the deceased relatives. The son of the deceased driver was actually in the car behind.
I have just set up a forum on Matts web site if any of you would like to leave a get well message. I know it will do him the power of good.
Thank you all for your concern
Lorie Coffey
<a href="www.Matt-Griffin.co.uk"><a href="www.Matt-Griffin.co.uk">www.Matt-Griffin.co.uk</a></a>
>> Edited by kedelbach on Wednesday 29th June 23:49
>> Edited by kedelbach on Wednesday 29th June 23:53
Ferrarichat link
www.ferrarichat.com
My condolences to the driver and his family.
best wishes to Matt in his recovery.
www.ferrarichat.com
My condolences to the driver and his family.
best wishes to Matt in his recovery.
pagey said:
There is a picture in the local paper - The Evening Argus - of the car partially covered up with a tarpaulin - on the nearside rear you can see 'Arrive and Drive' signwriting
a bit like this one then, pic taken at the FOS on Friday
www.collinsclan.co.uk/pages/Cars/goodwoodfos2005/source/dsc_2522.html
Their website is closed today so I imagine it must have been a Trackshare car
http://trackshare.co.uk/
http://trackshare.co.uk/
Does anyone know if it was a standard car or their 360 racecar? i.e. did the car have protection, (roll cage, bucket seats, etc)?
Curious as to whether the accident may have resulted in the same unfortunate outcome if the racecar was being used? It is was, then this is pure misfortune. I hope Matt recovers soon.
RIP to the deceased.
Although I know absolutely nothing of the accident, and do not know whether any other vehicles were involved, this may hopefully encourage others to pay more attention to track ettiquete on trackdays, after seeing what could happen.
Curious as to whether the accident may have resulted in the same unfortunate outcome if the racecar was being used? It is was, then this is pure misfortune. I hope Matt recovers soon.
RIP to the deceased.
Although I know absolutely nothing of the accident, and do not know whether any other vehicles were involved, this may hopefully encourage others to pay more attention to track ettiquete on trackdays, after seeing what could happen.
I know that Goodwood wants to preserve the look and feel with the revival, but frankly it is a bloody dangerous circuit!
In my opinion, and this is from someone who has run track days there, watched racing, and ridden/driven around the place.
Those bankings are hideously dangerous, there is no give as it is a solid banking. Yes it is similar to racing back in the 50's but this isn’t the 50's anymore.
Goodwood has sold itself out anyway. All the noise issues are a trade off for running the revival meet. No Sunday track sessions are allowed. 5 cars/bikes allowed on a 2.4 mile circuit. Unless you are driving a wind powered car that whispers its way around the circuit then you can get 10 cars on. Its extremely expensive. Approx £5k for the day to hire. Hell you can hire Catalyna for that! Or the Nurburgring!!
It is very fast, 160mph isn’t uncommon down Lavant straight, and going through the top section through fordwater, there isn’t much run off!
I understand that motorsport is dangerous, hell my public liability insurance premium reflected that, but for the sake of fashion they could help the situation.
If it wasn’t such a technical circuit that demands respect and gives great joy I would advocate to have the place changed. And as much as I hate nanny states and everything they stop, something needs to be done. Even the marshals are slow to react, most of them are sat in a car or on a small seat. They radio back to pit to put out flags rather than stick out the flag themselves. This almost cost me, if it hadn’t been for an intelligent person behind me, that noticed the marshal go to his radio that he realised something was wrong.
Having dealt with a fatality at the Nurburgring, I can sympathise with the organisers.
My thoughts are with the family, and also with Matt as I had the fortunate opportunity to meet him and get some welcomed tips. Also I love his home circuit!!!
In my opinion, and this is from someone who has run track days there, watched racing, and ridden/driven around the place.
Those bankings are hideously dangerous, there is no give as it is a solid banking. Yes it is similar to racing back in the 50's but this isn’t the 50's anymore.
Goodwood has sold itself out anyway. All the noise issues are a trade off for running the revival meet. No Sunday track sessions are allowed. 5 cars/bikes allowed on a 2.4 mile circuit. Unless you are driving a wind powered car that whispers its way around the circuit then you can get 10 cars on. Its extremely expensive. Approx £5k for the day to hire. Hell you can hire Catalyna for that! Or the Nurburgring!!
It is very fast, 160mph isn’t uncommon down Lavant straight, and going through the top section through fordwater, there isn’t much run off!
I understand that motorsport is dangerous, hell my public liability insurance premium reflected that, but for the sake of fashion they could help the situation.
If it wasn’t such a technical circuit that demands respect and gives great joy I would advocate to have the place changed. And as much as I hate nanny states and everything they stop, something needs to be done. Even the marshals are slow to react, most of them are sat in a car or on a small seat. They radio back to pit to put out flags rather than stick out the flag themselves. This almost cost me, if it hadn’t been for an intelligent person behind me, that noticed the marshal go to his radio that he realised something was wrong.
