fatal crash at Goodwood today
Discussion
p490kvp said:Very true. Palmer, even with second brake pedal and kill switch still has quite a few accidents, and certainly the focus has changed over the years, especially since the early Brunters days when one of my collegues rolled one of the cars... Knowing that certainly makes me think.
Trackdays and the like are supposed to be fun – not a place to get killed. Sadly with the many corporate opportunities to drive flat out (notably Palmers) it is easy to disrespect what is a dangerous activity.
J
p490kvp said:
a lot of sense
The phrase "all the gear, no idea" is sadly becoming the norm at trackdays these days. A large wallet provides absolutely no indication of ability, as Phil already mentioned. It does however often bring arrogance and an elitist atitude towards other drivers sharing the same track space.
Doing trackdays or racing bikes, on the other hand, although demonstrably more dangerous, does not tend to attact the same sort of crowd. It's more about what you do on the bike, not the bike itself....
I am amazed that absolutely NO form of scrutineering takes place on trackdays, even of helmets.
Taking to a track other than when racing is becoming a large guessing game as to whether you may become involved in someone else's accident - most of the time with no 3rd party cover if someone is to get injured (or worse)
If you are racing, then you are racing, you are taking part in motorsport, not a leisure activity....
Perhaps it IS time for some form of basic ARDS type test - as a bare minimum it will teach a lot of idiots what flags are and how to interpret them
Rant over
Its a plain fact that you cant scrutineer any part of the car/person. You can stop them from going out, but you cant say what is safe to go out in/with.
I wanted to check all of the bikes over before they went out on one of my track days, but I was stopped for two reasons.
1. The time would have been too long, for a start what do you check? what is considered as a quick check and is that good enough? is something i consider safe what someone else would consider dangerous, and visa-versa
2. If they crash because something was wrong, you will be liable. So rather than run the risk of losing everything you dont bother. Sad really but in this world of "no win no fee" there is no helpng some people!
I wanted to check all of the bikes over before they went out on one of my track days, but I was stopped for two reasons.
1. The time would have been too long, for a start what do you check? what is considered as a quick check and is that good enough? is something i consider safe what someone else would consider dangerous, and visa-versa
2. If they crash because something was wrong, you will be liable. So rather than run the risk of losing everything you dont bother. Sad really but in this world of "no win no fee" there is no helpng some people!
Can't we tone down the comments on here?
It seems no one on here seems to know what's happened. This thread, to me, does seem to have decended into a comment shop about how c**p some drivers are, but have enough money to play with, with more than just a passing hint that this may be leveled at this unfortunate person (excluding the people that have made clear they aren't).
What is clear is that this seems to not have been a normal trackday, but one of those "redletter" day things. Clearly the instructor is well know and well respected, and the message from his girlfriend is that he is recovering well.
I'm also sure that the organisiers didn't set out to kill someone - clearly the opposite is true, so perhaps we should spare a thought for what the people involved are going through?
What isn't know is was it a mechanical failure, a human failure, or some third party (animal, oil etc.) action that caused the crash? Until that is known, I think that the speculation is best left for the pub.
In no way should that stop people discussing general terms, but this thread did start announcing the death of another human being, and perhaps it would be appropiate to keep the comments to an appropiate level on this particular thread? Perhaps start another thread for the more sensitive discussions?
J
>> Edited by joust on Monday 4th July 22:35
It seems no one on here seems to know what's happened. This thread, to me, does seem to have decended into a comment shop about how c**p some drivers are, but have enough money to play with, with more than just a passing hint that this may be leveled at this unfortunate person (excluding the people that have made clear they aren't).
What is clear is that this seems to not have been a normal trackday, but one of those "redletter" day things. Clearly the instructor is well know and well respected, and the message from his girlfriend is that he is recovering well.
I'm also sure that the organisiers didn't set out to kill someone - clearly the opposite is true, so perhaps we should spare a thought for what the people involved are going through?
What isn't know is was it a mechanical failure, a human failure, or some third party (animal, oil etc.) action that caused the crash? Until that is known, I think that the speculation is best left for the pub.
In no way should that stop people discussing general terms, but this thread did start announcing the death of another human being, and perhaps it would be appropiate to keep the comments to an appropiate level on this particular thread? Perhaps start another thread for the more sensitive discussions?
J
>> Edited by joust on Monday 4th July 22:35
victormeldrew said:
Perhaps start another thread for the more sensitive discussions?
I think you meant insenstive discussions.
Condolancies to those affected by this tragedy. Lets just hope there is no knee jerk reaction as a result which will benefit no-one.
Exactly!
There but for the Grace of God...
Condolences to all concerned.
joust said:
This thread, to me, does seem to have decended into a comment shop about how c**p some drivers are
I'm not sure that's the case, most of the thread has talked about the vulnerability of the instructor.
Yes, it was a 'Red Letter' day, with a very fast F360, which would have cost the driver a couple of grand. The instructor, on the other hand, would have got, probably £250. Assuming the driver was sufficiently wealthy to afford this trackday we can also assume that he had a pretty high level of live insurance, and that the family he leaves behind are 'taken care of' (assuming the insurance company will pay out).
The situation for the instructor, on the other hand, is very different. As a pro Racing Driver, every insurance policy he takes out is loaded MASSIVELY with huge levels of risk - the irony being that the instructor pays more in premiums and ends up getting less cover. ARDS will be no use, since they are not a 'union'. This person's career might just be over, either through the physical or physchological damage.
Of course, this pales in comparison to what the driver has lost, and the grief of his family. People need to be aware that they are not just responsible to themselves - they have a human being sitting in the seat beside them, and that person is trying their very hardest to help them, and for that they deserve respect, recognition, and protection
I think we would all agree that this incident is a tragic one particularly for the family of the poor driver that was killed and also for the instructor who was injured.