Having dealt with a fatality at the Nurburgring, I can sympathise with the organisers.
My thoughts are with the family, and also with Matt as I had the fortunate opportunity to meet him and get some welcomed tips. Also I love his home circuit!!!
With respect to all those involved but frankly this kind of outcome has been on the cards for a long time.
There are far too many people/companies who are prepared to take money off drivers (experienced or otherwise) and put them into situations that far outweigh the ability.
The very fact you need to have an instructor sat in the passenger seat tells the whole story about the drivers ability. The car was a challenge spec Ferrari 360 on one of the most dangerous circuits in the UK.
Instructors around the country need to wake up to this crazyness before one of them is killed - I can't believe anyone needs the £250 per day that badly. Its a disgraceful situation.
There are far too many people/companies who are prepared to take money off drivers (experienced or otherwise) and put them into situations that far outweigh the ability.
The very fact you need to have an instructor sat in the passenger seat tells the whole story about the drivers ability. The car was a challenge spec Ferrari 360 on one of the most dangerous circuits in the UK.
Instructors around the country need to wake up to this crazyness before one of them is killed - I can't believe anyone needs the £250 per day that badly. Its a disgraceful situation.
I dont think that is the problem.
There are many situations where you need to put yourself in a difficult position for money.
I can think of many jobs where i think the reward doesnt justify the risk, but unfortunately the bank manager doesnt see it the same way.
Attack Goodwood, for not keeping up with the times.
There are many situations where you need to put yourself in a difficult position for money.
I can think of many jobs where i think the reward doesnt justify the risk, but unfortunately the bank manager doesnt see it the same way.
Attack Goodwood, for not keeping up with the times.
p490kvp said:
Instructors around the country need to wake up to this crazyness before one of them is killed - I can't believe anyone needs the £250 per day that badly. Its a disgraceful situation.
I'm always amazed at how instructors can get into a car with a complete stranger, and be expected to get them up to serious speed within just a few laps, irrespective of the ability of the person driving.
It seems to me that many instructors DON'T do it for the £250 (or whatever), many of them do it as much for the pleasure of getting a novice to drive faster than he/she thought possible. (That, and the ego-trip when they take the wheel and show them how it's really done!!!)
And yes, it is only a matter of time before an instructor loses his/her life during a trackday. Let's hope that ARDS takes sufficient care of their close relatives when it happens. Somehow I doubt it, they seem to give absolutely bugger all support to the instructors who's fees keep it running.
sdd said:
Ultimately it has to be down to the individual, do you realyl think that if trakshare turned the guy away because they thought he might be beyond his ability he wouldn't just go and do the same thing with someone elses Ferrari, possibly less well prepped than the trakshare car which probably saved the instructors life.
Nobody knows enough about this incident to comment on an informed basis so throwing mud at Goodwood (barring the marshalls comment which I sympathise with in this specific case) isn't going to help, if you don't like it there adjust your driving accordingly, if that means to 'not at all' then so be it, go where you feel safe.
Far more people die through driving beyond their ability on the road than on track, this needs to be kept in perspective.
Stephen
Firstly I agree totally with GarrettMac - ARDS is a total waste of time.
But Stephen you are mis-guided. Regardless of the "facts" - a billy died on a trackday and I absolutely do not blame the instructor or Goodwood or even the people who rented the guy the car.
What I'm saying is that when you rent a 400bhp race car to a "novice" then is it any wonder that this is an outcome??
Regardless of whether the accident was driver error, machine failure - the point is I have many friends who are instructors and I am absolutely staggered that they are put in this position of total danger.
There needs to be put in place something that says enough is enough - rent people cars by all means but 400bhp+ race cars to novice track day drivers seems like an accident waiting to happen. Sadly with a mate of mine in the passenger seat.
Regardless of the "facts" - a billy died on a trackday and I absolutely do not blame the instructor or Goodwood or even the people who rented the guy the car.
What I'm saying is that when you rent a 400bhp race car to a "novice" then is it any wonder that this is an outcome??
-----------------------------------------
Please don't refer to the driver as a 'billy' or novice. He had driven performance cars most of his life. Have some respect, he is dead.
>> Edited by manhoo on Monday 4th July 09:37
What I'm saying is that when you rent a 400bhp race car to a "novice" then is it any wonder that this is an outcome??
-----------------------------------------
Please don't refer to the driver as a 'billy' or novice. He had driven performance cars most of his life. Have some respect, he is dead.
>> Edited by manhoo on Monday 4th July 09:37
As a regular at Bedford on corporate days I've heard that term many a time, and given the situations it's been said in I can't see it to be derogatory.
Given the write up in the person's local papers it seems that this person had owned high performance cars and was a racing fan. Clearly a tragic accident happened in progressing that interest, and it's a sobering thought.
The track driver training I've done has shown, despite owning high performance cars for many many years, that the skills of professional drivers that drive for a living like Mr Benett are much higher than people who occasionally do track days. That said, professional drivers are still killed on tracks.
Everyone knows the risks, but people are still prepared to take them, instructors, hire companies and "punters". I therefore agree with Phil's comments and many others that have been made, but I hope this single accident, compared to the thousands upon thousands of track days that haven't had anyone die, doesn't stop the ability for me to make a concious decision about the risk I put myself into.
J
Given the write up in the person's local papers it seems that this person had owned high performance cars and was a racing fan. Clearly a tragic accident happened in progressing that interest, and it's a sobering thought.
The track driver training I've done has shown, despite owning high performance cars for many many years, that the skills of professional drivers that drive for a living like Mr Benett are much higher than people who occasionally do track days. That said, professional drivers are still killed on tracks.
Everyone knows the risks, but people are still prepared to take them, instructors, hire companies and "punters". I therefore agree with Phil's comments and many others that have been made, but I hope this single accident, compared to the thousands upon thousands of track days that haven't had anyone die, doesn't stop the ability for me to make a concious decision about the risk I put myself into.
J
I'd certainly consider Goodwood a dangerous circuit, some more pro-active safety thought may well have saved this poor soul.
I for one have refrained from trackdays there in cars without full protection.
The term Billys is just a name for punters or customers amongst the instructing fraternity
I for one have refrained from trackdays there in cars without full protection.
The term Billys is just a name for punters or customers amongst the instructing fraternity
I can give an instructors perspective. It is quite easy to instruct in a low powered (up to 200bhp) front wheel drive car. Grip levels are quite low and the car gives a lot of notice when you are nearing the point of no return. It is relatively easy to reach over and grab the wheel to correct or prevent a slide and things tend to happen at a gentle pace that is ideal for a learning experience. At 400bhp with a racing chasis - even set at full soft - An instructor effectively uses all of his skill just keeping the punter on the island genuine instruction is secondary to self preservation. Things happen too quickly and the sensory overload on the driver is such that propper instruction is all but impossible.
Instuctors in these tyrpes of cars are very brave and very skilled. To do it at Goodwood where a small mistake can be terribly punished is almost bloody heroic......
My Severe condolances to the Driver and his family. I hope thet Matt recovers speedily and that the experience will not haunt him for long..
Steve R
Instuctors in these tyrpes of cars are very brave and very skilled. To do it at Goodwood where a small mistake can be terribly punished is almost bloody heroic......
My Severe condolances to the Driver and his family. I hope thet Matt recovers speedily and that the experience will not haunt him for long..
Steve R
manhoo said:
Please don't refer to the driver as a 'billy' or novice. He had driven performance cars most of his life. Have some respect, he is dead.
The word billy/novice has been taken by you to mean something disrespectful - it was mean't as a general statement.
An individual that owns high powered road cars says more about the wallet than it does driving skill. There are very many high worth car enthusiasts who either trackday or race (even Le Mans 24hr isn’t immune) – and whilst it is certainly true that everyone is capable of the biggest shunts – it surely can’t be a surprise that when the less experienced get into difficulties the focus is more upon their ability.
I can understand why to some my posts seem insensitive but this accident highlights a real issue which needs to be addressed.
Namely the reletively new concept of renting competition cars to trackday customers whose ability to drive the machinary is completely unchecked. Worse than that is the lack of thought given to the welfare of the poor instructor who is bolted in beside said customer.
By and large instructors are either struggling race drivers past/present/future or enthusiasts who enjoy driving and get pleasure from the job. Sadly for them their ability to earn money is limited to around 8 months of the year – due to the winter break, and the number of employers is limited. Therefore when asked to sit alongside Mr Billy in a Ferrari 360 race car at Goodwood, saying no is difficult because of the financial pressures.
Quite what the instructor is to do when a customer oversteps the mark is a mystery to me. There are usually no instructor engine cut off, 2nd brake pedal or any other control device – usually its just a set of frantic verbal commands and the hand brake as a last resort.
Perhaps the time has come for ARDS to say no more. Take an instructor no problem but it is forbidden to have an instructor in a rented race car – because lets face it if you need an instructor then why are these people in race cars in the first place?? Especially at Goodwood, in a rented car that gets less respect than your own £100K car.
Another element of question is the physical condition of these customers. Driving a race car – especially on a quick circuit like Goodwood – is mentally tough. I’d say that most people will mentally drained after 15 mins of driving. Then what of the physical strain? The heat, the noise, the physical effort required to drive these kind of cars is not easy – yet we seem happy for people to drive several hours a day in these things – people who are not in the best physical shape to start with.
Its one thing to drive enthusiastically with friends or family in your own sportscar – however powerful. Its quite another to drive in a race car, rented for the day on the basis you can drive to the limit of your ability and everything is ok because you have an instructor alongside.
Trackdays and the like are supposed to be fun – not a place to get killed. Sadly with the many corporate opportunities to drive flat out (notably Palmers) it is easy to disrespect what is a dangerous activity.
>> Edited by p490kvp on Monday 4th July 16:27
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