I have no idea why the accident happened and agree that we should await the final hearing outcome before jumping to conclusions.
Driving high powered cars at full chat on a race track whether for fun or in competetion is by its very nature a risky business. We weigh up the risks before participating and have to accept the consequnces if something unfortunate happens. The driver of this car will have known that and so did the instructor, nobody forced either of them to get into that car on the day.
Just be careful out there.
I have no idea why the accident happened and agree that we should await the final hearing outcome before jumping to conclusions.
Driving high powered cars at full chat on a race track whether for fun or in competetion is by its very nature a risky business. We weigh up the risks before participating and have to accept the consequnces if something unfortunate happens. The driver of this car will have known that and so did the instructor, nobody forced either of them to get into that car on the day.
Just be careful out there.
paulburrell said:
We weigh up the risks before participating and have to accept the consequnces if something unfortunate happens. The driver of this car will have known that and so did the instructor, nobody forced either of them to get into that car on the day.
As a general view I disagree with that take from the instructors side.
I've been motor racing since 1991 and since that time I've never met an instructor who is makes big money. I'd reckon the best are making £20K pa (pre-tax) and those guys are getting the best manufacturer work, topped up with 12-14hour days doing general instructing at the bigger cirucits.
These guys have to take the work as it is offered - and the guys who are employing them know it.
The situation needs to be controlled by 3rd parties completely independantly otherwise - as sure as you are reading this - sooner or later another instructor will get hurt.
Condolences to the families involved.
One thing no-one here has mentioned and it is worth mentioning is that high performance road cars were not designed to be tracked. They are simply not safe enough. A basic seatbelt and airbag is not enough when cars are being taken way above the limits reached on the roads.
This is why race cars have four/six point harnesses, roll cages, proper fuel tanks, cut off switches etc etc etc. They are also regularly scrutineered. And this still does not stop people hurt, but at least provides a decent level of safety.
A simple annual service is not enough for a car that is tracked.
Track days may be a nice and cheap way for punters to get their kicks and improve driving skills but there is not enough control of these activities as they do not come under any control from a professional body that I know of (or at least they werent a few years ago).
Im not saying that tracks days are wrong as they are at least safer than taking a car to its limits on the road, but some basic standards need to be set and adhered to.
davyboy said:
This was a race car.
I did not know that. If so then if it had been a standard car it could have been even worse with not one fatality but possibly two.
I didnt say race cars were safe either, but at least give you more of a chance.
>> Edited by jedi on Friday 8th July 14:29
I personally really like Goodwood. However, I am acutely aware that Fordwater is a life threatenting section of the track. I never drive anywhere near my limit simply because of plain and simple fact that if you do come off you'll be going at least 100mph and you'll hit the bank.
It would not surprise me that soon they will be forced to remove the bank or make it safer, or run the risk of insurance companies boycotting events held there.
Based on the small volume of use at Goodwood it wouldn't come as a suprise to find it as potentially dangerous as the Nurburgring if you compare the crashes vs cars/day.
Its a sad state of affairs becuase we all know that if this happened in F1 changes would happen almost over night.
It would not surprise me that soon they will be forced to remove the bank or make it safer, or run the risk of insurance companies boycotting events held there.
Based on the small volume of use at Goodwood it wouldn't come as a suprise to find it as potentially dangerous as the Nurburgring if you compare the crashes vs cars/day.
Its a sad state of affairs becuase we all know that if this happened in F1 changes would happen almost over night.
Coco H said:
There was a large accident at Goodwood last saturday (2nd. Just a single car rolling off and ending upside down. The driver was ok.
Errr no it was not a large accident. Yes a car spun off and rolled and yes the driver was OK but let's put this into context. It was a sprint i.e. competition day. It is not uncommon in any form of Motorsport for a car to come off the track.
A terrible tragedy, my sincere condolensces.
When we take our cars on the track (or take someone elses as in this case) we know there are risks. I've used this company before and they were impeccable from a saftey perspective. Their cars certainly safer than my griff!
But I still take my griff on the track as I did this Saturday to put a huge smile on my face, as presumably did this poor guy.
I hope this thought keeps me from exceeding my limit!
My thoughts are with his family.
When we take our cars on the track (or take someone elses as in this case) we know there are risks. I've used this company before and they were impeccable from a saftey perspective. Their cars certainly safer than my griff!
But I still take my griff on the track as I did this Saturday to put a huge smile on my face, as presumably did this poor guy.
I hope this thought keeps me from exceeding my limit!
My thoughts are with his family.
Coco H said:
There was a large accident at Goodwood last saturday (2nd. Just a single car rolling off and ending upside down. The driver was ok.
Goodwood is a very fast circuit.
Very sad story
My first post in this forum. With reference to the above "Large Accident" I was the second marshal on the scene, the driver was fine and the incident was immediatly attended by Goodwood Rescue, an hour later the driver (Ken from Farnborough Motor Club) was driving the "modified Pug" around the carpark and having a laugh about the whole thing. With reference to the fatal accident, I know many of the team who where working that day and attended the incident. There see to be many on here who are very quick to point the finger of blame without knowing the full facts. The ferrari involved was fitted with a full cage and safety gear, the fully equiped Goodwood rescue ambulance was in immediate attendance and was supported by the county ambulance very quickly. I marshal at Goodwood a lot, I have marshalled at lots of rallies and circuits and personally feel that the comments made in this forum thread are an insult to Goodwood circuit the family of the deceased and the highly trained and professional marshals and staff. AT THE END OF THE DAY GET YOUR FACTS CORRECT, YOU DONT KNOW WHO WILL READ THIS FORUM.
Simon Williams
Goodwood Marshals Club
PS. Motorsport is dangerous, those involved know the risks and sign to say so !!
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